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Viewing topic "Seamless switching of sounds S90ES and external devices?"

     
Posted on: October 25, 2020 @ 09:51 AM
V-man
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Joined  01-19-2020
status: Regular

Hi,

is there any kind of set up on the S90ES that can provide seamless switching with no interrupt of sound controlling internal voices together with external sound generators?

My scenario is that I have a old P150 (running on fumes) acompanied with a D50 and a Integra7. I ‘ve got my hands on a S90ES that might be a suitable replacement but I can’t figure out a way to achieve the same simple and seamless midi control of external devices that I could do with the old P150.

To start with, the P150 have a convenient midi on/off button that really is so great and allow me to super fast switch the midi transmit signals on- and off, turning the sounds of the external device on- and off, like if want to toggle the string/pad sound from the Integra7 on- and off as a layer to the P150’s internal piano sound. You can also assign different midi TX channels completely free for each performance bank of the P150 which allows for seamles switching between different sounds of the Integra7 where I have different sounds in a LiveSet recieving midi signals on different channels. I can on the P150 for example have Perfomance A1 transmitting on midi ch 1 and Performance A2 transmitting on midi ch 2, and when I toggle between these two perfomances on the P150 there is no interruption of the sounds on the Integra7.

I know that switching the TX midi signals on- and off to external devices can be achieved on the S90ES toggling between voice mode and master mode according to instructions from Phil Clendeninn. But the problem is that when switching beteween voice- and master mode, sustained sounds will be cut off, which is not the case using the midi on/off button on the P150 (which is an old relic of the early 90-ties!!).

I have not been able to solve this by using different zones either. May be it is not possible to switch/mute between zones on the S90ES??

If I try with a mixing set up, where I understand that you can switch between parts/tracks, the problem is that it seems that it is not possible to freely assign transmit channels to each part. Transmit channels seem to be bound to the track numbers. Only recieve channels can be set on each part in a mix.

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Posted on: October 25, 2020 @ 11:02 AM
5pinDIN
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Please allow me to clarify a few points…
The S90ES doesn’t have “mixings”. Mixings are functions of Song/Pattern modes, found in the Motif models, such as the ES/XS/XF. For the S90ES, seamless switching can be done in Multi mode, which I suspect is what you are referring to.

It’s true that Parts can’t be assigned transmit channels. That’s because Parts receive MIDI data, they don’t transmit it. Tracks are the MIDI transmitters. In the S90ES, the transmit channel is indeed locked to the Track number.

There is more flexibility in the Motif models. With them, under Song or Pattern Play modes, each Track can be assigned any of the 16 MIDI channels, or turned “Off”. In addition, keyboard data can be selectively routed internally and/or externally. A Song/Pattern Mixing can be used for seamless transition between sounds.

It appears that a better choice for your needs would be one of the Motifs.

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Posted on: October 25, 2020 @ 11:24 AM
V-man
Total Posts:  27
Joined  01-19-2020
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Okey, thank’s for the instant response! :)

First, is the flexibility you mention in the Motifs mix/song mode equal between all models, ES/XS/XF?

And yes, ofcourse as you said, it was Multi mode I actually was referring to, not mix, in the S90ES. But you mention that seamless switching can be done in Multi mode in the S90ES. How?? I just can’t get my head around this.

Is the seamless switching in Multi mode on the S90ES only working when you use the internal tone generator exclusively?

Can seamless switching be achieved in a scenario where I first need a single internal piano sound (like S700) and then in a split second need to add a string/pad sound from a external device as a stacked layer to the internal piano sound without any sound interupts?

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Posted on: October 25, 2020 @ 12:14 PM
5pinDIN
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V-man - 25 October 2020 11:24 AM

Okey, thank’s for the instant response! :)

You’re welcome.

 

V-man -

First, is the flexibility you mention in the Motifs mix/song mode equal between all models, ES/XS/XF?

The functions are similar, although the display on the XS/XF models makes access easier.

 

V-man -

And yes, ofcourse as you said, it was Multi mode I actually was referring to, not mix, in the S90ES. But you mention that seamless switching can be done in Multi mode in the S90ES. How?? I just can’t get my head around this.

Is the seamless switching in Multi mode on the S90ES only working when you use the internal tone generator exclusively?

See http://www.motifator.com/index.php/forum/viewthread/461950/

I don’t know how external devices would react in this case.

 

V-man -

Can seamless switching be achieved in a scenario where I first need a single internal piano sound (like S700) and then in a split second need to add a string/pad sound from a external device as a stacked layer to the internal piano sound without any sound interupts?

That shouldn’t be a problem with a Motif model Mixing. With a Motif the approach least prone to error while performing might be to have one numbered Track button set for playing just the internal sound, another button for both the internal and external. There are other methods, but likely less desirable when under pressure.

