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Viewing topic "Help! S90ES Basic Receive Channel changes"

     
Posted on: October 27, 2020 @ 12:26 PM
V-man
Total Posts:  27
Joined  01-19-2020
status: Regular

Hi,

I have an issue that I don’t understand. I have set and stored the Basic Receive Channel in the Utility mode on my S90ES to channel 8. I have a D50 where I have set the TX midi channel on some of the patches to channel 8 so I can play the S90ES sounds from the D50 when I choose certain patches. But as soon as I press the Bank/patch select buttons on the D50 to select one of these patches with the TX channel set to channel 8, the Basic Receive Channel in the Utility mode on the S90ES changes to channel 1 !!??

Can anyone explain what is happening here and how I can prevent the Basic Receive Channel to change on the S90ES when I select patches on the D50?

When I select other patches that have different TX channels in the patch midi settings the Basic Receive Channel on the S90ES remains at channel 8.

I thought the settings in utility mode on the S90ES was fixed and could not be controlled by some external device thru midi, but somehow this happens!

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Posted on: October 27, 2020 @ 05:15 PM
5pinDIN
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There is a SysEx message which can change the Basic Receive Channel via MIDI…
F0 43 10 7F 01 00 00 0A dd F7
where dd = Basic Receive Channel
00~0F hex is channels 1~16
10 hex is omni (all channels)
7F is off

However, it normally shouldn’t change just by receiving external Bank Select and/or Program Change messages. Not that I’m aware of any such problems with early firmware, but which version is installed on your S90ES? To check…
Hold down the both the [MASTER] and [STORE] buttons while powering on. Read the “Firm” value.

The most recent is version 1.03 - if yours isn’t, you might consider updating…
https://usa.yamaha.com/support/updates/21152_en.html

  [ Ignore ]  

Posted on: October 27, 2020 @ 11:49 PM
V-man
Total Posts:  27
Joined  01-19-2020
status: Regular

Yes, I have an older version, 1.00. Do I need to back up all settings befor upgrading?

The issu is certainly strange. As far as I know there isn’t any way to send customized SysEx messages from the D50 so something is happening under the surface.

I also discovered that there is similar issues internaly in the S90ES. When I switch between voice mode and master mode and then switch between a couple of masters I noticed that the Basic Receieve Channel and also the Keyboard Transmit Channel changed randomly. Suddenly the BRCh could be set to 5 and the KTCh to 2.

  [ Ignore ]  

Posted on: October 28, 2020 @ 04:12 AM
5pinDIN
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V-man - 27 October 2020 11:49 PM

Yes, I have an older version, 1.00. Do I need to back up all settings befor upgrading?

I certainly think that’s a good idea.

 

V-man -

The issu is certainly strange. As far as I know there isn’t any way to send customized SysEx messages from the D50 so something is happening under the surface.

I also discovered that there is similar issues internaly in the S90ES. When I switch between voice mode and master mode and then switch between a couple of masters I noticed that the Basic Receieve Channel and also the Keyboard Transmit Channel changed randomly. Suddenly the BRCh could be set to 5 and the KTCh to 2.

While Yamaha claims that version 1.03 “Solved some small problems”, I don’t know what version 1.02 might have fixed. I suggest doing the update - just make sure that power to the S90ES won’t be interrupted during the process. After unzipping the download, be sure to read and follow the “Readme” directions.

  [ Ignore ]  

Posted on: October 28, 2020 @ 08:18 AM
V-man
Total Posts:  27
Joined  01-19-2020
status: Regular

Have done the upgrade now without problems, but there is still no change in the behavior. One thing I discovered is that the Keyboard Transmit Channel (which I have set to OFF) changes when you are in Master mode, activate Track selection and click on for example track nbr 3 button, the Keyboard Transmit Channel in Utility mode changes to channel 3. This make sense in a way since the TX channel of zone 3 in Master is default set to channel 3, but sadly it does not change the Keyboard Transmit Channel back to “OFF” when I leave that Master and go back to voice mode for example.

