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Viewing topic "New Generation Yamaha Workstation in October!"

     
Posted on: September 08, 2023 @ 09:09 PM
nchrist
Total Posts:  457
Joined  07-10-2009
status: Enthusiast

Woot! Hopefully, it will have AN1X-style synth, 8-op FM, full-on sequencing and sampling like on the Roland Fantom, etc.

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Posted on: September 09, 2023 @ 05:15 PM
lastmonk
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Total Posts:  367
Joined  12-17-2013
status: Enthusiast
nchrist - 08 September 2023 09:09 PM

Woot! Hopefully, it will have AN1X-style synth, 8-op FM, full-on sequencing and sampling like on the Roland Fantom, etc.

AN1X doesn’t really add any sonic capability to Montage.  Also it already has FM-X.

Subtractive synth techniques can already be applied to AWM-2, which already has Sine, Square, Pulse, Triangle, Noise wave forms, and envelopes, filters, etc.  Adding some method to generate those same wave forms using virtual analog, would not enhance the work flow of the Montage, or give it any new sonic possibilites.

On the other hand, adding a few physical modeling synthesis models, eg, strings, brass, and wind instruments would dramatically increase sonic possibilities of the Montage.

Adding modules such as:

Physical Modelling Synthesis

Contrary to popular opinion sampling synthesis is the state of the art. And AWM2 does an awesome job with it.  Physical modeling would be the perfect complement to AWM2, FM-X.  If you really want to see more sonic power and musical expression added to the Montage, then hope for an update of the:

Yamaha’s Physical Modelling Engine

In addition to this, like you posted, they should add full on sequencing, pattern sequencing, and full on sampling to the new instrument.

It should include support for Midi 2.0.  At the very least this would allow us to have a 32 track sequencer, with more sequencer memory.  16 track audio recording with basic audio editing capabilities.

A HDMI out port on the back so we can work with large screens when necessary and also HDMI out would support Montage Youtbue streamers, teachers, tutorials, etc.

The ability to name scenes and clear scenes, copy scenes between patterns, or songs.  This could easily be accomplished with Scene jobs.

A bonafide parameter editor that gives complete computer access to all parameters and a editor that includes the ability to to edit sequences, and audio tracks remotely on the computer.

In other words the new Montage should be a proper complete ‘Music Production Synthesizer’

Although Yamaha owns Steinberg they should cut the Cubase chord, and make Montage X be the best production synthesizer it can be.

The Roland Fantom and Korg Nautilus and Kurzweil k2700, even the Korg PA5x are knocking it out of the park.

The current Montage does not live up to the Motif XF.  While Yamaha did improve it with pattern sequencing and the new Smart Morph feature.  The Pattern sequencer on the Montage supports 8 scenes or sections (Motif XF supports 16 sections) Smart Morph is a nice X/Y Pad for FM Parameters, But Motif has an X/Y Pad app for the IPad with a much larger control surface area.  Montage added Motion Control and the Super Knob, But Motif already had Controller Arps (which gets you in pretty much the same ball park)
Yes Montage added a nice FM-X engine, but Motif already had excellent samples of the most famous FM-sounds and presets.

Montage has always lived in the shadow of the Motif XF.  Now is their opportunity to truly take the torch and run with it.

Adding Physical Modeling update to the Yamaha VL technology, Midi 2.0 support, HDMI out, and Sampling to AWM2, FM-X, and Smart Morph would truly be an improvement over the Motif XF, but short of that, my Motif XF still has my heart.

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Posted on: September 10, 2023 @ 04:57 AM
nchrist
Total Posts:  457
Joined  07-10-2009
status: Enthusiast

AN1x was a beast! Not sure if you owned one - I have - and it’s modulation capabilities with extensive modulation routing options , free EG curves you can hand draw, etc made it sound like no other synth Yamaha has made. The waveforms are modeled not sample based, for a start, and as such, it’s very dynamic instead of processing the stationary waveform with rompers.

My regret is I sold the an1x I bought in pristine condition and have been waiting for a couple of decades for Yamaha to make one. The resurface showed up but it has a lot of cool stuff cut out of it.

This new Montage M8 may make my wishes come true.

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Posted on: September 10, 2023 @ 09:01 AM
lastmonk
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Joined  12-17-2013
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nchrist - 10 September 2023 04:57 AM

AN1x was a beast! Not sure if you owned one - I have - and it’s modulation capabilities with extensive modulation routing options , free EG curves you can hand draw, etc made it sound like no other synth Yamaha has made. The waveforms are modeled not sample based, for a start, and as such, it’s very dynamic instead of processing the stationary waveform with rompers.

My regret is I sold the an1x I bought in pristine condition and have been waiting for a couple of decades for Yamaha to make one. The resurface showed up but it has a lot of cool stuff cut out of it.

This new Montage M8 may make my wishes come true.

Agreed, the AN1x is an awesome beast.  One of my dudes has one at his church.  I’ve played it on more than a few occasions.

My point here is the Montage can already make any sound that you can make on the AN1X.  And as nice as the AN1x modulations features are and they are nice, they don’t come close to the Mod matrix and the motion control possible with the Montage.  Its not even a fair fight.

