5pinDIN - 19 May 2014 12:30 PM

DavePolich - 19 May 2014 11:48 AM

[...] I still say,
and will always say, that all things being equal, there is no real advantage to having the
Mutec board installed because, by the company’s own admission, the Motif XF cannot address more than 2GB of flash memory. [...]

Contrary to your assertion, Mutec has plainly stated otherwise.

No, they did not state otherwise.

Please read the post by Bakolaz in this thread:

http://www.motifator.com/index.php/forum/viewthread/472270/P15/

Quote from his post, where he states what Mutec’s reply to his email was:

“Yes, the FMC-07 works in the MOXF, you can use up to 2GB of FlashROM now. 
But please note, that the number of useable samples/waveforms will be not 
increased. The main advantage you now have is to use larger samples, or 
samples with a higher resolution and quality which need more memory 
capacity.”

Also, DschoKeys independent tests confirmed that the amount of sample waveforms that
can be addressed is fixed and cannot be “increased” with a Mutec board installed.

Mutec’s website only states that their boards work, and that you can “use larger, higher quality samples”. Which is true, except that the same can be said for the flashboards
that Yamaha markets. You can use “larger” samples on a Yamaha flashboard too. One can-

a) fill up one 1 GB flashboard with up to 1GB of sample waveforms, and thus have a maximum of 2GB of sample waveforms available on two 1GB boards. Or -
b) fill up one 2GB flashboard with up to 2GB of sample waveforms.

Mutec’s reference to larger “higher quality” sample waveforms is rubbish. Just because a
waveform is larger doesn’t mean it is higher quality. That’s like saying Led Zeppelin’s “Black Dog” is a better song than “Whole Lotta Love” because it’s longer.

DavePolich - 19 May 2014 12:53 PM

“Yes, the FMC-07 works in the MOXF, you can use up to 2GB of FlashROM now. 
But please note, that the number of useable samples/waveforms will be not 
increased. The main advantage you now have is to use larger samples, or 
samples with a higher resolution and quality which need more memory 
capacity.”

I think everyone understands that the number of addressable samples/waveforms will not be increased by purchasing a Mutec FMC-07.

DavePolich - 19 May 2014 12:53 PM

a) fill up one 1 GB flashboard with up to 1GB of sample waveforms, and thus have a maximum of 2GB of sample waveforms available on two 1GB boards. Or -
b) fill up one 2GB flashboard with up to 2GB of sample waveforms.

This is where the primary disagreement is - Mutec claims that
a) you can put a FMC-07 2GB flasbboard in the MOXF and that, given one doesn’t exceed the limited number of addressable samples/waveforms, all samples/waveforms can be addressed.

b) you can put two FMC-97 2GB flashboards in the Yamaha MotifXF (for a total of 4GB FlashRom) and that, given one doesn’t exceed the limited number of addressable samples/waveforms, all samples/waveforms can be addressed.

Here’s the contact email for Mutec ().

I’ve emailed Mutec and suggested a representative read this thread, and comment as to (1) the ability to address 2GB of sample/waveforms (given the number of addressable sample/waveforms limitation) in the MOXF as well as the ability to address 4GB of sample/waveforms (given the number of addressable sample/waveforms limitation) in the MotifXF and (2) known benefits of having twice the flashRom on Yamaha MOXF or MotifXF.

This really isn’t an opinion kind of thing, is it? The Mutec FMC-07 can either double addressable FlashROM (given not exceeding the total number of samples/waveforms that can be addressed) in the Motif XF and MOXF or it can’t.  If it can, then if folks can use the increased size to their advantage, it’s a winner.

Would like to see Mutec and Yamaha chip in…

DavePolich - 19 May 2014 12:53 PM

5pinDIN - 19 May 2014 12:30 PM

DavePolich - 19 May 2014 11:48 AM

[...] I still say,
and will always say, that all things being equal, there is no real advantage to having the
Mutec board installed because, by the company’s own admission, the Motif XF cannot address more than 2GB of flash memory. [...]

Contrary to your assertion, Mutec has plainly stated otherwise.

No, they did not state otherwise.

Please read the post by Bakolaz in this thread:

http://www.motifator.com/index.php/forum/viewthread/472270/P15/

Quote from his post, where he states what Mutec’s reply to his email was:

“Yes, the FMC-07 works in the MOXF, you can use up to 2GB of FlashROM now. 
But please note, that the number of useable samples/waveforms will be not 
increased. The main advantage you now have is to use larger samples, or 
samples with a higher resolution and quality which need more memory 
capacity.”

You’re confusing the MOXF with the XF. Obviously, since the MOXF has only one flash memory slot, it can’t hold two modules, which would be required to attain 4GB. Also obviously, the XF has two flash memory slots, and therefore can hold two modules. You might want to read this entire thread, in which I earlier posted an email reply I personally got from Mutec:
“Yes, the FMC-07 works in the MOTIF XF, you can use up to 4GB of FlashROM now. But please note, that the number of useable samples/waveforms will be not increased”.

