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Viewing topic "a few questions about yamaha S70XS, Motif, MM and MO6 arpeggios and styles"

     
Posted on: June 21, 2010 @ 07:14 PM
makifator
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Joined  06-21-2010
status: Regular

Hello!

-what is a difference between style, arpeggio and patterns?
-is it possible to make custom arpeggios and change them in real-time with left-hand harmonization? If yes, what fingering methods are supported?
-is it possible to make custom styles and change them in real-time with left-hand harmonization? If yes, what fingering methods are supported?
-is it possible to give an parallel comparation on those features between S70XS, Motif, MM and MO6 series?

Thanks a lot!

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Posted on: June 22, 2010 @ 12:56 AM
Bad_Mister
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-what is a difference between style, arpeggio and patterns?

A “Style” in Yamaha-speak is used as in a genre or style of music.
A “Style” is a variety of accompaniment and rhythmic backing patterns in a variety of different musical genres including pop, jazz, and many others. The Style features Auto Accompaniment, letting you produce automatic accompaniment playback simply by playing “chords” with your left hand. This lets you automatically recreate the sound of a full band or orchestra—even if you’re playing by yourself. STYLES are typically found in arranger workstations and portable keyboards where you can have as many as 8 PARTS in the accompaniment: A percussionist, a drummer, a bass player, two rhythmic chordal backing parts, a pad (strings, organ, or choir) and two phrase parts (brass stabs, or chordal riffs).

An “Arpeggio” as found in the Motif XS and the S-series XS, for example is described as follows: An arpeggio automatically plays a variety of sequenced phrases in response to the keys you play. This function is especially powerful with Drum Voices—letting you easily call up various rhythm patterns at the touch of a key, and providing instant inspiration for song creation and performance. With Normal Voices, Arpeggio changes harmonically according to the chords you play, helping you as you compose or perform. Up to four Arpeggios can be running simultaneously, and of course, in perfect sync. Velocity control, Accent Phrase and Random SFX features—as well as the eight panel Knobs—give you even greater expressive, realtime control over Arpeggio playback.

A “Pattern” in Yamaha-speak (as found in the Motif-series): PATTERN mode functions let you craft different rhythmic sections and riffs as individual elements—which you can easily and intuitively combine in real time to create full rhythm tracks. The Sections you create can be combined together in Pattern Chains, and these Chains can be conveniently converted to Song data.

-is it possible to make custom arpeggios and change them in real-time with left-hand harmonization? If yes, what fingering methods are supported?

You can only make your own arpeggios in the Motif-series (as it has a recording sequencer). “fingering methods” is a term that would address “STYLES”. The arpeggios you can make with the Motif XS would be controlled by one of three different CONVERT TYPES:

normal: The Arpeggio is played back using only the played note and its octave notes.

fixed: Playing any note(s) will trigger the same MIDI sequence data.

org notes: (original notes) Basically same as “fixed” with the exception that the Arpeggio playback notes differ according to the played chord… Major, minor, dominant, etc.

-is it possible to make custom styles and change them in real-time with left-hand harmonization? If yes, what fingering methods are supported?

Not in any of the keyboards you mentioned. STYLES again are found in arranger workstations like the Tyros 3, the PSRS-910, S710, etc. Not the S-series XS, the Motif XS, the MO or the MM. And although there are some very modified “styles” in the MM6/MM8 they are principally Drum and Bass accompaniment - not the full blown 8-part backing band as found in the PSR and Tyros family of products. I should mention, however, that the MM does follow the “Multi-fingered” and “Full Keyboard” fingering recognition system as found in the arrangers.

-is it possible to give an parallel comparation on those features between S70XS, Motif, MM and MO6 series

The Motif XS is a music production workstation (128 note polyphony, 8 Element VOICE architecture) - complete with a 16-track recording MIDI sequencer and the Integrated Sampling Sequencer (when you add optional DIMMs) ... capable of recording audio synchronized with your MIDI sequences. And this includes the ability to create and load new waveforms. There are some 6633 arpeggios and since it has a recording MIDI sequencer you can create your own arpeggios.

