mySoftware [Updates]

Once you create a user profile on Motifator and update with the appropriate information, the updates shown here will be specific to you.

newProducts [YOK]

rssFeeds [Syndicate]


forumforum
 

Old Motifator threads are available in the Archive.

Viewing topic "Motif XS8 sync to Logic Timing issues."

     
Posted on: April 18, 2010 @ 04:49 PM
rokmega
Total Posts:  3
Joined  04-18-2010
status: Newcomer

Hi guys, heres my problem...I have the XS8 synced via MIDI Clock to Logic 8 on a macbook by USB. I am trying to use both sequencers together, or at least have that option as I like the swing settings of the motif but find sequencing on Logic quicker. Now everything sounds in time but, when I record my midi pattern from the XS8 to Logic the hits are drifting very slightly. This is not a uniform drift, for instance some hits are bang on and some are slightly off. The drift is miniscule, not audible but can be seen in the matrix edit. I know its doesn’t make much difference but I’d like the XS8 and Logic to be locked in sync perfectly. Is this even possible?

Here is what’s happening, I record a hi hat on each beat of the bar on the motif sequencer, then quantize it so it is perfectly in time. Next I record that midi pattern to a track on Logic. If I check the matrix edit to see if the hits are bang on time, I find some are but some are drifting slightly.

Any ideas anyone?

Thanks in advance

  [ Ignore ]  

Posted on: April 18, 2010 @ 07:51 PM
motif8mine
Avatar
Total Posts:  1743
Joined  10-22-2004
status: Guru

Alright, bear with me… :)

A person asks you for advice on how to mop floors and they begin to describe what they do- how they mix the bleach and ammonia etc… You’re thinking HIKES! That’s a deadly combination! Anyway, you want help with your issue and I’m responding- HIKES!

Bad_Mister - 29 April 2009 02:49 PM

If I ever run into a drummer that could hit the downbeat, exactly on the downbeat I’d have accomplished something. We are human and humans do not hit anything on the beat trust me. Over quantized music… is, well, over quantized music. If you feel the need to tighten it up, do so, if not let it go. It actually may feel better late (never early).

I see some people go nuts over 10 or 20 clock ticks… I’ve seen readouts of some classic recording (an analysis of where each drum hit landed according to a quanitze grid)… no way would you say it didn’t have the utmost feel… but not one hit every landed on a 000.

If each quarter note is divided into 480 pulses… 30 clock ticks is a 64th note… You know the joke about the Cello player and the 64th note? They hit one once.

Hard quantizing MIDI events in this way is never advisable. It is not musical. No drummer, bassist, musician has ever or will ever play spot on the beat. If fact, groove, feel etc… comes from playing around the beat. A little before or especially, a little behind.

Quantize is used to help correct timing! You indeed mention that nothing sounds off. Take it from someone who did the same thing years ago in the first years of MIDI and now, while updating many of those songs, is finding the drum parts and other instruments which were hard quantized, unusable.

Don’t get me wrong, perhaps you are scoring Avatar II, the next release of Mario for Wii or, Terminator V. It may be warranted in that case. Pretty much for anything else, remember that music is heard and your ears should guide you as to timing.

That said, there are any number of reasons why this might be the case. Among them, the two sequencers have different resolutions. Namely, Logic’s Sequencer has a resolution of 960 ticks per quater note. The XS has 480 per quarter note. Logic is therefore ‘more sensitive’ and adds level of accuracy that the XS cannot. This is sometimes represented visually and may account for the differences you are seeing.

  [ Ignore ]  

Posted on: April 18, 2010 @ 10:00 PM
rokmega
Total Posts:  3
Joined  04-18-2010
status: Newcomer

Hi I’m afraid you may have missed the point of this question. My question was not about quantization or about advice on how to make music but about how to get my XS8 and Logic synced as tight as possible.

Firstly please don’t take this the wrong way, but I don’t agree with your post about quantization. I make a lot of different genres and have done for many years, and have always quantized my playing. This especially applies to the Hip-Hop/Dubstep/House I produce which relies on heavy shuffle/swing settings. I particularly like the swing from the MPC 3000, which I regularly use in Logic. This also applies to a lot of people I know that make music, they use the swing of the sequencer to get their groove. I would be hard pressed to find anyone I work with who doesn’t quantize, apart from the absolute best session players we use.

Secondly the whole hi hat thing was a test to see how in sync the two sequencers were. They are very tight but I like to know they are rock solid and this test proves they are not. I would like to hope that the resolution comment was an over sight on your part as this problem could not possibly be caused by a difference in resolution. The beats should all fall at exactly the same place and be exactly the same length, plus I did explain that it is more of a drift as the amount that the individual hats are out by fluctuate. I’d like to explain about resolution but really can’t be bothered, plus it’s easy enough to google.

Anyway like I said, I hope you don’t take this the wrong way, I just felt the point of the original post had been entirely missed! Thanks for a quick reply though.

I’m pretty sure I need a dedicated MIDI Clock device, but was just hoping there was a cheaper way!

Cheers

Rok

P.S. Bleach is generally just a watered down form of ammonia, so thats not such a deadly combination! Didn’t really get the whole analogy thing either, how could the way in which I set my kit up be deadly?!