Whether the boards make sense for the Motif XF or MOXF is really the question. And to this point no one is speaking. The technology that Yamaha implements in the Tyros 4/5 for example, AEM (Articulation Element Modeling) used to recreate the Super Articulation 2 Voices, lends itself to making use of the increased size. Each add-on SA2 Voice is huge. The Motif XF and MOXF, not so much, not like the Tyros.

In the Tyros5, for example, a single SA2 Voice could be made from hundreds of MB of Element data. Multiple attack Elements, multiple body Elements, and multiple tails are accessible per Voice. And add to this they are dynamically accessible by the player. Not just buttons but based on an analysis of how you’re playing. If you’ve never played one you will not know or appreciate what I’m talking about. Depending on the Voice being modeled the amount of data can vary tremendously.

Given the kind of questions we get here in the forums and the lack of understanding about most of things involving Flash it is easy to see how bigger seems better ... More, more more must be better, but remember memory is full based on “whichever comes first”. Actual use case will vary greatly, but having 4GB of memory available and not being able to fill it doesn’t get you much, now does it?

I love all the passion everyone has over something they clearly may not fully understand.

An analogy that may help the technically challenged understand:
If it works out to the equivalent of increasing the number of Songs in the sequencer from 64 to 128, big deal if on average 16 of your songs fills the sequencer memory… If you understand my meaning. It’s still a whichever limit is hit first deal.

We get that question all the time about has anybody ever gotten 64 Songs in the sequencer… Absolutely, not every song uses 16 instruments and is 5 minutes long… As I have said many times, “Mary had a little Lamb” is a song, look it up. “Happy Birthday” (wish I wrote that) is a song. Just because your definition of a song is an epic with tons of controllers doesn’t mean everyone’s are like yours. Beside song locations have other uses beyond the sequencer.

From my understanding of things, Tyros 5 users will be able to load more Yamaha SA2 sound Libraries… Which as I mention can be huge in size per instrument. That would make sense. That and the new Audio Styles. But I’ll wait for confirmation and let you know. They sell a lot of Tyros’ in Germany… Lots, trust me on that.

For the synth department to not be all over this, means it probably is all about Tyros… I’d just hate to see Motif XF users and MOXF users wind up buying them under false hope or with unrealistic expectations. You can, of course, do whatever you want. You probably are the first one to upgrade to Mavericks or 8.1 not realizing the benefits was not worth jumping ahead.

And just for a reality check: your own opinion notwithstanding
a 61-key synth-action Tyros5 is $2460 (USD) retail price more than a Motif XF8 weighted action workstation. Just FYI.

If it is not your cup of tea, step away. But reality is reality…

To those calmly reading this way too overly impassioned thread, relax, we’ll get to the bottom of it soon, and provide you with official information as soon as it becomes available.

Bad_Mister - 19 May 2014 04:41 PM

Whether the boards make sense for the Motif XF or MOXF is really the question. And to this point no one is speaking.

I and others have definitely addressed that point. I specifically mentioned the Chick’s Mark V library - while it takes up 400MB of space, it has only 5 WAVs. That sort of thing is precisely where having additional space (regardless of inability to store an increased number of samples/waveforms) can make a difference.

Now, if you’re talking about whether the cost of these large flash modules versus the cost of the synths makes sense, that’s another topic…

 

Bad_Mister -

[...] I’d just hate to see Motif XF users and MOXF users wind up buying them under false hope or with unrealistic expectations.

Which came first, the chicken or the egg? Do sample libraries get developed with the hope that they’ll fit the available memory, or do developers first determine the available space and tailor the samples to fit? Would more libraries with long samples become available if it was known that a certain percentage of the user base could use them? (Those are rhetorical questions, by the way.)

 

Bad_Mister -

To those calmly reading this way too overly impassioned thread, relax, we’ll get to the bottom of it soon, and provide you with official information as soon as it becomes available.

That would be welcomed.  :-)

Bad_Mister - 19 May 2014 04:41 PM

More, more more must be better, but remember memory is full based on “whichever comes first”. Actual use case will vary greatly, but having 4GB of memory available and not being able to fill it doesn’t get you much, now does it?

Hey Phil,

let’s leave the question aside for a moment whether the Motif XF actually can address more than 2GB of flash or not (and wait for the official information from Yamaha and hopefully also Mutec!?).

I can fully understand your point that filling the Flash Memory is limited by a maximum of 2048 waveforms/8192 keybanks per flash board.

But on the other hand, don’t you think that -especially when using several “big” libraries with relatively few but long and unlooped samples- (like for example “DSF Steinway Model L Grand Piano” (369MB), “Chick’s Mark V” (400MB) and others) users might also benefit from having more memory at their disposal without reaching the maximum number of samples/waveforms? More of these big libraries might be developed, given the potential of using 4GB of memory…

I for myself, as a live player, don’t need such big libraries (for example, I like the old PowerGrand very much for performing live! :) )...but I know of many (studio-) guys complaining about too short and looped samples in actual workstations (of all brands).