The S90XS/S70XS have the same synthesizer tone engine as the Motif XS (128 note polyphony, 8 Element VOICE architecture) with an additional acoustic piano (and 192MB of Flash ROM) but does not have the on-board Integrated Sampling Sequencer. The S-series feature a PLAYBACK sequencer with 16 PARTS. So for about $1500-1600 less (retail) the S90XS/S70XS gives you the powerful sound set of the Motif XS. There are some 6772 arpeggios.

The MO6/MO8 are Motif-lite, if you will. They have a full fledged MIDI sequencer with the same powerful PATTERN mode/SONG modes as found in the Motif-series. (64 note polyphony, 4 Element VOICE architecture). It features the same exact wave ROM and 1787 arpeggios found in the second generation Motif ES.

The MM6/MM8 have a sound set derived from the original Motif Classic, combined with some of the arpeggios found in the second generatation Motif ES. There, simply put, is no instrument that sounds as good for the money. The MM feature a ‘SONG Recorder’ - you select a PATTERN (drum and bass backing) and you play along while the Song recorder documents what you play. You can overdub - as there are 8 tracks plust the Pattern track.

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Posted on: June 22, 2010 @ 11:21 AM
makifator
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Thanks for quick reply. However, I still need those answers:
-If I do not need any particular style or stylefile but still want to organize my recorded sequences in sync groups that can playback and change according to some fingering methods, can this be done on Motif or MM or S70XS og MO6?
-what is difference between harmonic variations one can achieve with fingering methods on styles and fingering methods on several arpeggios in sync?

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Posted on: June 24, 2010 @ 06:13 AM
Bad_Mister
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-If I do not need any particular style or stylefile but still want to organize my recorded sequences in sync groups that can playback and change according to some fingering methods, can this be done on Motif or MM or S70XS og MO6?

Don’t understand the question “organize my recorded sequences in sync groups” ??? no idea what that means, sorry.

-what is difference between harmonic variations one can achieve with fingering methods on styles and fingering methods on several arpeggios in sync?

Again I don’t understand the question. “difference between harmonic variations” - don’t have any idea what you are looking for, again, sorry.

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Posted on: June 24, 2010 @ 10:52 AM
makifator
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I am just trying to find a reason to by one Yamaha keyboard but need to know difference between styles and arpeggios because both systems are based on midifiles in sync and it looks to me that both systems change harmonic content of those midifiles based on “left hand notes”. Is this correct?
I prefer jamming and realtime song development. I do not care about particular styles but would like to change harmonic content of my midi-ideas in realtime. I would like to record a short musical idea and change it through accords in real time. At the same time i would like to influence songstructure in real time, to pick some ideas and experiment with them in realtime.
Then, what is ia basic difference between those two systems? I can not by both Tyros AND Motif but just one of them.
I I want to record and use my musical ideas, listen to them together with other ideas, change them harmonicly by playing different notes on keyboard,what do I loose if I choose Tyros and what do I loose if I choose Motif?

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Posted on: June 24, 2010 @ 04:58 PM
Bad_Mister
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Then simply put… (and forgive some of the gross generalizations that follow)

The Tyros 3 (and keyboard arranger workstation of its kind) are optimized to create music (yes), but they lean toward the performance of “other people’s music”. That is, you call up a specific known genre (style) of music and you use the left-hand accompaniment (chord intelligence) to outline the chord changes while you play (perform) the melody on top. This is ideal for playing existing music compositions. Simply select one of the hundreds of already assembled musical styles and play.

The Motif XS (a synthesizer workstaion) is optimized to create music (yes), but it leans toward the creation of “original music”. Rather than having the different arpeggios pre-grouped into styles necessarily, the arpeggios are available as individual phrases. These can be used individually to write data concerning a specific part.

