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Viewing topic "XF freezes, corrupt waveform on FL1, not able to format."

   
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Posted on: January 10, 2017 @ 02:39 AM
theGmus
Total Posts:  19
Joined  02-29-2016
status: Regular

I have created a waveform with Motif waveform editor from Melas. It’s 362 mb and contains 259 keybanks.

I successfully loaded the waveform on FL. But when I access the waveform froze up my whole XF. In order to find the issue I formatted the FL1 and only loaded the suspected waveform. This was a mistake! It still freezes up the XF, and I’m not able to format my FL1 anymore. Whenever I go to Utility - Flash the system by defaults lands on the corrupted waveform before I get a change to hit the format button.

Anyone has a trick up their sleeve I can try?

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Posted on: January 10, 2017 @ 04:30 AM
5pinDIN
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theGmus - 10 January 2017 02:39 AM

[...] Anyone has a trick up their sleeve I can try?

Perhaps…
1) Remove the flash module from the XF. Do a factory reset. Reinstall the flash module. See if you can format the module.

If that doesn’t work…
2) Remove the flash module. Find a store or friend who has a MOXF, and ask if they will allow you to temporarily install and format the module. (Since the MOXF flash format is different than that of the XF, the MOXF shouldn’t recognize what’s on the module.) After formatting on the MOXF, reinstall the module in your XF, where it should then need to be formatted again.

I hope you can succeed with one of the above. The second one should work if the first doesn’t.

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Posted on: January 10, 2017 @ 06:14 AM
theGmus
Total Posts:  19
Joined  02-29-2016
status: Regular

Thanks for the suggestions. I did option 1, but this doesn’t get me the format option to the flash board. I even installed it in FL2 and installed some additional waveforms and this works fine. And when I go to utility - FL2 the XF freezes cpompleteley.

I guess I will have to find someone with a MOXF then. Cheers

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Posted on: January 10, 2017 @ 06:34 AM
5pinDIN
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theGmus - 10 January 2017 06:14 AM

Thanks for the suggestions. I did option 1, but this doesn’t get me the format option to the flash board.[...]

That’s interesting. Does the XF recognize the presence of the flash module?

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Posted on: January 10, 2017 @ 07:17 AM
theGmus
Total Posts:  19
Joined  02-29-2016
status: Regular
5pinDIN - 10 January 2017 06:34 AM

That’s interesting. Does the XF recognize the presence of the flash module?

Yes, it’s recognizing the flashboard. I can write new waveforms. Only when I choose utility - flash - FL2 (i swapped it to slot 2) The XF freezes completely.

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Posted on: January 10, 2017 @ 07:55 AM
theGmus
Total Posts:  19
Joined  02-29-2016
status: Regular

I even found a way to delete waveforms from the flash card. In integrated sampling mode I do “Sample job 4 - Copy from flash memory” And choose delete original. This actually deletes the wavforms from the flash card. But when try this with the corrupted waveform at location 0001 it freezes up again.

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Posted on: January 10, 2017 @ 09:45 AM
5pinDIN
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theGmus - 10 January 2017 07:17 AM
5pinDIN - 10 January 2017 06:34 AM

That’s interesting. Does the XF recognize the presence of the flash module?

Yes, it’s recognizing the flashboard. I can write new waveforms. Only when I choose utility - flash - FL2 (i swapped it to slot 2) The XF freezes completely.

You removed the module, did a factory reset, reinstalled the module - but you couldn’t get to the format option, yet the module is recognized and you could write to it?

Sorry, something doesn’t make sense.

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Posted on: January 11, 2017 @ 12:32 AM
theGmus
Total Posts:  19
Joined  02-29-2016
status: Regular
5pinDIN - 10 January 2017 09:45 AM
theGmus - 10 January 2017 07:17 AM
5pinDIN - 10 January 2017 06:34 AM

That’s interesting. Does the XF recognize the presence of the flash module?

Yes, it’s recognizing the flashboard. I can write new waveforms. Only when I choose utility - flash - FL2 (i swapped it to slot 2) The XF freezes completely.

You removed the module, did a factory reset, reinstalled the module - but you couldn’t get to the format option, yet the module is recognized and you could write to it?

Sorry, something doesn’t make sense.

Yes, This is exactly what I did. Factory reset - power down - install flash board - power up - utility - flash - format > result instant freeze.

The issue isn’t that the flashcard is not formatted or I cannot read or write to it. I have created a corrupted waveform that freezes the entire system when it is accessed. And it’s occupying my first spot on my flashcard.

use this waveform in an element? Freeze
Try to delete the waveform? Freeze
Try to delete all waveforms on the board? Freeze
Try to format the flashcard? Freeze

Add new waveforms? Good
Make All backup including flashcard? Good
Delete another waveform from the flashcard by using workaround. Integrated sampler job - copy waveform flash to USR and delete after copy? Good

The freeze is instant and completely. No button responds, no sound is heard, the screen and all lights are frozen in their last state. I let it in a frozen state all night to check if it would ever come out. But after 10 hours it’s still frozen.