All the best, :)

Jo

EDIT: 5pinDIN, you’re typing way faster than me!  :)

5pinDIN - 19 May 2014 05:34 PM

Bad_Mister - 19 May 2014 04:41 PM

Whether the boards make sense for the Motif XF or MOXF is really the question. And to this point no one is speaking.

I and others have definitely addressed that point. I specifically mentioned the Chick’s Mark V library - while it takes up 400MB of space, it has only 5 WAVs. That sort of thing is precisely where having additional space (regardless of inability to store an increased number of samples/waveforms) can make a difference....

I really agree with you 5pinDIN, that you and I and others in this thread have spoken to very practical and viable ways to utilize double the Flash board capacity, assuming that it functions as advertised.

Whether it is the ability to LOAD multiple Chick Corea type Libraries, or to be able to STORE twice the amount of externally originated vocal/instrument audio tracks recorded with the sampler (XF)...to be triggered by the sequencer in combination with MIDI instrument tracks for SONG production...the doubled size capacity would be a big deal for many people.

The real point...I think...is if a person has a way to take advantage of that type of increased capacity, it will make sense for them to consider the purchase.

If another person cannot visualize how this can assist in their workflow, then for them it makes no sense to acquire it.

I just give you the way i’d use the 2+2GB if really available:

I like some software piano library and i make some simple version of it by taking the samples and then arranging the waveforms into the motif. I’m not very good at sampling and chosing loop points, so my waveforms are very large since i take the whole samples. I’m happy of my sounds and i’d be still more happy if i could add more sample to use at the various velocity levels. Probably it is not the best way to do but for me it is pretty fast and satisfying. I get pianos which i like more than the stock and payed ones (the ones that i have tried). Note that this approach does not requires huge numbers of samples or waveforms.

This example is just to show that it is possible to improve our satisfaction by having larger waves. I understand that good sounds have not to be necessarily large in terms of size but if size is not the only thing it helps.

Separated by a common language… What nobody is talking about is the development of these primarily to service the Tyros customer base, perhaps I was not clear. Tyros, Tyros Tyros, that’s what no one is discussing… Everything else has been beat to a pulp, frankly.

To all pursuing additional verification and information on this particular product, I (for one) am quite interested in your findings.

cmayhle - 20 May 2014 01:10 AM

To all pursuing additional verification and information on this particular product, I (for one) am quite interested in your findings.

In line with 5PinDin‘s response from MUTEC, here’s the MUTEC CEO’s response to my email…

Regarding your inquiry, I can confirm that against all other meanings our FMC-07 works with full capacity in the appropriate devices. That means:

MOTIF XF6-8: max. 4GB
MOXF6, MOXF8: max. 2GB
Tyros 4+5: max. 2GB

The memory in all devices is linear addressable. It is like you have stated in one of your last sentences: In the MOTIFs, the MOXFs and the Tyros 4, the user can increase the size of the samples, but not the total number of waveforms/samples. The Tyros 5 is an exception, there are no limitations regarding the usable number of waveforms/samples. The FMC-07 can be directly formatted in every device like the standard cards. The procedure and handling is equal. The FMC-07 also works in combination with a 512MB or 1024MB card in the MOTIFs.

I hope this helps you and clarifies the situation. I am not sure if we will get an official statement from at least Yamaha Europe, so far they have not shown any interest, although MUTEC has supplied lots of upgrade packages directly to Yamaha Europe in the past. But the official announcement of the FMC-07 was done yesterday and is furthermore done today. So possibly a Yamaha test and statement comes later.

Best regards, Chris.

Dipl.-Ing. Christian Peters
Geschäftsführer / CEO

It seems to me that the discussion about this topic is overheated and needs to be calmed down.

- Mutec and it’s distributors/vendors should state in their offcial product description that the 2GB flash expansion is not able to override the existing limit of numbers of samples (which is 8192 Keybanks/samples per flash board).
However, instead of using MORE samples, it’s possible to use LARGER samples.
- Distributors of voice libraries like “Easysounds” or “Keyfax” should declare their number of used keybanks/samples and waveforms in their product descriptions, so that potential customers of the 2GB-expansion-board know in advance, whether an installation on the board is possible or not.

cosmic - 20 May 2014 07:52 AM

Mutec and it’s distributors/vendors should state in their offcial product description that the 2GB flash expansion is not able not override the existing limit of numbers of samples (which is 8192 Keybanks/samples per flash board).

At the Mutec website for the 2GB board it clearly states the above.

At the Mutec website for the 2GB board it clearly states the above.

Yes, but this is not mentioned clearly on the several vendor websites.
They should clarify things to prevent needless return shipments.

Does Mutec state the power draw of the 2GB board?