mySoftware [Updates]

Once you create a user profile on Motifator and update with the appropriate information, the updates shown here will be specific to you.

newProducts [YOK]

rssFeeds [Syndicate]


forumforum
 

Old Motifator threads are available in the Archive.

Viewing topic "Why is Perf Mode limited to 4 Voices when in Song / Mix Mode it’s 16 Voice Multi-timbral?"

     
Posted on: April 22, 2013 @ 08:03 PM
cassdad
Total Posts:  64
Joined  04-30-2009
status: Experienced

I was reading some of Bad Mister’s old posts, which reminded me of a fundamental question I’ve always had from day one of Motif ownership:  Why is Perf Mode limited to 4 Voices when in Song / Mix Mode it’s 16 Voice Multi-timbral?  Why am I limited to only 4 voices in Performance mode when I know it’s capable of up to 16 different voices at the same time?

Yes, I know, 4 is plenty when performing live… but my point is that I would like to layer one or more of the 4 voices with several sounds, if you get my point.

If anyone knows the answer, it would be most appreciated.

  [ Ignore ]  

Posted on: April 23, 2013 @ 06:27 AM
Bad_Mister
Avatar
Total Posts:  36620
Joined  07-30-2002
status: Moderator

Yes, I know, 4 is plenty when performing live

  [ Ignore ]  

Posted on: April 23, 2013 @ 08:10 AM
meatballfulton
Avatar
Total Posts:  3022
Joined  01-25-2005
status: Guru

Performance mode in the Motif series is just different than the “combination” modes in other brands. You can use Song and Pattern modes to get the same functionality if you need it.

  [ Ignore ]  

Posted on: April 23, 2013 @ 09:55 AM
TheDukester
Total Posts:  3345
Joined  01-18-2003
status: Guru

I think The Bad 1’s response says it all. I interface my Motif with an S90 XS with Performances with both and unless I’m careful the ‘space’ can get cluttered. Performance Mode is best applied with the concept of a Band.

The beauty of the Motif has been the division of the Modes to satisfy a variety of intentions. When placed in a MIX, a Performance can be useful. You can put 2 Performances in a MIX and if your navigation is good, this could be an effective way of doing things. The ‘down side’ is that the Performance in a Mix has all of its Voices assigned to ‘1’ MIDI Channel. You ‘can’t’ adjust the Voices within.

Now you ‘can’ put all of your Voices in a MIX. You can even assign different Voices to the same MIDI Channel to suit your musical objectives.

Possibilities abound if you respect the “MODES” and understand them and their purpose.
Just a thought..............

  [ Ignore ]  

Posted on: April 23, 2013 @ 10:45 AM
cmayhle
Total Posts:  3116
Joined  10-05-2011
status: Guru
TheDukester - 23 April 2013 09:55 AM

...The beauty of the Motif has been the division of the Modes to satisfy a variety of intentions. When placed in a MIX, a Performance can be useful. You can put 2 Performances in a MIX and if your navigation is good, this could be an effective way of doing things. The ‘down side’ is that the Performance in a Mix has all of its Voices assigned to ‘1’ MIDI Channel. You ‘can’t’ adjust the Voices within....

Absolutely correct TheDukester, but you can also go a step further and put this MIX into MASTER MODE with the 8 ZONES turned on and assign each ZONE to it’s own MIDI channel.  Since all 8 MIDI channels can transmit simultaneously in MASTER MODE, you can have effective level control on all 8 PARTS individually via the sliders...while maintaining the original dual insertion effects of all 8 PARTS!

TheDukester - 23 April 2013 09:55 AM

...Possibilities abound if you respect the “MODES” and understand them and their purpose....

Isn’t that the truth!

  [ Ignore ]  

Posted on: April 23, 2013 @ 07:02 PM
cassdad
Total Posts:  64
Joined  04-30-2009
status: Experienced

OK, thank you all… I think you are trying to tell me that I CAN indeed get more than 4 voices… although I’m still not sure how, but I’ll read more and try to understand better.  Thanks!

  [ Ignore ]  

Posted on: April 23, 2013 @ 07:56 PM
cmayhle
Total Posts:  3116
Joined  10-05-2011
status: Guru
cassdad - 23 April 2013 07:02 PM

OK, thank you all… I think you are trying to tell me that I CAN indeed get more than 4 voices… although I’m still not sure how, but I’ll read more and try to understand better.  Thanks!