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Posted on: January 11, 2017 @ 02:15 AM
5pinDIN
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theGmus - 11 January 2017 12:32 AM

Yes, This is exactly what I did. Factory reset - power down - install flash board - power up - utility - flash - format > result instant freeze.

Normally when the flash modules are removed and a factory reset is done, the Waveform List is deleted. Then when the flash module is reinstalled, the XF sees it as “new” (and says so). I’m therefore surprised that it doesn’t allow formatting then, but since I’ve never dealt with a corrupted Waveform on a flash module, I have no further insight.

It seems that formatting the module in a MOXF might be the only alternative.

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Posted on: January 11, 2017 @ 03:13 AM
theGmus
Total Posts:  19
Joined  02-29-2016
status: Regular
5pinDIN - 11 January 2017 02:15 AM

Normally when the flash modules are removed and a factory reset is done, the Waveform List is deleted. Then when the flash module is reinstalled, the XF sees it as “new” (and says so). I’m therefore surprised that it doesn’t allow formatting then, but since I’ve never dealt with a corrupted Waveform on a flash module, I have no further insight.

It seems that formatting the module in a MOXF might be the only alternative.

Is the waveform list not on the flash card itself? I thought it was one of the advantages of the flashcard was that you could easily take your sounds without having long load times.

Anyway, I’m just back from the shop and re-formatted the flashcard it with the MOXF. And as I type the flashcard is now re-formatting in the Motif XF. So it seems like this was the way to go. Thanks a million for the support!

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Posted on: January 11, 2017 @ 07:33 AM
5pinDIN
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theGmus - 11 January 2017 03:13 AM

Is the waveform list not on the flash card itself? I thought it was one of the advantages of the flashcard was that you could easily take your sounds without having long load times.

Samples and the Waveforms that organize them are on the flash module(s). All other User data is found in the flash ROM that is part of the XF itself (not the modules) - besides Voices, Performances, System data, etc., it includes the Waveform List. That List is not the Waveforms themselves - rather, it’s the Waveform numbers, names, KeyBank information, and the relationship between Waveforms and Voices. Since the Waveform List is User data, it’s saved as part of an “All” file, and it’s written to the User memory when load options “with sample” or “without sample” are chosen, but not when “None” is selected.

The result is that a flash module can be moved from one XF to another, but the related “All” file has to be loaded “without sample” to the second XF in order to access the module contents.

 

theGmus -

Anyway, I’m just back from the shop and re-formatted the flashcard it with the MOXF. And as I type the flashcard is now re-formatting in the Motif XF. So it seems like this was the way to go. Thanks a million for the support!

You’re very welcome - I’m glad the problem is being resolved.

Of course, needing to have access to a MOXF in order to deal with an XF problem really isn’t an acceptable solution for users. Yamaha needs to step up and provide an updated OS that can do a flash module format without first reading the data on it and then freezing if it’s corrupted. Even MS-DOS had an option to format floppy disks Unconditionally (/U).

In the meantime, John Melas might want to revise his software to ensure that it doesn’t create Waveforms that cause such problems.

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Posted on: March 01, 2021 @ 01:02 AM
sdaino
Total Posts:  4
Joined  02-09-2005
status: Newcomer

Exactly the same problem here.... :(

I did a patch using Motif Waveform editor, exported as XF Waveform file, loaded on the FL1024M on my Motif XF. After this, it is not possible to use the flash memory anymore. As soon as I access to the flash options or just addressing a waveform on the flash when editing a patch, the Motif XF freezes.

Then, looking for a solution on the web, I have found this thread.

Any other solution respect to look for and to find a MOXF?

Thanks

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Posted on: March 01, 2021 @ 06:00 AM
5pinDIN
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sdaino - 01 March 2021 01:02 AM

Exactly the same problem here.... :(

I did a patch using Motif Waveform editor, exported as XF Waveform file, loaded on the FL1024M on my Motif XF. After this, it is not possible to use the flash memory anymore. As soon as I access to the flash options or just addressing a waveform on the flash when editing a patch, the Motif XF freezes.

Then, looking for a solution on the web, I have found this thread.

Any other solution respect to look for and to find a MOXF?

Thanks

Welcome to the forum, and sorry that you’re having problems.

It’s been four years since the previous member had similar problems. In that time I’m not aware of anyone except yourself reporting this, and I haven’t seen anything from Yamaha or Melas addressing the issue. Therefore I have no additional information.

I suggest that you contact Yamaha Support and and ask if they have a solution. Contact info is on the last page of the XF Owner’s Manual.

