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Viewing topic "Rewriting samples XF"

     
Posted on: October 02, 2020 @ 03:37 PM
just_a_dude
Total Posts:  19
Joined  07-22-2020
status: Regular

1. Is there any dependency between the Motif XF firmware and the file all.n3.X3A or others?
For an example: what happens if I load an old n3.X3A file that was made on the factory firmware to a Motif with a more recent firmware version?

If this file was created when the FL1 and FL2 were empty, will the links to their samples be destroyed?

2. How can I erase all links to samples in the system if the task is to format all flashboards and write other libraries in a new order?

3. How many rewrite cycles do Yamaha flashboards allow (sound libraries, live recording to Motif)? Does it happen that after many rewrites, the synthesizer starts to slow down or work incorrectly?

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Posted on: October 03, 2020 @ 03:37 AM
5pinDIN
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Files saved under an older OS version than is currently installed on the XF will function correctly when loaded. The firmware won’t be affected. (Files saved under an OS more current than the installed one may exhibit loss of certain functionality.)

The XF’s “links” to Waveforms residing on the flash modules is via the Waveform List. Settings of the Load options ...
USR > ???
FL1 > ???
FL2 > ???
... determine the disposition of the Waveform List. Setting FL1 and/or FL2 to “None” will leave the List as is.

2) After formatting the flash modules, load the sample libraries, with the Load options set to “FL1” or “FL2” as desired. That will rewrite the Waveform List.

You might find these support articles of interest:
http://www.motifator.com/index.php/support/view/motif_xf_flash_memory_expansion_modules
http://www.motifator.com/index.php/support/view/flash_board_session

3) See http://www.motifator.com/index.php/forum/viewthread/477804/

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Posted on: October 03, 2020 @ 11:35 AM
just_a_dude
Total Posts:  19
Joined  07-22-2020
status: Regular

Ок. Thank you again! But I still can’t understand:

1. Where are the “links” to Waveforms physically located?
2. The list of Waveforms and “links” are the same thing? list = links?
3. How can duplicates of links appear? You have already written this can happen before.
4. Formatting the flash module will also clear all links to waveforms (to this module) and this Waveform List?

P.S. It’s funny, but maybe Yamaha should have released a utility for Motif that would automatically find garbage (duplicates, invalid or outdated links that lead nowhere) and clean them up. By the way the flash module “optimization” function does not do this?
What is the essence of optimization? Does this work exactly the same as TRIM on a SSD?

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Posted on: October 03, 2020 @ 02:36 PM
5pinDIN
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This thread, in particular Bad_Mister‘s second post, should answer those questions not already addressed:
http://www.motifator.com/index.php/forum/viewthread/460353/

As to question #4, see my reply to your previous post’s question #2.

Since OS version 1.10, Waveforms having duplicate names can be found and removed with an INTEGRATED SAMPLING Job. See page 15 of the XF Supplementary Manual (https://usa.yamaha.com/files/download/other_assets/4/325614/motifxf_v150_en_nf_c0.pdf), Increasing the available memory of the Flash Memory Expansion Module.

Optimization is similar to drive defragmentation.

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Posted on: October 03, 2020 @ 07:24 PM
just_a_dude
Total Posts:  19
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This may look strange, but I not found the answer to my questions (in Bad_Mister post).
“2) After formatting the flash modules, load the sample libraries, with the Load options set to “FL1” or “FL2” as desired. That will rewrite the Waveform List. “ - I’m sorry, but it seems like IF I don’t load any library again after formatting NO Waveform List (or links) will be overwritten, correct?

I didn’t ask you where these links might be stored. It is clear that the files may contain them. I meant where is it stored in the Motif itself? I can’t figure out where this is stored, because even when the library is loaded into USR (SDRAM), the List of waveforms doesn’t disappear by itself after power off/on. This means that the List is not stored in SDRAM. Then where is it?
All this reminds me of the File Allocation Table on hard drive, with the only difference that everything is clear with this Table, but not with the List of waveforms. I don’t know English very well. This is probably why I find it difficult to understand these nuances.

