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Viewing topic "Patch Changes midi output data on 5pdin ?"

     
Posted on: August 11, 2020 @ 07:20 PM
oldkeys
Total Posts:  61
Joined  12-05-2010
status: Experienced

At the moment I record all my sessions through 5pin din then 5pd to usb converter.

Is it possible to configure the motif such that it also sends its patch change midi commands and modwheel through 5pin din or is it impossible to send e.g. modwheel data simultaneously with the pitch midi data ?

I dont want to use the four native USB midi ports, but if I have no other choice, are the modwheel and patch change midi sent through any of these ?

I cant find a solution in the manual.

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Posted on: August 11, 2020 @ 07:38 PM
5pinDIN
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oldkeys - 11 August 2020 07:20 PM

[...]
Is it possible to configure the motif such that it also sends its patch change midi commands and modwheel through 5pin din or is it impossible to send e.g. modwheel data simultaneously with the pitch midi data ?
[...]

Program Change messages, controller data, etc., are normally sent via MIDI-Out. If that’s not working, then something is preventing transmission or reception.

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Posted on: August 11, 2020 @ 08:44 PM
oldkeys
Total Posts:  61
Joined  12-05-2010
status: Experienced

I will carefully look at the midi data.
If I send back the data straight to the Motif I recorded, it plays the piece perfectly, as I played it, but it doesnt do patch changes. That is why I think the patch change/program changes and modulations are missing.
There is no way to switch off the patch and modwheel midi to the 5pdin connections. If it is possible, it is probably switched off.

Am I expecting too much or should midi data recorded with modwheels and program changes when played back to the Motif do all the modulations and patch changes ?

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Posted on: August 11, 2020 @ 09:30 PM
5pinDIN
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I presume by “patch changes” you mean Program Changes. The term “patch” has a different meaning for the Motif.

The Motif should respond to commands that were properly recorded and sent back to it. What mode was the Motif in? What’s recording the data? Is there any playback by the Motif sequencer involved?

Details are important. For example, depending on exactly what you’re doing, the MIDI Filter settings might be a factor. See page 270 of the XS Owner’s Manual. Also, similar filtering might be done by external gear or programs.

If you can precisely describe your workflow, it should be possible to determine what’s happening.

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Posted on: August 12, 2020 @ 01:12 AM
oldkeys
Total Posts:  61
Joined  12-05-2010
status: Experienced

I sorted it out, Motif does everything right; sends the midi data for changes from say “Grand Piano to Wurli (what I call patches) and also the Mod wheel data.

Indispensable.
Thanks for the help.
Good old 5pinDin is still powerful and utterly useful. My Favorite Midi Port

Thanks for the kind help.

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Posted on: August 12, 2020 @ 05:02 PM
oldkeys
Total Posts:  61
Joined  12-05-2010
status: Experienced

I still dont know what the difference between program and Patches are as defined on Motif. To me they are all patches unless programs are the preloaded ROM patches that came with the Motif ?

I can now record all the Program changes in my midi files but none of the PERFORMANCE (is it patches) changes are sent through midi when changed.

Why is it that no Performance change midi data is sent through Midi out ?
Is there a way to enable the Performance midi program change data to be sent to the 5pin din same as what works great in the Voice Mode?

Once I select a Performance mode Patch/Program or whatever the distinction is, then it throws everything out of whack and just sticks to my previous Voice Program/patch selected.

Working through the XS manuals where I found not much on the topic, the only reference I got is that I should be somehow in master mode for this to work. It seems like it is the case but i am not sure.

This is the Motif XF page that helped me the most with my XS.
“https://www.yamahasynth.com/motifxf-category/understanding-master-mode”

Can you confirm that patchchanges can be made to the Performance section ?
I dont understand why this is by defualt off. Makes no sense.

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Posted on: August 12, 2020 @ 08:27 PM
oldkeys
Total Posts:  61
Joined  12-05-2010
status: Experienced

Additional to my previous post: Here I quote how it is supposedly done on the XF. I couldnt find this info in the XS manuals. So far everything XF could be appied to XS:

It says:

===================================Quotation==========================
MOTIF XF Performances can be recalled via the same type of Bank Select messages. But please note: You can use a Performance only when a Performance Memory location is associated with the Master setup. Bank Select commands cannot be used to change MODES. They are used to make program changes within the pre-selected MODE. (Very important).