I would be happy to try to assist you in this endeavor, cassdad.  It is really quite a cool thing, but in the deeper end of the XS pool!

First I need to know at what point you may need assistance.

Are you comfortable placing multiple VOICES (Or even a PERFORMANCE) as PARTS into a MIXING for use in live performing, as TheDukester was describing?  That is the first step.

Bad_Mister has provided an excellent Article for this procedure, you will find it Here.

Once you have VOICES as PARTS in a MIXING, there are (2) options in how you use them Live:  1) You can assign them to the same MIDI channel and they will sound together, which is good for Layers and Splits, but you will not have easy fader-operated real-time live-performance control over their relative volumes.

2) You also have the ability to assign each PART to a separate MIDI channel and switch seamlessly between them by pressing the appropriate TRACK buttons 1-16, but will only be able to use them one at a time in this configuration.

However, there is a 3rd option that involves using MASTER MODE that gives you the fantastic ability to use up to (8) PARTS either individually or in combination...as splits or layers...and with real-time fader volume control for each of these PARTS...with the help of ZONES.

But you need to be comfortable putting PARTS into a MIXING, and assigning MIDI channels first!  Are you?  If not, go through the Bad_Mister Article.

  [ Ignore ]  

Posted on: April 24, 2013 @ 02:33 PM
cassdad
Total Posts:  64
Joined  04-30-2009
status: Experienced

Thank you, Cmayle, I think I now see your point.  And, yes, I know how to set-up the mix, etc, and do everything you described.  And, yes, you have given me some new ideas I had not thought of before with approaching layering / splits etc via the song / mix function using the MIDI channel to accomplish same.  All aok, and great ideas.  But can I still use the “arpeggio” / sequence function on just some parts, like I can in “Performance” mode?

Perhaps I need to be more specific about what I’m trying to do, as I can see by Bad Mister’s response that he apparently thinks 4 voices is more than enough.  There are times when, for me, I could use more.

Here’s my example (in “Performance” Mode, playing a song completely real time, live, totally ad hoc, repeating verses, soloing, etc, at will, on the fly, just playing real time, nothing pre-recorded):

Track 1 = a “Piano” voice
Track 2 = “Brass” (which I use the sliders to bring in and out at different times in the song)
Track 3 = a “Bass” voice (in the range of my left hand while playing the piano)
Track 4 = “Drums” running via an Arpeggio (auto starts when I start playing the keyboard)

I am now out of voices (I used all 4 available in “Performance” Mode).

But I would like to add another layer voice over the piano… say, for example, the “DX Wood” sound, or a Rhodes piano sound.  Or perhaps also be able to bring “Strings” in and out via slider on top of the “Piano” sound.  Currently, I canNOT do anything in this paragraph because it would exceed the 4 Voices allowed in “Performance” Mode.

Can I do this in the “Mix” MODE, VIA MIDI control.... and still have the “Drum” arpeggio running non-stop (starting once I hit the keys after I turn “on” the “arpeggio” switch, and still assign “note ranges” to the “Bass” and “Brass”, and still bring the “Brass” in and out only as I need / don’t need it?

Apologies for this post length, I don’t know any shorter way to try to explain my problem.

  [ Ignore ]  

Posted on: April 24, 2013 @ 03:40 PM
cmayhle
Total Posts:  3116
Joined  10-05-2011
status: Guru
cassdad - 24 April 2013 02:33 PM

...Here’s my example (in “Performance” Mode, playing a song completely real time, live, totally ad hoc, repeating verses, soloing, etc, at will, on the fly, just playing real time, nothing pre-recorded):

Track 1 = a “Piano” voice
Track 2 = “Brass” (which I use the sliders to bring in and out at different times in the song)
Track 3 = a “Bass” voice (in the range of my left hand while playing the piano)
Track 4 = “Drums” running via an Arpeggio (auto starts when I start playing the keyboard)

I am now out of voices (I used all 4 available in “Performance” Mode).

But I would like to add another layer voice over the piano… say, for example, the “DX Wood” sound, or a Rhodes piano sound.  Or perhaps also be able to bring “Strings” in and out via slider on top of the “Piano” sound.  Currently, I canNOT do anything in this paragraph because it would exceed the 4 Voices allowed in “Performance” Mode.

Can I do this in the “Mix” MODE, VIA MIDI control.... and still have the “Drum” arpeggio running non-stop (starting once I hit the keys after I turn “on” the “arpeggio” switch, and still assign “note ranges” to the “Bass” and “Brass”, and still bring the “Brass” in and out only as I need / don’t need it?

