OK- I just read a great reply from BM on Foot Controller issues in Perf mode.  Here’s a recap of relevant info:

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The default for the FC7 plugged into the first Foot Controller jack (FC1) is to send cc011 Expression. This is programmable on a per PERFORMANCE basis. So what it sends is your choice. Expression is not MAIN Volume - by the way… cc007 is Main Channel Volume - all PARTS of your PERFORMANCE would jump to equal levels and would change together as you moved the pedal up and down. cc011 Expression will keep the relative proportion between the different PARTS (so musically it is more useful… thus the reason it defaults to Expression and not Main Volume).

There already is a Controller dedicated to ATTACK Time (cc073) - assigning two Sources to attack time will promote an argument (more on that later). As you increase the controller (knob) from the 12 o’clock position, you are increasing the attack time (slowing the rise in volume… basically, increasing the amount of time the amplitude envelope takes to reach full volume). Actually, you are off setting the Amplitude Envelope Generators of the involved Elements.

If you want to use a Foot Controller to do this it is highly recommended that you use the device number function designed for this purpose. Here’s how:

MIDI provides for a genric Controller device number - one not dedicated to a specific thing like cc007 (Main Channel Volume) and cc011 (Expression)… this genric Controller device number is cc004 (coincidentally) called “Foot Controller”.... Its purpose is for when you want to define a function within a Voice so that you can have more detailed control via a pedal.

The other Foot Controller jack (#2) defaults, by the way, to send cc004 (Foot Control). The reason, because it is a very common thing to want to control something other than Volume with your foot, and to do so in addition to controlling Volume.

So just what does Foot Control (cc004) control?
The answer is: almost anything you’d like. Call up the VOICE (in VOICE mode) that you want to control the Attack time via a pedal.
Press [EDIT]
Press [COMMON EDIT]
Press [F4] CTRL SET (Controller setup)
Set the SOURCE (the physical controller) = FootCtrl2(04) (Foot Control 2)
Set the DESTINATION (the parameter you want to control) = AEG ATTACK
Set the DEPTH to a (+) positive value (say +63)
Check the individual Elements 1-8 that you want to control

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cool, good info.

BM, are there tutorials and other threads you’ve talked about this on?  The assignment of controllers in Performance mode remains one of the things I really don’t get.  I’ve spent most of my time for the past 2 years in Voice mode in large part cause i just didn’t get how to set-up controllers in Performance mode (hate to admit that, but I’ve found a few of the technical issues a real challenge, and am only now, with XSpanded fueling a renewed interest, diving in on vexxing problems i’ve never solved).  Some of the new Xspanded Performances are stunning (and worth using) and have re-sold me on the whole concept of Performances-

OK, so if I understand correctly, the controller assignments of the individual Voices are retained in Performance mode, as well as the Insert Fx for each Voice.

1. So that means that, for example, the MW, assigned to different things to different Voices, will do different things for each Voice in Perf mode? 

2.  What the bleep are all the different controller assignments for?  Frustration here!  In fooling around with it, it works for some things (like Expression Controller) and then not for others.  I just assigned FC1 to cc #073 and it does nothing.

It sounds like you’re recommending setting up the FC in Voice mode, using one of the 6 controller sets to control whatever you like.  Then what is this Controller Assign page for in Performance mode? (other than, like above, setting the FC to a generic, Voice responsive setting?).  Or is that it?

I’ll gladly read past posts if this has been covered already- otherwise a thorough treatment of the subject would help me through the single most frustrating and important-to-me aspect of setting up the XS in Performance mode.  Your ideas on different ways to approach this are greatly appreciated.

My current thinking/strategy for getting realtime expression satisfaction in Performance mode is to build up banks of Voices that:
~ use AF buttons for XA control, primarily for switching in / switching out Voices (which doesn’t eat up any of the 6 controller sets)
~ use of AS knobs for Chorus and Reverb when I don’t want Chorus and Reverb applied to all elements; mostly though, for simplicities sake, not assigning anything to AS knobs, saving those control sets for clustering
~ clustering most of my real-time expression around either the MW/Ribbon (or alternately, AT/FC2): assigning 2-3 controller sets to each of these controllers makes for expressive, dramatic changes in the sound (and keeps things simple in the heat of performing).