Can you use a Tyros 3 type keyboard to create original music? ...well, of course, you can.
Can you use a Motif XS type keyboard to perform “other people’s music? ...well, of course, you can.

I’m just suggesting that the Tyros 3 content is all about playing (quickly and easily) “cover” songs. If I needed to recreate a series of popular songs quickly… the Tyros 3 has a feature called MUSIC FINDER DATABASE. This will give you, perhaps a clearer picture of what I’m saying when I say “optimized” to be a certain thing: The Music Finder Database is a listing of Song titles that you can search through (you can even add your own content) - when you locate the song title you want to perform (there can be literally hundreds and hundreds of titles in the data base...) you can select it. What this does is select an appropriate Tyros 3 STYLE (with as many as 8 backing instruments), selects the correct time signature, sets the correct Tempo according to the definitive recording of the title, and all this is automatically setup. It can also select appropriate VOICES to play the melody, chorus and bridge… You simply have to pick a key and start performing.

The shear amount of content and the massive archive of musical data here is staggering. The amount of time it saves the user is astronomical. You can sound like a fully professional band or orchestra with extreme speed and absolute ease. No doubt - that is where the Tyros 3 optimizes its focus. And the Tyros 3 customer wouldn’t have it any other way!!!

The amount of content in the Motif XS is also massive but the focus is clearly toward someone wanting to mix and match the content, rather than calling it up in pre-packaged, well organized items (as is the case with the MUSIC FINDER DATABASE). Could I prepare the same song in the Motif XS? - absolutely. But I would be putting it together myself - and the customer for the XS wouldn’t have it any other way!!!

So take all the great music content and organize it so that it is like having access to a great roster of individual players that you can call up for a session and you then control using the chord intelligence function of the arpeggiators. Of the 6633 individual arpeggios in the Motif XS approximately 1900 of them are drum grooves; approximately 1300 of them are guitar arps; some 1200 of them are bass arps, etc. However, they are not organized in pre-packaged styles.

Can you group them together so that they play all the same kind of thing as in the Tyros 3? Yes I guess so… but then why not get a Tyros 3? Its already done.

They are purposefully individual in the XS because in writing your OWN music, you may not always want to be categorized so specifically by genre.

You might find it just what you need to combine a R&B;Rhythm Guitar arp with Reggae Bass line, on top of a Drum ‘n’ Bass percussion groove. Or maybe you want a rock power chord guitar along with a simple Chill bass line, and you want to create your own drum groove w/Latin percussion. The data is accessible individually and can be used to “track” (record to the sequencer), individually or in small ensembles.

So the difference is focus and the difference is in how you access the massive amount of musical content that Yamaha is giving you. Yamaha virtually invented the auto-bass-chord accompaniment engine - we also designed the Motif XS type workstation with all of its Song production tools. We know the difference - the Motif XS is not trying to be a Tyros 3 and the Tyros 3 is not trying to be a Motif XS. They have some similar things (great sounds, great content, etc.) but the focus is what makes all the difference.

Again, forgive my gross generalities - because there is certainly a possibility to use either to write original music and there is certainly a possibility to use either to cover other people’s music - NO DOUBT, many do just that. But clearly it is a matter of the presentation of the content and the focus of your personal workflow.

You should really sit down and spend sometime with them both. Your questions show you are trying to find out this difference - only you know what you need from a keyboard. We make both - because we recognize the difference. They would not be two different products if they did the same exact thing the same exact way.

Read through their manuals you will get a feel for what features are prominent. Best thing is to sit and play them both then decide. If you have a local dealer - ask when they are going to have a Yamaha speciailist or event at their store. Request one - they will not necessarily have one, if you don’t ask. Back in the early day of synthesizers these were common, very common - you have stores thinking no one is interested in such events any longer - so ask… it cannot hurt.

Hope that helps.