You might also find these threads interesting:
http://www.motifator.com/index.php/forum/viewthread/481629/
http://www.motifator.com/index.php/forum/viewthread/478145/

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Posted on: October 25, 2020 @ 02:47 PM
V-man
Total Posts:  27
Joined  01-19-2020
status: Regular

Okay, great information. Really appreciate it!

Just one more thing, which is a bit of a side track, but when I bring a voice into a multi, the sound is not the same as the original voice. For example I have a piano with a chorus effect applied in the voice, but when I assign it to a part in a multi there is suddenly no chorus on the piano and the sound is also more mellow than the original voice, almost as the keyboard velocity curve have change to harder or the cutoff frequenzy changes. I understand that this may have something to do with how the S90SE handles the effects, may be?? Is there a way to tell the multi to preserve the voice settings as it is stored in the voice it self?

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Posted on: October 25, 2020 @ 03:48 PM
5pinDIN
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System Effects (reverb and chorus) of a Voice aren’t copied to a Part in the Multi because they may be inappropriate for the other Parts. Of course you can manually set their levels.

Insertion Effects can be applied to eight of the 16 Parts of a Multi. If these effects are missing for a particular Part, you may have to disable them in another Part if the total is already eight.

The “S” in “S90ES” refers to “Stage”. The Stage models are meant mostly to be used for performing. The Motif workstation models don’t have some of the limitations of the Stage models. One example is that certain Motif “Copy” Jobs make duplicating a Voice sound in a Multi (Song/Pattern) easier to accomplish.

The Melas “Voice Copier” may be useful…
http://www.jmelas.gr/motif/tools.php
...or perhaps the demo for the S90ES…
http://www.jmelas.gr/motif/es/products.php

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Posted on: October 25, 2020 @ 11:43 PM
V-man
Total Posts:  27
Joined  01-19-2020
status: Regular

Thank’s, this i really good info. It seems like I might need to take a closer look at the Motifs instead! It’s a pity they are so bulky though. The S90’s are still quite portable in comparison.

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Posted on: October 26, 2020 @ 06:22 AM
5pinDIN
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V-man - 25 October 2020 11:43 PM

Thank’s, this i really good info.

No problem.

 

V-man -

It seems like I might need to take a closer look at the Motifs instead! It’s a pity they are so bulky though. The S90’s are still quite portable in comparison.

Yes, the XS8 and XF8 are a bit bulkier than the S90ES, and weigh about 1/3 more.

If portability is a major deciding factor, then the MOXF8 might be worth considering. It’s slightly smaller, and weighs about 1/3 less than the S90ES. However, the weight reduction comes with compromise - the keybed isn’t the same as in the Motif models. The feel is different, and there’s no aftertouch. The display is also not as large as on the XS/XF and is monochrome. There are other factors to consider, but it does have the ability to assign MIDI channels to Tracks, turn on/off internal/external transmission, etc., as with the Motifs.

Best of luck in deciding which model is most appropriate for your needs.

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Posted on: October 27, 2020 @ 08:12 AM
V-man
Total Posts:  27
Joined  01-19-2020
status: Regular
5pinDIN - 26 October 2020 06:22 AM
V-man - 25 October 2020 11:43 PM

Thank’s, this i really good info.

No problem.

 

V-man -

It seems like I might need to take a closer look at the Motifs instead! It’s a pity they are so bulky though. The S90’s are still quite portable in comparison.

Yes, the XS8 and XF8 are a bit bulkier than the S90ES, and weigh about 1/3 more.

If portability is a major deciding factor, then the MOXF8 might be worth considering. It’s slightly smaller, and weighs about 1/3 less than the S90ES. However, the weight reduction comes with compromise - the keybed isn’t the same as in the Motif models. The feel is different, and there’s no aftertouch. The display is also not as large as on the XS/XF and is monochrome. There are other factors to consider, but it does have the ability to assign MIDI channels to Tracks, turn on/off internal/external transmission, etc., as with the Motifs.

Best of luck in deciding which model is most appropriate for your needs.

Thank’s! Yes I have been thinking about the MOXF8 but since I’m essentially a piano player it’s hard to ignore the lesser quality keybed. I really like the keybed on the S90ES and the Motif’s.

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Posted on: November 16, 2020 @ 10:52 AM
V-man
Total Posts:  27
Joined  01-19-2020
status: Regular
5pinDIN - 25 October 2020 03:48 PM

System Effects (reverb and chorus) of a Voice aren’t copied to a Part in the Multi because they may be inappropriate for the other Parts. Of course you can manually set their levels.