Bank MSB LSB PC range
Performance 063 64 1-128

To recall an entire Performance you would have to associate the MASTER with PERFORMANCE mode and then send MSB = 063/ LSB = 064 followed by the Program Change number to recall the desired Performance.

====================================================================

So it seems I have to learn to associate a performance with a master setup. This is clunky. Why not just make everything av ailable Voice and Performance without this unfortunate hurdle race just to get to performance mode through midi.

The entire Master mode thing is quite confusing.

The best is to hear from someone is if the XS8 can be configured such that ALL Voice programs/patches and all PERFORMANCE programs/patches can be switched through midi.
I read the manuals till my eyes bleed but there is no clarity. I dont know why Yamaha created this obstacle. Just make all Voices and Performances available to be switched to/from by midi and be done with it.

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Posted on: August 12, 2020 @ 08:51 PM
5pinDIN
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oldkeys - 12 August 2020 05:02 PM

I still dont know what the difference between program and Patches are as defined on Motif. To me they are all patches unless programs are the preloaded ROM patches that came with the Motif ?

Programs are Voices (Preset or User), Performances (User) - even Song/Pattern Mixings or Masters. Other synths may call them “patches”, but that’s not what Yamaha calls them. With a Motif the term “patch” refers to how phrases are assigned in a Pattern. See page 212 of the XS Owner’s Manual.

 

oldkeys -

I can now record all the Program changes in my midi files but none of the PERFORMANCE (is it patches) changes are sent through midi when changed.

Why is it that no Performance change midi data is sent through Midi out ?
Is there a way to enable the Performance midi program change data to be sent to the 5pin din same as what works great in the Voice Mode?

Once I select a Performance mode Patch/Program or whatever the distinction is, then it throws everything out of whack and just sticks to my previous Voice Program/patch selected.

Selecting a Performance on the XS should send the related MSB/LSB/PC Bank Select and Program Change messages. If not, perhaps they’re disabled. From Utility mode…
Press [F5](Control) > [SF2](MIDI)
Make sure Bank Select and Program Change are “on”.
However, if they weren’t on, Voice mode should also be affected.

Note that LSBs for Performances are different than those for other User Banks. See the Bank Select table in the Data List, as I previously posted:
http://www.motifator.com/index.php/forum/viewthread/481919/

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Posted on: August 12, 2020 @ 09:14 PM
5pinDIN
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oldkeys - 12 August 2020 08:27 PM

Additional to my previous post: Here I quote how it is supposedly done on the XF. I couldnt find this info in the XS manuals. So far everything XF could be appied to XS:

It says:

===================================Quotation==========================
MOTIF XF Performances can be recalled via the same type of Bank Select messages. But please note: You can use a Performance only when a Performance Memory location is associated with the Master setup. Bank Select commands cannot be used to change MODES. They are used to make program changes within the pre-selected MODE. (Very important).

Bank MSB LSB PC range
Performance 063 64 1-128

To recall an entire Performance you would have to associate the MASTER with PERFORMANCE mode and then send MSB = 063/ LSB = 064 followed by the Program Change number to recall the desired Performance.

====================================================================

So it seems I have to learn to associate a performance with a master setup. This is clunky. Why not just make everything av ailable Voice and Performance without this unfortunate hurdle race just to get to performance mode through midi.

The entire Master mode thing is quite confusing.

The best is to hear from someone is if the XS8 can be configured such that ALL Voice programs/patches and all PERFORMANCE programs/patches can be switched through midi.
I read the manuals till my eyes bleed but there is no clarity. I dont know why Yamaha created this obstacle. Just make all Voices and Performances available to be switched to/from by midi and be done with it.

Master mode isn’t required, and modes can be selected via MIDI, using SysEx Parameter Change messages. Please refer to the information under the Bank Select table in the XS Data List. It says “The Master number and the Performance/Song/Pattern/Voice mode can be changed only via the Parameter Change.”