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Posted on: June 24, 2010 @ 05:59 PM
makifator
Total Posts:  36
Joined  06-21-2010
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WHAT A FANTASTIC EXPLANATION!!!!!
I wish I found your words on Yamaha start-page, Bad_Mister!
Anyway, now when I know the difference, I need some more answers, just while you are in the good mood:
Lets forget that Motif has so many arpeggios. I want to make a music “from scratch”.
So,I find/make an interesting sound, an short musical idea suddenly occurs, I store it in a midi buffer/sequencer as a custom made arpeggio. Than I find another sound and make another melody that sounds good played together with the first melody.

Can S70XS, Motif, MM or MO6 :
-trigg in real-time both lines as one fill-in any place during song development or sync to first incomming step/beat?
-trigg one of those lines as a fill-in any place during song development or sync to first incomming step/beat?
-harmonize one of those lines while second line is played back only as original recorded.
-Can THIS situation be loaded as a fill-in any time during song development or sync to first incomming step/beat?
-Can this be done both real-time AND on time-line as on traditional sequencers, copy/paste method?
-how many lines can be organized as one “triggerable group”?
-how many “triggerable groups” can be a part of the running “scene”, ready to be triggered any time during the performance or sync to first incomming step/beat?
-can this “scene” be saved as a file?
-can several arbitrary “triggerable groups” be triggered together any time during the performance or sync to first incomming step/beat?
-can one use several external midi controllers to harmonize each line independently?

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Posted on: June 25, 2010 @ 10:07 AM
Bad_Mister
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The S70XS, Motif XS, and MO6 do not have a FILL-IN button that is an arranger feature sorry. So again I’m not clear what you are missing in all of this.

Can an arp be programmed to sound like a Fill-in - well, yes.
But because you use the specific term fill-in and that is a specific type of arranger function - where you press the button, the particular music phrase plays, with multiple parts all executing the same coordinated musical flourish, and then returns to the basic groove. The S, the Motif, the MO, they do not do that. While the arrangers do that and are designed to do that - and have volumes of different genre related and organized fill-ins that do just that. They are even customizible within the structure as defined by the provided content.

Please, at this point go play the keyboards. You can answer your own questions based on your own expectations. At this point all you will do is misconstrue what I describe - the best answers will be found by you sitting down at one and spending a half hour with each. Trust me.

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Posted on: June 25, 2010 @ 10:19 AM
makifator
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The reason I ask questions on this forum is that nearest yamaha distributor is about 1000 km from here. I used term “fill-in” as a general musical term, the term that existed long before auto-accompaniment was invented.
Bad_Mister, can you .please, answer my questions by using “fill-in” as a general musical term, not as a specific “fill-in” used by yamaha in auto-accompaniment keyboards.

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Posted on: June 26, 2010 @ 09:45 AM
Bad_Mister
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I probably could but I don’t think it would matter. You are using the terms trying to make a decision (or better, have me make a decision for you) that really only you can make.

If the 1000km trip is not possible I highly recommend that you download the manuals for the products in question and try and read through the Start Guides in each so you get a feel for what each is about. There are plenty of videos (even online, for free) that will give you this information.

In general - if you want to “make your own” - I recommend the Motif XS
- if you want to play “other people’s music” - I recommend an arranger like the Tyros 3.

The reason I mention “Fill-in” (and I know the term existed before Yamaha :) used it) is that this is a specific area of difference. You used the term, and I’m fairly sure not by accident, you know that it is an arranger keyboard terminology, I don’t think for a minute you used it by chance.

But I also know that on an arranger it is very, very intuitive to recall a fill-in and have it do what a fill-in does (transition between sections, moving from Section A to Section B for example). I also know I would not recommend to someone to attempt to create and record a one measure or two measure fill-in and use it in real time on a synth workstation like a Motif XS… Not as a separate entity for real time recall. It is very difficult to record a 1 measure Section in isolation. Mostly our brains don’t work that way…

Having the advantage of having actually played both types of keyboard - it is not something I spend much time thinking about. I’ll say it again, you have so many (and I mean many) expectations/requirements about how you want to work, yet you insist on trying to find out if this keyboard or that works exactly like you anticipate. This is difficult. Because although you can create music on either - it is impossible to know will really make you the most comfortable.