And then once in Perf mode:
~ using the Master Effect for effecting the whole sound
~ using Performance Control to selectively target which of the 4 Voices benefits from the Selected Part Control matrix

I can’t be the only one confused and stymied by this- what could be more common than working in Performance mode and being able use the controllers as desired (esp. for live performers!)?  And there’s got to be creative ways of using all this power that’s not obvious and requires thinking it through-

Thanks!

Sorry, your post must have slipped by me…

“OK, so if I understand correctly, the controller assignments of the individual Voices are retained in Performance mode, as well as the Insert Fx for each Voice.”

Yes, for the most part. Voice mode is the basic, fundamental playable entity on the Motif XS. If the MW is assigned to control Rotary Speaker Speed Control, when an Organ sound is in VOICE mode, that will be true when you place that Voice in a PERFORMANCE or you use it in a SONG or PATTERN.

If the MW is assigned to vary Pitch Modulation Depth on a Brass sound, and you layer the Brass sound with that aforementioned Organ sound, moving the wheel will do Rotary Speaker Speed on the Organ and PMD on the Brass.

”1. So that means that, for example, the MW, assigned to different things to different Voices, will do different things for each Voice in Perf mode?”

Absolutely correct! 

“2.  What the bleep are all the different controller assignments for?  Frustration here!  In fooling around with it, it works for some things (like Expression Controller) and then not for others.  I just assigned FC1 to cc #073 and it does nothing.”

Spoken like a true piano player. This is not a bad thing, but all the controller numbers and assignments are to help keyboard players emulate other instruments. Picking the right controller for the right function is very important in allowing the rather clumsy set of ON/OFF switches we call a keyboard to do things that are articulated with bows, or mouthpieces, or picks, or sticks, or mallets, etc.

Getting a handle on the MIDI Control Change numbers, what they do and when to use them can be tricky. Some have a dedicated and very specific use. Others do not and you must select what you want them to do. Assigning cc073 to a Foot Controller would be a poor choice of assignment… for several reaons. (mostly because a dedicated control is already assigned).

Some Controllers (called “sources") go from minimum/maximum (Foot Controllers, the Mod Wheel, Control Sliders, etc), while others go above/below a center point (Knobs, Ribbon, Pitch Bend Wheel, etc).

Also some Parameters (called “destinations") go from 0-127 and other go above and below 0 (-64 ~ 0 ~ +63) or (-127 ~ 0 ~ 127) or (-8192 ~ 0000 ~ +8191)

(it is logical to match a source that is minimum/maximum with a destination that is 0-127 and to match an above/below source with a destination parameter that works the same way).

If a parameter (destination) is assigned to be controlled by two controllers (sources), you have to be prepared for either an argument, or that they may now work as expected… But there is a way round this.

By assigning a Foot Controller to cc073 (AEG ATTACK) (a POOR choice) - a controller number with a definite dedicated task… and one, by the way, with a dedicated Knob already assigned - You will find that the Foot Controller does nothing. This is a poor choice of controller for this task. ATTACK Time is a parameter that is an OFFSET parameter. This means you are adding or subtracting to the Voices Amplitude Envelope Generators ATTACK time (as stored in the VOICE).

The KNOB (ATTACK) is normal at 12 o’clock. As you turn it clockwise you slow attack. If the Voice has an immediate attack the values counterclockwise from 12 seemingly do nothing. However, if the VOICE’s Elements have their AEG so that attack time is extremely long, all of a sudden the counterclockwise turn from 12 subtracts values and makes the attack quicker.

Clearly this is a parameter that is 0 when normal but can be negative or positive. It depends, because all it does is offset the original envelope setting. That 0 does not always mean immediate attack. 0 (or the 12 o’clock position) simply means the “stored” attack time.

The following parameters are universal dedicated and almost every MIDI module in the world will respond to them in a similar fashion via MIDI:

05 Portamento Time*
07 Channel Volume
10 Pan
11 Expression
64 Sustain
65 Portamento Switch*
66 Sostenuto*
71 Harmonic Content (Emphasis/Resonance)
72 Release Time
73 Attack Time
74 Filter Cutoff (Brightness)
75 Decay Time
91 Effect 1 Reverb Send
93 Effect 3 Chorus Send

If the XS receives these commands via MIDI it will respond. So you do not want or need to assign another controller to these functions - not with a MIDI dedicated control number. If you want to assign another phsycial controller to control these already assigned functions, then you must choice a general controller (one that does not have an assigned function) to do the job and address the parameter internally via the Control Set.
01 Mod Wheel
02 Breath Control
04 Foot Control
16 General Purpose 1
17 General Purpose 2
22 Ribbon etc.