To select the Mode on an XS set as device #1, send:
F0 43 10 7F 03 0A 00 01 0n F7
where…
n=0 Voice mode
n=1 Performance mode
n=2 Pattern mode
n=3 Song mode
n=4 Master mode

For details…
See (3-5-3-1) NATIVE PARAMETER CHANGE, MODE CHANGE on page 54 of the XS Data List
--- and ---
MIDI PARAMETER CHANGE TABLE (Mode Change) on page 58.

The Mode Change message is sent first, then the MSB/LSB/PC.

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Posted on: August 12, 2020 @ 10:57 PM
oldkeys
Total Posts:  61
Joined  12-05-2010
status: Experienced

That sure works. Dont know why I keep missing things in the XS8 manual.
That is clear as day If I saw that it would be solved.

I can clearly see now what the problem is though.
Since the Motif XS8 Doesnt send ‘F0 43 10 7F 03 0A 00 01 01 F7 ‘ through midi when you switch to performance mode all the performance mode patch changes will be viewed by external software as Voice mode. It is impossible for software to replay the Midi and observe a change from Voice to Performance mode when the patches change to performance.
The Motif’s Midi data as sent and Midi data needed to receive for the same patches are not injective and therefore surjective.

In order to have an injective midi send receive the external softtware have tio add.

#Switch To Voice Mode
‘F0 43 10 7F 03 0A 00 01 00 F7 ‘
#Switch To Performance Mode
‘F0 43 10 7F 03 0A 00 01 01 F7 ‘

as needed and cannot be just played back.
External software needs to look for the “20 40” in the raw midi data sent

B0 00 3F
20 40
C0 03

and then add the ‘F0 43 10 7F 03 0A 00 01 01 F7 ‘ before the first occurrence.

Alternatively to get back to Voice, the software need to check for “20 00” in the same position and then go and insert F0 43 10 7F 03 0A 00 01 00 F7 ‘ before the first occurrence.

The midi playback not being injective is a bit of an oversight by Yamaha. It requires the power user to write YET another driver to detect voice<=>Performance button changes.
If Yamaha just sent the string ‘F0 43 10 7F 03 0A 00 01 01 F7’ when Performance was pressed and ‘F0 43 10 7F 03 0A 00 01 00 F7’ when voice is pressed then the user would not need to program preemptive code to make sure captured code will play back identically.

This is clearly something they forgot to add in the midi output. They just omtited those two buttons.

Ok, then… I will then have tio write a driver to remedy this oversight, So I can play back midi data that will select patches in Voice or Performance and not just stay where it was selected manually.

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Posted on: August 13, 2020 @ 01:37 PM
5pinDIN
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oldkeys - 12 August 2020 10:57 PM

[...]If Yamaha just sent the string ‘F0 43 10 7F 03 0A 00 01 01 F7’ when Performance was pressed and ‘F0 43 10 7F 03 0A 00 01 00 F7’ when voice is pressed then the user would not need to program preemptive code to make sure captured code will play back identically.

This is clearly something they forgot to add in the midi output. They just omtited those two buttons.

Not forgotten/omitted, just not where you’d prefer to find them.

USB Port 4 is for communicating with the Editor. It’s there that the Mode Change messages are found when switching to Performance from Voice, and back.

F0 43 10 7F 0B 0A 00 01 01 F7 is sent by the XS via Port 4 when [PERFORM] is pressed while in Voice mode.

F0 43 10 7F 0B 0A 00 01 00 F7 is sent by the XS via Port 4 when [VOICE] is pressed while in Performance mode.

Note that the fifth byte (model ID), normally ”03” for the XS, is ”0B” for the XS Editor. The messages are otherwise what you’re looking for, although they’re not output via 5-pin DIN. The XS recognizes the messages if “0B” is changed to “03”.

By the way, if you send F0 43 10 7F 03 41 01 41 4C F7 to the XS on Port 1, you’ll receive F0 43 10 7F 0B 41 01 41 4C F7 back from the XS via Port 4.
EDIT: Just to avoid any possible confusion…
The above SysEx sets Element 2 Coarse Tune to +12. It was taken from an older post of mine, and is an example of a Port 4 response (for the Editor). Otherwise, it has nothing to do with switching modes.)