On the Motif XS, when it comes to Fill-ins, you would (more practically speaking) work out your SECTION A, say it is the main Verse, and say it is 8 measures in length… you would probably work it so that measure 8 or both measure 7 and 8 were recorded as a fill-in - because
1) there is no dedicated FILL-IN button.
2) for sanity’s sake you need to do the actually fill-in in context of the musical section.

It would be problematical to create a 7 measure Section, press a button during measure 7 so that you call up the fill-in, then press another during the 1 measure fill-in to call up the next Section. This type of thing (as I said in the previous post) is much easier to do on a keyboard designed to automatically play the fill-in SECTION once and move on to a pre-designated next SECTION.

In fact the way the original data is created is to record the data in a linear record fashion (SONG) and then subdivide it into more useable Sections. This is how you would go about it on the Motif XS - record your music in a SONG then divide it into individual real time recallable SECTIONS.

If you get an arranger, you would have to record your fill-ins to replace already existing fill-ins (be they 1 measure or more). Again it is a matter of focus.

Additionally:
Can you create a one measure fill-in Section on a Motif XS? Yes.
Would it be practical to use that in real time? No and that is my point.

You would (practically speaking) find another way to do. And since this is a specific requirement of yours (if it is a deal breaker) then I say you better go with the keyboard with a FILL-IN button - by the way, Yamaha used the term Fill-in fully aware that the term exists in music (I think that is the point) and so did you! :)
And so did I. :)

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Posted on: June 26, 2010 @ 10:51 AM
makifator
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Thanks again for your patience, Bad_Mister.
In this video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WKn-ElQE0NQ&feature=related
Bert changes apreggio from 3min 33sec to 3min 38sec and it sounds like he triggers a fill-in. Can I use my own ideas instead of those Bert used? 

from my point of view, any midi buffer can be a fill-in buffer. as long as a device can trigg two independent midi-buffers independently. It only requires that midi-notes from second midi-buffer temporarily mute note-ons from previously started midi-buffer. Playback of this “fill-in” buffer should start at first incoming beat and when the buffer is reproduced then muted notes from previously muted buffer unmutes and playback from this buffer continues. Does this mean that Motif can not trigg two midi buffers independently? But Bert does something similar. Can you explain why those 5 seconds of demonstration sounds like a fill-in to me. What did I miss in this video?

thanks

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Posted on: June 27, 2010 @ 11:19 AM
Bad_Mister
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I don’t know what your use of the term “MIDI buffer” is referring to. Sorry.

You can defintiely do a fill-in on either keyboard but my question is how you want to use the data. And that is the point I’ve been trying to get through to you. If your goal is to write a finished piece of music the synth workstation and the arranger workstation are two methods to do this. If you want to ‘perform’ as in a “one-man band keyboard” type function where you reach up and press a button and a fill-in plays (doesn’t matter if you wrote the fill-in or the professionals at Yamaha wrote the fill-in) if you require this type of real time ‘performance’ I’m saying the arranger workstation is desigend for this. That is its forte.

If your ultimate goal is to complete a musical composition, then the synth workstation has some advantages that would be of interest. As the arpeggio data is laid out so that it serves as inspiration and helps you overcome writer’s block. It helps you assemble realistic drum grooves, hyper realistic guitar and bass lines - and you can use them to transfer these musical parts to the sequencer (constructing your recorded composition).

I’m not you, and cannot guess just how important it is to you that you be able to reach up, in real time, press a button, and have a fill-in occur. If that is your ultimate goal - Tyros3

If your ultimate goal is the ‘finished product’, then the Motif XS and its workflow can serve you well.

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Posted on: June 27, 2010 @ 05:43 PM
makifator
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Reading a manual and looking at videos was not enough before I asked this forum.
Thanks for your time, Bad_Mister, I have completed my opinion on the subject.

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