Not all functions that take place in the XS are via the universal/dedicated MIDI messages. What if you want to control Element 7 separately from the rest? How do you control its Volume? What if you want to change the ATTACK time of only Elements 1, 2, 3 and 4, while leaving Elements 5, 6, 7, and 8 alone? or in opposite directions. Dedicated Control Change numbers are not sufficient.

On the Controller Setup screen you can assign physical controllers to a list of destinations and you have a grid that allows you to specify which of the 8 Elements will be affected… *

* if the destination is an ELEMENT parameter. Sometimes you do not have a choice as the destination parameter is not element specific (in this case the checks are grayed out)

You use a non-dedicated CONTROL CHANGE number (like cc016, the default for the AS1 knob or cc004 Foot Control) and internally direct it to “AEG-Attack” found on the list of destination parameters - this avoids the argument/conflict of two physical controllers, being assigned the same dedicated fixed purpose control number.

Hope that helps.

This thread would be a great article for the support sections !

Done!

:)

:) Very good and fast!

The BM´s answers, even if not in support area, are always “support documents” for itself!

Great, really appreciate all the helpful info.  Yes, a piano player here- trying to make sense of my ultra fancy lead-free plastic ivories!  As you said this gets a bit tricky, and I’m still trying to wrap my head around all this.  The example of cc #073 was just an example from the original posters post.  I’m more interested in common destinations like reverb / chorus / cutoff / portamento / e-level / AEG release / etc.

What I understand so far: from the Controller Assign page in Performance mode, FC2 is assigned a generic destination (cc #004), which is then accessed via the individual Voices using Controller Sets (that point to FC2).  OR, from the Controller Assign page in Performance mode, I could assign FC2 to a cc # of an existing controller (like the MW), and then the FC2 controls what the MW controls.  Excellent, that’s much of the functional understanding I was looking for.

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But I’m still wondering, with the Performance mode Controller Assign page having 95 potential destinations (and at least 14 of them universally recognized MIDI cc destinations), as well as 9 controller Sources, there’s gotta be some really creative uses of all these routing options (esp. as Voice mode has its own Controller Assign page).  At this point it sounds like it’s only good for the few things mentioned in the above paragraph.

And as general feedback from someone that tripped up on this stuff for far too long (unnecessary complexity because of how it’s presented?), there’s got to be a better way of showing the Controller Assign page in Performance mode.  If (by my testing), cc 007 and cc 011 are the only cc that respond directly to a controller, and in general this page is relevant mostly for working with Control Sets in Voice mode, then it’s mis-leading to have all these potential parameters to set-up when they don’t do anything. (hope this is clear: as an end user, I see the expression function for FC1, see its routing and think, cool, all these other sources and destinations will work the same way: NOT!)

Thanks,
Randelph

“But I’m still wondering, with the Performance mode Controller Assign page having 95 potential destinations (and at least 14 of them universally recognized MIDI cc destinations), as well as 9 controller Sources, there’s gotta be some really creative uses of all these routing options (esp. as Voice mode has its own Controller Assign page).  At this point it sounds like it’s only good for the few things mentioned in the above paragraph.”

Perhaps I was not clear. But VOICE mode is where you assign controllers to VOICES and to specific parameters.
You do so as follows:
Press [VOICE] to be in VOICE mode
Press [EDIT]
Press [COMMON EDIT]
Press [F4] CONTROL SET
This is where you can program Source/Destination/Depth/Element assignments.

What you are talking about in PERFORMANCE mode is not what I was talking about. I was trying to tell you where to look to program your Controllers.

What’s going on in PERFORMANCE > EDIT > COMMON EDIT > CTRL ASGN is an entirely different thing. Here you can customize what each physical controller is sending. And you can set it up to match what you want to happen for the specific Voices you may have customized in Voice mode. It also allows you to change from program to program what a controller is doing.

Controllers are globally assigned for Voice mode - but a customizable on a per PERFORMANCE (and on a per SONG/PATTERN MIXING program).