Insertion Effects can be applied to eight of the 16 Parts of a Multi. If these effects are missing for a particular Part, you may have to disable them in another Part if the total is already eight.

The “S” in “S90ES” refers to “Stage”. The Stage models are meant mostly to be used for performing. The Motif workstation models don’t have some of the limitations of the Stage models. One example is that certain Motif “Copy” Jobs make duplicating a Voice sound in a Multi (Song/Pattern) easier to accomplish.

The Melas “Voice Copier” may be useful…
http://www.jmelas.gr/motif/tools.php
...or perhaps the demo for the S90ES…
http://www.jmelas.gr/motif/es/products.php

Hi again, still struggling a bit with sound characteristics in Multi mode on the S90SE. I wonder what the difference is between the two EQ settings in Multi Common Edit? One is the MEQ Offset setting in the Common/General tab and the other one is the MEQ setting in the Common/ MEQ/MEF tab? How do these relate to each other and how should they be used?

I have a situation where I have saved a user voice based on the PRE1/A/1 piano sound. The only tweak I have made is in the EQ offset on the voice common edit and saved it as a new user voice. As I understand I actually need to do some kind of manual EQ tweaking in Multi mode to get the same sound characteristics when I bring in the voice in a part in a Multi.

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Posted on: November 18, 2020 @ 07:56 AM
5pinDIN
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I own a Motif XS and an XF. While both have Master EQ settings in Song/Pattern (Multi) Common Edit, they don’t have the Offset Parameter. After looking at the S90ES Owner’s Manual on pages 123, 158, and 150, I’m unable to answer your question(s) - it appears that both the MEQ and MEQ OFS settings apply to all Parts of a Multi, although apparently the MID setting can’t be offset.

Unless someone else replies with more insight, I suggest either experimenting with the settings, or contacting Yamaha Support.

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Posted on: November 18, 2020 @ 08:28 AM
V-man
Total Posts:  27
Joined  01-19-2020
status: Regular

Yeah, it is a bit strange how this work I would say. Needs further investigation indeed.

You tipped me about the J. Melas software tools and I have managed to try out the Multi Editor. It works fine and there is also this voice copier functionality included in Multi Editor which allow you to copy ALL voice settings and parameters into part to get the voice sound exactly the same as in voice mode.

BUT in my experience, trying this out, it seem to be a truth with modification. It is true that visually all settings and parameters are included in the copying process but what both puzzles and annoys me is that the key velocity curve, or how the velocity dynamics of the voice is handled, seem to change when the voice is copied in to a part of a Multi. This even if I choose to include all the available voice settings and parameters.

As I understand the preset piano voices are often built up with 4 elements, each responsible for different parts of the keyboard range or different velocity dependent sound characteristics. For example, when playing the PRE1/A/001 voice in voice mode, the dynamic transition of the sound characteristics going from mellow hitting the keys softly to being more and more bright by hitting the keys harder and harder is very smooth and seamless. But when the same voice is copied into a part in a Multi with the J. Melas tool the velocity dynamics change making the characteristics of the sound change in clear steps from mellow to bright instead of the smooth transition in voice mode. Very disturbing IMO.

Is there an explanation for this behavior and some possible solution???

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Posted on: November 18, 2020 @ 09:28 AM
5pinDIN
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The only thing I can suggest to you is to compare velocity-related Parameter settings for a Voice within the Multi versus those in Voice mode. See [F5] VCE ED information on pages 157 and 161 of the Owner’s Manual. Look at both Common and Element settings via Multi mode VCE ED and those in Voice mode. If you find discrepancies, you might contact John Melas.

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Posted on: November 18, 2020 @ 09:39 AM
V-man
Total Posts:  27
Joined  01-19-2020
status: Regular

Aaargh, was just authoring a reply to my self here! :)

Found what’s causing the velocity dynamics differencies. It’s because in the Part in the Multi there is a cutoff parameter you can change which seem to be (of course) a offset value. If I make sure this is set to “0” in the part the voice velocity dynamics behaves the same as in voice mode, but since this was set to +40 some how, probably me forgetting it was actually me who did it my self, I got this step by step behavior in the velocity dynamics. I guess the S90ES isn’t that refined and “smart” so that it can handle the cutoff offset in complete smoothness.

Another take away for me here is that the EQ offset parameter that is available in common edit mode for a voice does not seem to transfer in the voice copying to the part in the Multi. But if I make the same EQ offset parameter setting in the Multi common edit mode I get pretty much the same result. May be there is some kind of logic behind the fact that offset parameter settings are not transferred in the copying process of a voice. ...on the other hand the voice common offset parameters are somehow stored within the “boundaries” of a voice so a little bit strange it is.

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