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Posted on: August 15, 2020 @ 08:38 PM
oldkeys
Total Posts:  61
Joined  12-05-2010
status: Experienced

Thank you for the kind answer.
I cannot see the reason why they didnt include the Performance change data in the 5PinDin interface. Makes no sense. Must have been a design issue co-joining new circuitry with existing circuitry and the resultant merging issues. Therefore they left it out.

USB is way easier handling merging of designs as the bus is more forgiving than the legacy midi bus.

Anyway lets agree to disagree. I know what the problem is now and it is worth gold and you helped me a ton.
To be able to control My XS8 and therefore the Rack version without a computer, I will have to program an embedded system that works with the USB midi ports. It is valuable info you gave me and the implementation will be fast.

I absolutely refuse to use any system live that involves a computer/laptop/rackserver. That is looking for big trouble.

Embedded OTOH, is fine and I am an ace Linux programmer, and Linux embedded is as stable as a brick.

Thanks a lot for your help it is really appreciated.

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Posted on: August 16, 2020 @ 02:12 PM
5pinDIN
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oldkeys - 15 August 2020 08:38 PM

Thank you for the kind answer.
I cannot see the reason why they didnt include the Performance change data in the 5PinDin interface. Makes no sense. Must have been a design issue co-joining new circuitry with existing circuitry and the resultant merging issues. Therefore they left it out.

USB is way easier handling merging of designs as the bus is more forgiving than the legacy midi bus.

There may be another explanation. Multiple ports available with USB allows different data streams to coexist - the Motif can communicate bidirectionally with the Editor, keeping the two in sync via Port 4, while not affecting the tone generator operation on Port 1. If Mode Change messages were sent via 5-pin DIN, and a MIDI feedback loop existed, the Motif might be prone to lock up.

 

oldkeys -

Anyway lets agree to disagree. I know what the problem is now and it is worth gold and you helped me a ton.
To be able to control My XS8 and therefore the Rack version without a computer, I will have to program an embedded system that works with the USB midi ports. It is valuable info you gave me and the implementation will be fast.

I absolutely refuse to use any system live that involves a computer/laptop/rackserver. That is looking for big trouble.

Embedded OTOH, is fine and I am an ace Linux programmer, and Linux embedded is as stable as a brick.

Proficiency with Linux is a valuable skill.

 

oldkeys -

Thanks a lot for your help it is really appreciated.

You’re welcome - I’m glad I was able to help you towards your goal.

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Posted on: August 25, 2020 @ 07:04 PM
oldkeys
Total Posts:  61
Joined  12-05-2010
status: Experienced

5PinDin

Thanks for all the help.
In the mean time I managed to moove the performance patches over to a User in voice so now my programs work fine. It seems like I will just have to ignore the performance section as it is useless for me due to the change not forwarded through 5pdin.

Dont know what your keyboard interests are, but i finished a working version of a program for my Akai Fire Studio controller to record midi tracks and associate to buttons and play back to the XS8. without cumbersome daws and mouse garbage.

Works like a dream for my purposes.
I will post a video of the current operation.
I just have to reverse engineer the operation instructions for the AKAI controllers LCD panel and then i will be finished.

Since you helped me a lot and you would find it useful for your purposes i am willing to let you have a copy of the program.
Just let me know after you saw the video.
Will be a while though before I post the video as I want to also finish the embedded controller that can allow me to use the USB midi with my program so I dont have to work with a computer anymore which is orders more rugged than a pc and crucial for live use. For the non-embedded pc-version, it is for Linux unfortunately. No windows. I dont program for windows anymore. The embedded version is just a box that works and makes the Akai talk to the XS8 or XF and also keeps the midi recording/playback archive.

Anyway thanks for the help.

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Posted on: August 27, 2020 @ 03:56 AM
5pinDIN
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I’m always happy to help when I can. I’m glad you’re making progress on your project.

Although I probably should enter the Linux world, currently my platform is Windows, which I do program for on occasion.

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