Apologies for this post length, I don’t know any shorter way to try to explain my problem.

Yes, you can do this!  As you know from studying the Article on setting up a MIX to house multiple VOICES for live performance, you can not only import VOICES into PARTS of the MIXING, you can bring Arpeggios with them!

Here is how I would do it:

First, set up your PERFORMANCE the way you want it.

Then, move your PERFORMANCE into a MIX (SONG or PATTERN, it doesn’t matter).  If you need to know how this is done, see This short Article.  I would recommend using the TEMPLATE method in this Article, as you want all of your MIX PARTS to be on separate MIDI channels ultimately, and the TEMPLATE method does this by default.

At this point you should have the (4) PARTS of your PERFORMANCE installed into a MIXING, and the (4) PARTS will be set to MIDI channels corresponding to their positions...1=MIDI Ch. 1, 2=MIDI Ch. 2, etc.

All of these PARTS are now playable individually (1) at a time at this point, and the drum with it’s Arp. should be functioning as you wish when you light it’s track number and have the Arp button lit and hit a key.

Now, you will go to PART (5) of the MIXING, and add your 5th PART, and assign the MIDI Ch. to 5.  Go to PART (6) if you wish and add another.  You can go up to (8) PARTS!

Name and STORE your MIXING as a SONG or PATTERN, depending on what Mode you set it up in.

You are now ready to move the MIX you have created into a MASTER location.  You now need to be familiar with MASTER Mode, so if you are not you need to study This Article by Bad_Mister.  If you scroll to the end of the linked Article, you can download it as a PDF and add it to your Article library (Recommended).

The Article will tell you how to understand and accomplish this, but in a nutshell:  You need to open a MASTER and associate it with the SONG or PATTERN MIX you just created.  After you have done this:  Under COMMON EDIT in this MASTER you will see (2) screens available.  [NAME] will identify the PARTS 1-8 you have in the MASTER’s ZONES 1-8, and [OTHER] will have a ZONE Switch box.  This switch must be set (Checked) to ON.

Still in EDIT, go to the First ZONE (TRACK) by pushing TRACK button (1), and under [TRANSMIT] you will see the ZONE Number (1) and the Transmit (MIDI) Channel (Should be set to (1), and a RED CHECK MARK under INT. SWITCH must be showing.

On this screen you should see ZONES 1-4.  Each ZONE should be set to TRANSMIT to the MIDI Channel that corresponds to it’s ZONE location number, and must have the RED CHECK MARK (Int. Switch) showing.  The reason all of the ZONES need to transmit on their own MIDI channel is so you have independent volume control in real-time for each of the ZONES.  That also happens to be the key that allows all of this to work:  The machine can transmit on up to (8) MIDI-CHANNELS/ZONES simultaneouly in MASTER MODE!

Now you are set!  You can start your Drum Arp. by hitting a key (Make sure the Arp. button is lit, and start playing along with your other PARTS.  The sliders 1-8 will control the mix levels of up to 8 PARTS (ZONES) in this particular set-up.  All PARTS (ZONES) will sound at the same time, and you can use the Level Sliders to layer or mix it any way you want!

This is a very powerful MASTER Mode tool!

Name and STORE your new MASTER.

  [ Ignore ]  

Posted on: April 24, 2013 @ 05:51 PM
cassdad
Total Posts:  64
Joined  04-30-2009
status: Experienced

WOW!!!!  Thank you, Cmayhle - this is wonderful… I can’t wait to try it!  I think that I never grasped that I could bring the arpeggios over, I thought it was just the voices.  Although I’ve read the articles about “Master” Mode, I never really saw the need for it until now.  Thank you, again… I hope I can make it work!  This machine is SO powerful, I tend to think it somehow CAN do what I want it to do.. but I always get caught up in some little setting somewhere that precludes me from doing so (the price of this kind of flexibility is an almost limitless number of options and settings that have to be just right in order to make it really work).

Thank you, again!  I’ll try it as soon as I have the obviously several hours that this will take me to do the 1st time.

I’ve learned a lot from this Forum, some real expertise here.  Frankly, very nice of Yamaha to host it at no cost to me.  I really appreciate it, thank you.