I found this: “This operation will cancel the link status between the Voices and deleted Waveforms, then make a new link between the same Voices and the undeleted Waveforms respectively”.
Does this mean that after formatting the flash module, I have to start INTEGRATED SAMPLING Job and choose what? What happens if I choose “Delete all”? The “Motif” will ask me after selecting “Delete all” where do I want to delete it all (FL1 or FL2)? Or not? And if I choose USR, which waveforms will be deleted in this case? ... Damn, this is messed up.

So if “Delete All” by INTEGRATED SAMPLING Job is INCORRECT, I know only one way to delete unnecessary List of waveforms - is to load the file all.n3.X3A from a backup that did not contain this List. But if there is no such file, the only thing left is formatting flash module and then Factory Reset. It’s no good.

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Posted on: October 04, 2020 @ 05:13 AM
5pinDIN
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just_a_dude - 03 October 2020 07:24 PM

This may look strange, but I not found the answer to my questions (in Bad_Mister post).
“2) After formatting the flash modules, load the sample libraries, with the Load options set to “FL1” or “FL2” as desired. That will rewrite the Waveform List. “ - I’m sorry, but it seems like IF I don’t load any library again after formatting NO Waveform List (or links) will be overwritten, correct?

I didn’t ask you where these links might be stored. It is clear that the files may contain them. I meant where is it stored in the Motif itself? I can’t figure out where this is stored,

The Waveform List isn’t “stored” - it is written to volatile User memory during each boot sequence, based on reading what exists on the flash memory modules (which, of course, are non-volatile). It is rewritten there - added to - when a new sample library is loaded, Waveforms are loaded from a file, etc.

I don’t know specifically when during the boot the List is created. You obviously want to dive more deeply into this topic than any other Motifator member has previously, so you might be interested in the XF’s boot sequence. See page 174 of the XF Service Manual (https://elektrotanya.com/yamaha_motif_xf6_xf7_xf8.pdf/download.html).

 

just_a_dude -

because even when the library is loaded into USR (SDRAM), the List of waveforms doesn’t disappear by itself after power off/on. This means that the List is not stored in SDRAM. Then where is it?

The Waveform List does “disappear” when power is cycled, but is repopulated at boot. Since USR Waveforms are in volatile memory, they don’t survive power cycling, and are not found in the List after a new boot.

If the Waveform List is viewed via Utility mode [F6]Flash, only the FL1 and FL2 contents of the List can be seen. However, if you edit an Element of a Normal Voice and select the [F1]Oscillator tab, pressing [CATEGORY SEARCH] will reveal the entire List, with the USR Waveforms at the top. If the XF is rebooted the USR Waveforms will be gone, and the List won’t include them.

 

just_a_dude -

All this reminds me of the File Allocation Table on hard drive, with the only difference that everything is clear with this Table, but not with the List of waveforms. I don’t know English very well. This is probably why I find it difficult to understand these nuances.

The difference being that the FAT is non-volatile, while the Waveform List is in volatile memory.

 

just_a_dude -

I found this: “This operation will cancel the link status between the Voices and deleted Waveforms, then make a new link between the same Voices and the undeleted Waveforms respectively”.
Does this mean that after formatting the flash module, I have to start INTEGRATED SAMPLING Job and choose what? What happens if I choose “Delete all”? The “Motif” will ask me after selecting “Delete all” where do I want to delete it all (FL1 or FL2)? Or not? And if I choose USR, which waveforms will be deleted in this case? ... Damn, this is messed up.

So if “Delete All” by INTEGRATED SAMPLING Job is INCORRECT, I know only one way to delete unnecessary List of waveforms - is to load the file all.n3.X3A from a backup that did not contain this List. But if there is no such file, the only thing left is formatting flash module and then Factory Reset. It’s no good.

You are over-complicating this topic. The XF takes care of the Waveform List without user intervention. If Load options for FL1 and FL2 are chosen correctly, no duplication of Waveforms will be created, and the the XF will perform as expected.

Given the language issue along with the technical nature of this discussion, I hope the above clarifies things for you. Otherwise, I suggest that you back up any User data that you value, and experiment until the XF’s operation becomes clearer - much of what I know was learned that way.