Example: Say you only have one FC7 (I cannot imagine playing a Motif XS with just one FC7, but many do)… You may want this pedal to do double duty… you can’t keep switching jacks on the gig… so you plug the FC7 into the Foot Controller 1 jack.

Obviously when playing Organ sounds you need it to be an Expression pedal set to send cc011 ... But later you are going to need to play a lead guitar sound with the VCM PEDAL WAH Effect… (as in the Voice “Oct FuzzPedalWah FC2” PRE 3: 001(A01)

If you only have one FC7 and you are in VOICE mode you would be stuck… So you might have your favorite organ VOICE setup to respond to FC1(cc011). What you do is program it into a Performance. In the Performance you have FC1(cc011)

Your guitar Voice (in Voice mode) has FC2(04) programmed as the Wah “Pedal Control”. So you place this Voice in a Performance.

Performances allow you to customize your physical controllers… without having to destructively change the original Voice. So you set the Foot Controller 1 Control No. = 04

And without unpluggin anything you now control the Wah Pedal.

But the original programming is always done in VOICE mode. What the Controller Assignment function does in PERFORMANCE is let adapt each PERFORMANCE. You see Controllers for VOICE mode are global. FC1 defaults to Expression for every VOICE, every one of the 1,154 Voices have the same controller assignments.

But you can customize what each physical controller sends on a per Performance basis.

Now I want to make clear one more point… when you assign a Control number to a phsycial controller, if it conflicts with a dedicated controller (as outlined in the post above), that only means it is not going to affect the internal XS tone engine… it certainly will affect any thing connected via MIDI… So say you did assign the Foot Controller to 73, although it would do nothing internally, any MIDI device connected to the MIDI OUT jack will change it AEG-Attack time.

As always, thanks for the thoughtful reply.

Actually, I’ve been stuck in Voice mode for a loooong time (not knowing how to set up controllers in Perf mode, THANKS for the help!), so I do understand about Control Sets and that they’re where most of the set-up for controllers is happening.

Knowing the functional basics, my last post was mostly wondering about some of the creative applications possible in Perf mode using the Control Assign page- and you shared one right there, one Foot Controller managing both cc011 and cc004. 

And thanks for the clarification on how this affects MIDI out messages.

Randelph

This thread is very helpful to me since I am trying to make some sense out of the controller assignments. I reread this thread many times and I still don’t fully understand what happened under the hood.  I apologize if these questions have been answered somewhere else already.

a) I tried a following test:

In the [VOICE] --> [COMMON EDIT] --> [CONTROL SET], I assigned Ribbon Controller to control Attack Time.  The controller worked.  I used a brass sound and the effect was apparent.

I put that voice into a performance.
In [PERFORMANCE] --> [COMMON EDIT] --> [CTRL ASGN], I assigned Ribbon Controller to cc011 (Expression). 
Now the Ribbon Controller controlled “both” volume and attack time.

Question (1):  Is this what happened? The Ribbon Controller sent 2 signals in this case. One signal was Attack Time (cc073) which was sent “internally” to the voice.  The other signal was [removed]cc011) which was sent “externally” (for lack of better words) and also happened to affect the voice.

b) I tried another test:

In the [VOICE] --> [COMMON EDIT] --> [CONTROL SET], I assigned Pitch Bend to control Attack Time.  Now, still in Voice Mode, my Pitch Bend Wheel controlled both pitch and Attack Time.

Question (2): Is the reason that Pitch Bend Wheel controlled both parameters at the same time is the fact that Pitch Bend Wheel “always defaults” to control Pitch?  Was it sending both cc001 and cc073 “internally” at the same time?

Question (3): I don’t have FC7 and I am very curious. If I plugged FC7 into the first Foot Controller jack (FC1), which you mentioned defaulted to cc011.  If, still in voice mode, I then assigned FC1 to control Attack Time.  Would FC7 control both Expression and Attack Time, in the same way as Pitch Bend controlled both Pitch and Attack Time?

Question (4): From Question (3), if I were to take that voice into performance mode and in [CTRL ASGN], I set FC7 to control cc022.  Would FC7 now control 3 parameters: Expression, Attack Time, and whatever parameter that Ribbon Controller was controlling?

Question (5): This is my ultimate confusion. 