Sadly, the issue with the Basic Receive Channel remains. When I select a patch on the D50 that have the same TX channel set as the BRCh on the S90ES, the BRCh in utility mode on the S90ES changes to channel 1. It feels very strange that this behavior is by design. I have set all other kind of midi communication parameters to “OFF” on the D50. Only thing that is active is the Patch midi TX channel which is only connected to the keybed so I can play externa tone generators via that channel on the D50.

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Posted on: October 28, 2020 @ 09:46 AM
5pinDIN
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I’m glad that the OS update went without incident, but sorry that it didn’t resolve the problem. I’ve never owned a Yamaha stage model (I have both an XS and XF), so unfortunately the issue you’re experiencing isn’t one I have a solution for. You might want to contact Yamaha Support in your country - hopefully they’ll have some insight about this.

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Posted on: October 28, 2020 @ 11:48 PM
V-man
Total Posts:  27
Joined  01-19-2020
status: Regular

Actually I’ve been starting to believe that the problem is not on the S90ES side. I will analyze with MIDI-OX exactly what signal is comming from the D50 and then ask questions in some Roland synth forums about this. Apparently there is some hidden menus and settings after all in the D50 that can be displayed with some special boot sequence trick.

Thank’s for your engagement in this somewhat strange issue.

  [ Ignore ]  

Posted on: October 29, 2020 @ 02:34 AM
5pinDIN
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V-man - 28 October 2020 11:48 PM

Actually I’ve been starting to believe that the problem is not on the S90ES side. I will analyze with MIDI-OX exactly what signal is comming from the D50 and then ask questions in some Roland synth forums about this. Apparently there is some hidden menus and settings after all in the D50 that can be displayed with some special boot sequence trick.

If you find that the D50 is sending other than standard Bank Select (status “B") and Program Change (status “C") messages, it would indeed be interesting to know what that is.

 

V-man -

Thank’s for your engagement in this somewhat strange issue.

You’re welcome. Please keep us informed.

  [ Ignore ]  

Posted on: October 29, 2020 @ 04:32 AM
V-man
Total Posts:  27
Joined  01-19-2020
status: Regular

Just for you information, have monitored the MIDI input-output via MIDI-OX now, but since I’m not a true MIDI guru I’m not sure how to interpret the data. :)

Just to remind, the S90ES Basic Receive Channel is set to 8 but is mysteriously set to channel 1 when doing below actions.

MIDI-OX Input when selecting patch 58 that have MIDI TX ch set to 8:

TIMESTAMP IN PORT STATUS DATA1 DATA2 CHAN NOTE EVENT
000153E2 1 — BE 7C 00 15 --- CC: Omni Off
000153EA 1 — BE 7F 00 15 --- CC: Poly On
0001567B 1 — B7 7C 00 8 --- CC: Omni Off
0001567E 1 — B7 7F 00 8 --- CC: Poly On

MIDI-OX Output when selecting patch 58 that have MIDI TX ch set to 8:

TIMESTAMP IN PORT STATUS DATA1 DATA2 CHAN NOTE EVENT
0003431E 1 1 BF 7C 00 16 --- CC: Omni Off
0003431E 1 2 BF 7C 00 16 --- CC: Omni Off
00034326 1 1 BF 7F 00 16 --- CC: Poly On
00034326 1 2 BF 7F 00 16 --- CC: Poly On
00034BF7 1 1 B7 7C 00 8 --- CC: Omni Off
00034BF7 1 2 B7 7C 00 8 --- CC: Omni Off
00034BFA 1 1 B7 7F 00 8 --- CC: Poly On
00034BFA 1 2 B7 7F 00 8 --- CC: Poly On

Just as an example, below is what is generated when selecting another patch of the D50 that have another TX channel set, in this case channel 2.