  [ Ignore ]  

Posted on: April 19, 2010 @ 12:46 AM
T4MH
Avatar
Total Posts:  169
Joined  10-20-2008
status: Pro

Hi Rok

Ammonia is indeed dangerous. Please don’t breathe the fumes.  Just take my word for it…

I have been a PC/Sonar/MOTIF XS8 user for sometime but I will be making the change to a Mac and Logic in the next couple of weeks so I am very interested in the outcome of this issue, quantizing or not.  In Sonar, the ticks resolution can be changed down to 480 which is equivalent to the MOTIF.  I don’t yet know if this is possible in Logic or not, but if it is you might consider doing it and see if your timing issue gets better.  Somehow I don’t think it will but you’d eliminate one possibility.

Personally, I’ve never done what you are doing.  I usually just import the MOTIF SMF via Ethernet from the MOTIF to my DAW.  They’ve always run exactly in sync this way.  My communication between the DAW and the MOTIF sequencer has always been USB.  I probably will change to FW once I get Logic up and running.

I know there are many XS purists here who like to use the XS with no external daw or sequencer.  In a lot of ways I agree with them.  However, I’ve had some problems with my eyes recently and looking at the XS screen for a long time hasn’t helped.  So I get it out to the puter where I can magnify…

Good Luck!
T4MH

  [ Ignore ]  

Posted on: April 19, 2010 @ 01:06 AM
motif8mine
Avatar
Total Posts:  1743
Joined  10-22-2004
status: Guru

You’re aparently the expert so I’ll discard all my years of professional recording, seesion work, etc…

There are several inaccuracies: first I was not talking about quantizing- if you read my post I specifically referred to hard quantizing. You don’t have to agree with my assessments as I do not consider hip hop music but, that’s just me…

Further, Resolution does in fact affect how one sequencer reads information from another. There are twice and many ‘positions’ that event can fall in Logic as in the XS. And, the ‘feel’ of a phrase or passage of music can be quite different when transferred between them.  This not only happens with syncing the two but can also happen when importing or exporting MIDI Files. It can also be exacerbated by the time signature / tempo…

Also, I did mention there could be several other factors which I didn’t want to get into: among them is the sync method: MIDI Beat Clock, MTC, SMPTE, or the frame rate the devices may be operating in 30fps, 29.97fps and how those things are read visually by the sequencer…

Your comments tended to indicate that you did did not audibly hear any difference, which again would tell me- there isn’t any problem…

Finally, as you apparently missed this in Chemistry class, I proffer the following:

Household bleach has a chemical formula of NaOCl - that is, one atom each of sodium, oxygen, and chlorine. Its chemical name, for the curious, is sodium hypochlorite. Ammonia has a chemical formula of NH3, that is, one atom of nitrogen and three atoms of hydrogen. When these two compounds are combined, the following reaction takes place:

2(parts)NaOCl + 2NH3 --> 2NaONH3 + Cl2.

Do you see that Cl2 on the right hand side there? This means one part chlorine gas, made up of diatomic (two atom) molecules. It also means that the chlorine gas has been liberated from the bleach, and is quite capable of causing you harm when inhaled!

  [ Ignore ]  

Posted on: April 19, 2010 @ 06:45 AM
rokmega
Total Posts:  3
Joined  04-18-2010
status: Newcomer

Cheers T4MH and good luck to you too.

motif8mine I guess you did take it the wrong way! I think its a real shame you don’t consider Hiphop, music! Have a listen to the Roots.

I assure you the resolution makes no difference to this issue.

I still think the point of the original post was missed. Surely people should not question the reasons for the information requested(i.e. whether the quantization is justifiable or whether because I don’t hear the timing issue, I don’t need to fix it) but should just help if they can. To be frank I wasn’t after your personal opinion on either of these subjects.

You are right about the bleach thing though, I was thinking of household cleaners.

Cheers though

  [ Ignore ]  

Posted on: April 19, 2010 @ 05:20 PM
motif8mine
Avatar
Total Posts:  1743
Joined  10-22-2004
status: Guru

I guess you did take it the wrong way!

I guess that you did too! :)

I think its a real shame you don’t consider Hiphop, music! Have a listen to the Roots.

I’ve heard The Roots

Surely people should not question the reasons for the information requested

Neither is it terribly polite to question the manner in which someone attempts to help them. If it takes a question to clarify what or why a person is asking a question, you may be able to provide a better answer.

I don’t hear the timing issue

We don’t have to agree here! But, don’t hear a problem = no problem in my thinking because music is after all heard. No disrespect intended...

To be frank I wasn’t after your personal opinion on either of these subjects.

Please note, I volunteer my time and energy to try to help others. And, there are at least a few that I was able to assist. So, I’m really not going to be receptive to people telling me how to volunteer my time and if I choose to proffer my opinion when doing so, I will. I don’t recall your ever attempting to assist me. But, I can assure you that, if you did, I would tolerate your opinion- judging that you probably have better things you could be doing… but, that’s just me :)

Finally, you can purchase an external MIDI Clock Generator but that will not necessarily ensure that things will line up visually as you would like them to between your hardware device and Logic’s arrange window…

Hope you find what you’re looking for…

  [ Ignore ]  


 
     


Previous Topic:

‹‹ drum patterns from Mo to Logic
Next Topic:

    LOGIC9, MOTIF XS6 and STUDIO MANAGER problem ››