  [ Ignore ]  

Posted on: April 25, 2013 @ 03:14 AM
5pinDIN
Avatar
Total Posts:  11891
Joined  09-16-2010
status: Legend
cassdad - 24 April 2013 05:51 PM

[...]I’ve learned a lot from this Forum, some real expertise here.  Frankly, very nice of Yamaha to host it at no cost to me.  I really appreciate it, thank you.

You might find these interesting:

http://www.motifator.com/index.php/about

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julian_Colbeck

  [ Ignore ]  

Posted on: April 25, 2013 @ 07:11 AM
Apex
Total Posts:  683
Joined  10-21-2005
status: Guru
Bad_Mister - 23 April 2013 06:27 AM

Yes, I know, 4 is plenty when performing live

your opinion… and it’s not nice to force it on other people…

yamaha should open up the option for more than 4 voices.  and give the user the control.  4 is just not enough sometimes. 

and just because someone wants more than 4 doesn’t mean they will ALWAYS use more than 4....  8 sliders as a mean to control the volume of the mix between voice elements… is not very useful.

either way, I still love my motif XF!!!  but still....

  [ Ignore ]  

Posted on: April 25, 2013 @ 08:29 AM
TheDukester
Total Posts:  3345
Joined  01-18-2003
status: Guru

I have come from the ‘Classic’ through the ES and to the XS. There is a consistent theme, if you will, of the structures and features. They are found in understanding the Modes. Each has a role and purpose. When you understand them navigation is a breeze.

As 98% of my use of the workstations is ‘Live’, I think I can speak with authority that 4 Voices in a Performance is more than enough (if you need ‘more’ I would be frightened at what it would sound like).

IF you ‘should’ want or need more, putting them in a MIX and then assigning the Voices you need to the same MIDI Channel and then in a Master ‘could’ satisfy that desire, but that all has been addressed in this thread.

The bottom line is, more often than not, the problems stem from not enough time ‘under the hood’ and experimenting with what does exist. With understanding and spending time under the hood, you will discover more and quicker access than you might perceive, especially if you have the handle on Master Mode.

Performance Mode is closely similar and constructed to ‘simulate’ what one would do as a ‘Band’. It has been working for ‘me’ for 10 years and I might add that patrons where I perform and can’t ‘see’ me, are under the impression that there is more than one person providing the music. It took time to learn how to access the individual Voices on demand and time to learn which ‘Voices’ are complimentary.

In the end, you have the tools. You can continue to drive in a screw with a ‘kitchen knife’ if you will, but there ‘are’ guides and instructions in abundance on this site to help you learn and understand the roles and reasoning for the respective Modes and how to apply them.

Application is on ‘you’.
Just a thought........

BTW...great stuff,cmayhle!!!! You gave me yet another idea to play with.

  [ Ignore ]  

Posted on: January 11, 2014 @ 02:22 AM
musicadi
Total Posts:  77
Joined  03-26-2007
status: Experienced
cmayhle - 24 April 2013 03:40 PM


The reason all of the ZONES need to transmit on their own MIDI channel is so you have independent volume control in real-time for each of the ZONES.

I would have found this feature more logical if the volume slider would actually control the volume of the respective ZONE, independently of the midi channel it controls.

Cause if I have say strings on channel 8 in the mix and assign that to zone 2, I can control its volume with slider number 8...!! If I want to control it with slider number 2, I would have to go to the mix and put the strings to channel 2.

I think if we are talking about zones, the sliders should affect the zones. 8 zones = 8 sliders/buttons

  [ Ignore ]  

Posted on: January 11, 2014 @ 03:10 AM
Bad_Mister
Avatar
Total Posts:  36620
Joined  07-30-2002
status: Moderator

You’re not thinking it all they way through. Volume is a MIDI channel message!

  [ Ignore ]  

Posted on: January 11, 2014 @ 11:53 AM
musicadi
Total Posts:  77
Joined  03-26-2007
status: Experienced
Bad_Mister - 11 January 2014 03:10 AM

You’re not thinking it all they way through. Volume is a MIDI channel message!

Ok, but you could still make the sliders in master mode send volume changes to whichever channel its respective zone is controlling, couldn’t you?

So, if Zone 1 transmit channel is 2, then slider 1 one would send CC7 to midi channel 2. If in change Zone 1 transmit channel is 6, then slider 1 would send CC7 to midi channel 6.

Or would that mess up everything else? :)

  [ Ignore ]  


 
     


Previous Topic:

‹‹ Motif XS start up problem
Next Topic:

    How do I set my XS8 to start from usb memory settings? ››