MIDI-OX Input when selecting patch 83 that has MIDI TX set to ch 2:

TIMESTAMP IN PORT STATUS DATA1 DATA2 CHAN NOTE EVENT
000513E9 1 — B2 7C 00 3 --- CC: Omni Off
000513EA 1 — B2 7F 00 3 --- CC: Poly On
000517A4 1 — B1 7C 00 2 --- CC: Omni Off
000517A5 1 — B1 7F 00 2 --- CC: Poly On

MIDI-OX Output when selecting patch 83 that has MIDI TX set to ch 2:

TIMESTAMP IN PORT STATUS DATA1 DATA2 CHAN NOTE EVENT
000513E9 1 1 B2 7C 00 3 --- CC: Omni Off
000513E9 1 2 B2 7C 00 3 --- CC: Omni Off
000513EA 1 1 B2 7F 00 3 --- CC: Poly On
000513EA 1 2 B2 7F 00 3 --- CC: Poly On
000517A4 1 1 B1 7C 00 2 --- CC: Omni Off
000517A4 1 2 B1 7C 00 2 --- CC: Omni Off
000517A5 1 1 B1 7F 00 2 --- CC: Poly On
000517A5 1 2 B1 7F 00 2 --- CC: Poly On

Will try to get more information thru some Roland forum also.

  [ Ignore ]  

Posted on: October 29, 2020 @ 08:26 AM
5pinDIN
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Those messages are neither Bank Select nor Program Change - they are control messages for the Omni and Poly modes. Omni-off/Poly is Mode 3. See https://pages.uoregon.edu/emi/36.php

The “E” in the “BE” Status byte corresponds to MIDI channel 15
The “F” in “BF” corresponds to MIDI channel 16

“7C” is the CC# for Omni off
“7F” is the CC# for Poly on

So if that’s what the D50 sends when you select particular patches on it, it’s no wonder that the S90ES does unusual things.

See this for how BS/PC messages normally look…
http://midi.teragonaudio.com/tutr/bank.htm

Hopefully someone familiar with setting up the D50 can help you resolve the situation.

  [ Ignore ]  

Posted on: October 31, 2020 @ 03:27 PM
V-man
Total Posts:  27
Joined  01-19-2020
status: Regular
5pinDIN - 29 October 2020 08:26 AM

Those messages are neither Bank Select nor Program Change - they are control messages for the Omni and Poly modes. Omni-off/Poly is Mode 3. See https://pages.uoregon.edu/emi/36.php

The “E” in the “BE” Status byte corresponds to MIDI channel 15
The “F” in “BF” corresponds to MIDI channel 16

“7C" is the CC# for Omni off
“7F” is the CC# for Poly on

So if that’s what the D50 sends when you select particular patches on it, it’s no wonder that the S90ES does unusual things.

See this for how BS/PC messages normally look…
http://midi.teragonaudio.com/tutr/bank.htm

Hopefully someone familiar with setting up the D50 can help you resolve the situation.

Yeah, this is so strange. Why the D50 transmits all these peculiar messages even if all types of outgoing message parameters are set to OFF really is a mystery. And also why does the S90 react on it this way? May be the S90 reacts like it senses something that it can’t interpret and then do some kind of midi reset (panic) thing? The story continues…

  [ Ignore ]  

Posted on: November 03, 2020 @ 12:24 AM
V-man
Total Posts:  27
Joined  01-19-2020
status: Regular

Hi, have no news regarding the main issue here, but meanwhile I’ve managed to do a work around by setting the Basic Receive Channel to OFF and control MIDI TX/RX channel routing exclusively via MASTER and MULTI modes in different set ups.

By the way, is there a some other way to toggle between track selections within a MULTI by some other means than the track selection buttons, for example by using some other button, a foot controller or some external midi control device, Nano Control, Akai MPX8, Akai LPD8 or similar?

  [ Ignore ]  

Posted on: November 03, 2020 @ 02:56 AM
5pinDIN
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If you haven’t already done so, I suggest that you download the S90ES Data List. It provides information on what can be controlled by external devices, and how…
https://usa.yamaha.com/files/download/other_assets/0/333730/s90es_en2.pdf
(Note that there’s a significant error in that manual. See…
http://www.motifator.com/index.php/forum/viewthread/468118/)

In particular, read the information under the Bank Select table on page 59 of the Data List.

Using an external controller other than the D50 should work, provided that the Basic Receive Channel isn’t disabled.

Since you’re familiar with MIDI-OX, you might want to use it to try out any messages (BS, PC, etc.) to verify that the S90ES responds as expected.

  [ Ignore ]