From Bad_Mister

Now I want to make clear one more point… when you assign a Control number to a phsycial controller, if it conflicts with a dedicated controller (as outlined in the post above), that only means it is not going to affect the internal XS tone engine

Regarding Question (1): In Performance, I assigned Ribbon Controller to cc011 which was one of the dedicated controller from the list of your first post, but I could still use Ribbon Controller to control volume (Expression).  However, if I assigned Ribbon Controller to cc072 (Release Time), then the Ribbon Controller did nothing and so did the dedicated knob.  Note that after I changed the Ribbon Controller to other CC (i,e cc022), the knob resumed control of Release Time. What was going on here?

I am sorry for a lot of questions. I really appreciate your help.  Again, I apologize if the answer have been given somewhere else.

Bad Mister says: “By assigning a Foot Controller to cc073 (AEG ATTACK) (a POOR choice) - a controller number with a definite dedicated task… and one, by the way, with a dedicated Knob already assigned - You will find that the Foot Controller does nothing.”

I purchased an aftermarket set of “vintage” voices which includes “Won’t Get Fooled Again” which my band wants to play.  To achieve the full affect of the original, the AS1(attack) knob muxt be continuously rotated back and forth.  I would prefer to do this with my FC7.  However, when I attempt to assign FC2 to AEG Attack, it doesn’t do nothing as you suggest, it turns the ARP switch on and off.  When I assign the controller to be the Mod wheel instead of FC2, the same thing happens; the ARP switch goes on and off.

What am I doing wrong and is there any way to change the controller for this effect from AS1 to FC2?

I purchased an aftermarket set of “vintage” voices which includes “Won’t Get Fooled Again” which my band wants to play.  To achieve the full affect of the original, the AS1(attack) knob muxt be continuously rotated back and forth.  I would prefer to do this with my FC7.

And for all the reasons explained above you want to do this by assigning the Foot Controller in the VOICE’s CONTROL SET

VOICE mode is where you assign controllers to VOICES and to specific parameters.
You do so as follows:
Press [VOICE] to be in VOICE mode
Press [EDIT]
Press [COMMON EDIT]
Press [F4] CONTROL SET
This is where you can program Source/Destination/Depth/Element assignments.

You will want to set one of the Foot Controllers; I recommend Foot Controller 2 - which defaults to cc004, as follows:

SOURCE = FootCtrl2(04)
DESTINATION = AEG ATTACK
DEPTH = a positive value to your taste
ELEMENT = check all Elements that you wish to control

Now you have a non-dedicated controller assigned to control the AEG Attack of the VOICE you wish to control.

Store this newly edited VOICE to a USER location and substitute it for the one in your PERFORMANCE.

However, when I attempt to assign FC2 to AEG Attack, it doesn’t do nothing as you suggest, it turns the ARP switch on and off.  When I assign the controller to be the Mod wheel instead of FC2, the same thing happens; the ARP switch goes on and off.

lol, this means you have changed somethings from their normal assignments.

In your PERFORMANCE go to the following screen and verify your controller assignments:
Press [EDIT]
Press [COMMON EDIT]
Press [F3] CTRL ASGN

The following are the normal defaults:

Ribbon Controller = 22
Foot Controller 1 = 11
Foot Controller 2 = 04
Foot Switch Control No. = 088
Assign 1 Control No. = 16
Assign 2 Control No. = 17
A. Function 1 = 86
A. Function 2 = 87
Breath Controller = 02

Typically the ARP SWITCH is only assignable to the FOOT SWITCH and only if you set this 096 ARP SWITCH.

A Foot Switch (in Yamaha-speak is a momentary pedal, an FC4/FC5)
The Foot Controller is a sweep pedal - the FC7

Hope that helps.

Thanks you for the assistance. 

I followed your instructions in part 1 of your guidance to no avail.  Assigning FC2 to AEG Attack did not change the fact that the foot controller continued to turn on and off the ARP switch so I went to part 2 of your instructions. 

I verified the settings were as they were supposed to be according to your message (in PERFORMANCE-COMMON EDIT-CTRL ASGN) including the setting for Assign 1 which was set to control number 16 with the message[GENERAL1] next to it on the right.  Out of shear frustration and trial and error I finally found the combination that worked.  When I set FC2 also to control No. 16[GENERAL1], I found that my FC7 plugged into FC2 now also controlled the same effect as AS1.  Success!

For now…