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Posted on: October 04, 2020 @ 01:07 PM
just_a_dude
Total Posts:  19
Joined  07-22-2020
status: Regular

I think you are wrong based on the context and terminology. The screenshot perfectly clarifies what is happening. I can only apologize for my stupidity and forgetfulness, because I once saw this picture, but I safely forgot it. Samples = waveforms. The List of waveforms = FALSE for our context. List of voices = TRUE. When we load a sound library, voices that don’t contain any samples are put in flash ROM, but those that have samples are loaded in TWO different memory areas. If the library is small and the USR value is selected, the samples are placed into SDRAM. Therefore, the loaded List of voices never disappears until it is overwritten, even if the power will be turned off. However, voices that have samples after a power off will sound wrong or not sound at all because SDRAM has been cleared. Theoretically, we can probably clear voices that had samples, because the pointers will become incorrect. The system may detect “bad links” and remove these voices from the List. However, voices that didn’t have samples can’t be cleared. This can only be done by overwriting the data from the backup or by Factory Reset.
These are the conclusions I made.

Image Attachments
Internal_memory.JPG
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Posted on: October 04, 2020 @ 02:14 PM
5pinDIN
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just_a_dude - 04 October 2020 01:07 PM

I think you are wrong based on the context and terminology. The screenshot perfectly clarifies what is happening. I can only apologize for my stupidity and forgetfulness, because I once saw this picture, but I safely forgot it. Samples = waveforms. The List of waveforms = FALSE for our context. List of voices = TRUE. When we load a sound library, voices that don’t contain any samples are put in flash ROM, but those that have samples are loaded in TWO different memory areas. If the library is small and the USR value is selected, the samples are placed into SDRAM. Therefore, the loaded List of voices never disappears until it is overwritten, even if the power will be turned off. However, voices that have samples after a power off will sound wrong or not sound at all because SDRAM has been cleared. Theoretically, we can probably clear voices that had samples, because the pointers will become incorrect. The system may detect “bad links” and remove these voices from the List. However, voices that didn’t have samples can’t be cleared. This can only be done by overwriting the data from the backup or by Factory Reset.
These are the conclusions I made.

The Memory Structure diagram proves nothing in regard to your topic.

Samples are not the same as Waveforms. You can search for the explanation of that fact, or continue to misunderstand the important distinction.

It’s obvious that you either haven’t read or comprehended information in the articles I’ve provided links to.

As I’ve said before in this forum, language isn’t the only barrier to understanding. I’m done with this topic, and with ever again responding to you. I’ll stop there, before I get into the realm of an “ad hominem” attack.

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Posted on: October 04, 2020 @ 03:50 PM
just_a_dude
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Joined  07-22-2020
status: Regular

I’m sorry that my thoughts are making you nervous. You answered questions 1 and 3 (my first post), for which I am very grateful. I didn’t say that samples and waveforms are the same thing. Only in this context. The diagram shows that in this case, Yamaha understands these two terms as unambiguous. In addition, this diagram coincides with the practical behavior of the synthesizer, confirms the experience. If the synthesizer changed the List of voices loaded (directly) to USR in power-off cycles, I would be the first to say that you were right. And it seems to me that the picture clarifies the answer to question 2 a little. It seems to me that in the case of voices that have samples, you can only clear the pointers with the option you suggested using integrated sampling, if at all possible (need to test). When the voices don’t have samples, there’s nothing to clean. The List of voices is in the flash ROM. When a library is loaded directly over the network, it can only be located there. But if you use the Editor, the situation changes.

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Posted on: October 04, 2020 @ 05:29 PM
just_a_dude
Total Posts:  19
Joined  07-22-2020
status: Regular

I looked at the service manual, but I didn’t understand what you mean by that… The BOOTSEQUENCE doesn’t really change anything. Are you talking about the FL1 and FL2 activate or test mode? Are you saying that at this point (activate FLs) the system checks the links and deletes them if they are incorrect? And the List of voices will be changed? Ok. If so… Then it’s work only for flashboards.

In any case.. thank you for your answers.

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