If Yamaha can’t assist, perhaps contacting John Melas might be helpful. Your member profile indicates you’re in Italy, and Melas is in Greece, so maybe you two can work this out.

Please let us know what Yamaha and Melas have to say, whether helpful or not.

  [ Ignore ]  

Posted on: March 01, 2021 @ 12:19 PM
sdaino
Total Posts:  4
Joined  02-09-2005
status: Newcomer
5pinDIN - 01 March 2021 06:00 AM

Welcome to the forum, and sorry that you’re having problems.

It’s been four years since the previous member had similar problems. In that time I’m not aware of anyone except yourself reporting this, and I haven’t seen anything from Yamaha or Melas addressing the issue. Therefore I have no additional information.

I suggest that you contact Yamaha Support and and ask if they have a solution. Contact info is on the last page of the XF Owner’s Manual.

If Yamaha can’t assist, perhaps contacting John Melas might be helpful. Your member profile indicates you’re in Italy, and Melas is in Greece, so maybe you two can work this out.


Please let us know what Yamaha and Melas have to say, whether helpful or not.

thank you for your ultra-fast reply.

Well… the problem is not only the John Melas editor, now the problem is that it is not possible to address, reset, format or delete all waveforms on the flash in any way.

As far as I understand, it is not possible to load a full .X3A bank including FL1 and FL2 waveform, deleting at the same time the current waveforms on a FL card, without having to go first to the Motif XF flash page to format or delete ALL waveforms, is it correct?

When I try to load a good .X3A including FL1 and FL2 hoping to be able to replace the current waveforms on the FL1 and FL2, the Motif XF quits the operation saying Memory Full. Is there any possibility to wipe out the FL without going to the Utility->Flash page?

I ask this because as soon as I go to Utility->Flash page, the Motif XF freezes immediately, and I can only turn it off, no matter of how much time I wait hoping to see it alive again.

Thanks
Stefano

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Posted on: March 01, 2021 @ 02:03 PM
5pinDIN
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Total Posts:  11887
Joined  09-16-2010
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I already understood the nature of your problem, but thanks for the additional information. I suggested contacting Yamaha and/or Melas because they might have determined a way to resolve the problem. However, since you seem to be reluctant to contact either of them, I’ll offer a possible way to attempt a repair.

The XF has a built-in diagnostic Test Mode. There’s a specific test for the flash memory module. One part of the test writes data to the module, deleting User data in the process. Another part of the test erases the test data. Those two parts might work - I don’t know, since I’ve never experienced the problem you have.

Download the XF Service Manual…
https://elektrotanya.com/yamaha_motif_xf6_xf7_xf8.pdf/download.html
...and see Test T00-2 Expansion Module Check on pages 102-105. Read the information carefully before deciding how (or whether) to proceed.

It’s unclear whether you have one or two modules in your XF. If one, before proceeding it should be in slot 1. If two, put the offending module in slot 1 and remove the other.

Note:
Proceed at your own risk. For anyone not currently having problems with their flash module(s), please don’t ask for trouble by running the tests.

The Test Mode may not run with a corrupted module, or the write/erase procedure might not fix the problem. I still suggest contacting Yamaha and Melas, especially if you run the test and are unsuccessful.

Best of luck. Please keep us informed of the outcome.

  [ Ignore ]  

Posted on: March 01, 2021 @ 04:27 PM
sdaino
Total Posts:  4
Joined  02-09-2005
status: Newcomer
5pinDIN - 01 March 2021 02:03 PM


The XF has a built-in diagnostic Test Mode. There’s a specific test for the flash memory module. One part of the test writes data to the module, deleting User data in the process. Another part of the test erases the test data. Those two parts might work - I don’t know, since I’ve never experienced the problem you have.

The Test Mode may not run with a corrupted module, or the write/erase procedure might not fix the problem. I still suggest contacting Yamaha and Melas, especially if you run the test and are unsuccessful.

Best of luck. Please keep us informed of the outcome.

YES! SUCCESS! Thank you so much for your help!

For the community:

I have 2 boards. Removed the good one, I mounted the offending module on slot #1.

Fortunately the module was ok, it passes all the tests. the TEST #4 at page 104 of the service manual does exactly what it is needed in this case: reset the flash memory deleting any previous data on it. I run also test #5 on page 105.

Then, turning ON again the Motif XF, it asks to format the flash memory. Just do it, and everything starts to work again as expected.

I’ll contact Melas, to provide this example of offending waveform. I’m using the last version of his application on the Mac. I guess this is a very rare case of un-compatibility with the Motif XF firmware.

Maybe the problem arises by the fact that I built a waveform having a different number of layers (keybanks) on each key along the keyboard. It is a Rhodes having 7 layers on the lower part and 5 on the upper portion of the keyboard.

I’ll keep you posted.

Again, thank you very much for your excellent suggestion and assistance.

Best
Stefano
http://www.dsp-quattro.com

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