And I’m advocating for modeling to be added to the Montage, thats why I think the

Yamaha’s Physical Modelling Synth

would be a better addition than the AN1X

Keep in mind that even if they added the AN1X engine you’re still dealing with the Montage interface.  It has 8 knobs , 8 faders, One Superknob, ribbon, etc.  They could add something to remind us of the AN1X on the touch screen, but that just wouldn’t be the same, the AN1X colors, buttons, etc are unique to the AN1X.  Good news is:

You can get a Yamaha AN1X off e-bay today between $500 - $1000 today!

Also, just because a sound is modeled, it does not mean it sounds better or is as flexible as sampled synth.

It all depends on how good you are with both approaches.  The modeled algorithms are tied to the controllers on the synth.  One must have a thorough understanding of the model parameters and their inter relationships or the model will sound worse than the sample.  The keybanks of the sample on the Montage can be mapped to the controllers as well.  Velocity mapping, Envelope mapping, Envelope Design, Key Off Maps, Key-On Delays, Filter scaling, Control Arps, etc when done properly can give you the same nuance as the physical model algorithms.  But that takes an intimate knowledge of the AWM2 engine and a deep knowledge of element programming.  In both instances you need to really know what you’re doing if you are creating or seriously modifying original sounds.

I get all the flexibility I need out of my Motif samples because I know how to work the 8 elements in conjunction with all of Motif’s controllers in the AWM2 engine.

The Montage already has an awesome AWM2 sample based synthesis engine.  It has an awesome digital FM-X engine.  Both are state of the art Digital Synthesis.  All the montage is missing is Physical Modeling which is also Digital Synthesis.
If we’re really informed and being honest, the Montage doesn’t need Analog synthesis at all really.  AWM2 is already a superset sonically of anything that Analog was able to produce.

Sure classic Analog synthesizers offer a different interface, workflow, and type of inspiration to the musician than digital synthesizers do, but Analog synthesizers are not capable of producing useful sounds that digital synthesizers can not already produce ;-)

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Posted on: September 19, 2023 @ 08:12 PM
nchrist
Total Posts:  457
Joined  07-10-2009
status: Enthusiast

https://youtu.be/E2nKz_gx2Jw?si=jndP1LwS_bZgfaH4

This is what I was trying to convene. There is no way awm2 can take place of analog modeling. I think Yamaha themselves realized it and is putting an AN-X engine into the new Montage M! The 2nd sound is what I would expect from an analog modeling engine. Since the EX series workstation from late 90s, it’s 20 some years late but better late than never!

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Posted on: September 19, 2023 @ 08:21 PM
nchrist
Total Posts:  457
Joined  07-10-2009
status: Enthusiast

https://youtu.be/vFK1UmJYDr4?feature=sharedI’m

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Posted on: September 23, 2023 @ 09:09 PM
lastmonk
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Total Posts:  367
Joined  12-17-2013
status: Enthusiast
nchrist - 19 September 2023 08:12 PM

https://youtu.be/E2nKz_gx2Jw?si=jndP1LwS_bZgfaH4

This is what I was trying to convene. There is no way awm2 can take place of analog modeling. I think Yamaha themselves realized it and is putting an AN-X engine into the new Montage M! The 2nd sound is what I would expect from an analog modeling engine. Since the EX series workstation from late 90s, it’s 20 some years late but better late than never!

Yea, I’ve seen Scott’s presentation.  Usually Scott is pretty on point.  But this time he’s wrong mate.

It would be great to add AN1X to Montage M.  But that would not really add sonic difference, it would add a workflow difference for people who are more comfortable with Analog style synthesis.

All of the sounds that the AN1X makes could be made with the current Montage using properly designed Motion Sequences controlling the proper Synth Parameters.  Its just that simple.  Further, you can also make all of the sounds that the AN1X makes by manipulating FM-X engine with the right algorithms and even easier with Smart-Morph. 

In both cases it takes a fairly deep knowledge of Motion Sequencing and Synth Engine for the AWM2, and FM programming or at least very knowledgeable about Smart Morph.

The problem is many folks that are into the Virtual Analog thing have a totally different workflow, and are usually not very familiar with deep FM programming, Motion Sequencing, or really digging into AWM2 common LFO, and Controller Arps.

So yes AN1X would be a very good thing to add to the Montage M, because it would open up the Montage’s sonic capability to whole generation of people who are not comfortable with AWM2 deep dive, or the FM-X deep dive but who are familiar with Analog style synthesis. 

It is inaccurate though to say that the current Montage cannot make AN1X sounds.  Scott is well intentioned and he is very knowledgable.  He is just wrong in this instance.

Although I do want to see AN1X.  I would rather see VL-1, because while current Montage can make every sound the AN1X can make, it would have a much harder time trying to emulate every sound the Yamaha VL-1 can make ;-)

Physical Modeling Yamaha VL-1

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Posted on: September 28, 2023 @ 02:52 AM
kday
Total Posts:  401
Joined  02-17-2004
status: Enthusiast

It’ll probably be the same thing as the last one with just a few more sounds and Arps. Yamaha is stingy and difficult to deal with.

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