RobinVT - 20 January 2021 09:19 AM

Try here:


https://yamahasynth.com

Luca already posted in the forum there (twice), about a week ago. Not very diplomatically, IMO. Got a few responses, although none from Yamaha representatives, but at least the threads weren’t deleted. Of course, they’re buried somewhat in the queue by now.

It may be a hopeless cause. Due to this issue (and some others), I’ll probably never buy another Yamaha product.

I submitted a request about the driver for the firewire and would like to pass the answer I got from Yamaha:

Hello Robert,

Yes, I have seen this from users. The fact is that Mac OS is no longer supporting the protocol and there is no feasible way to implement the driver on a 64-bit system. I’m curious: It seems like we are getting 100% of the blame for this. Has anyone complained to Apple about their dropping support for IEEE1394?

Honestly, for those wishing to use firewire the solution is to keep an older system that still has the internal infrastructure. 

We certainly are aware of the frustration. But this is the nature of technology: We can’t really continue to develop solutions for products using technology that is outdated. The unhappy users are unhappy that IEEE1394 has been effectively obsoleted by not just us, but the entire industry. I challenge people to find a modern computer that has a S400 connector on it. Furthermore, we did our best to support firewire on the Mac up to 10.4. The entire core system changed with Catalina and made further development impossible without a complete overhaul of the driver itself. So to answer your final question: Yes, on a number of levels it is that hard to upgrade the driver. The OS infrastructure is gone, firewire hardware has been discontinued and the development resources we have must be tasked to develop new products that are ultimately better solutions. 

Lastly, we have no affiliation with the old Motifator site and haven’t for nearly a decade. YamahaSynth.com is our official site.

I realize that this may not be the answer you want to hear, but it’s the only answer I can offer.

Thanks,

Blake

I guess the best thing to do is to keep a separate computer and software just for the Motif XF.  Also, might want to keep some spare parts for that computer too.
Too bad we live in a throw away world, but this is what digital has become.

RobinVT - 21 January 2021 02:25 PM

I submitted a request about the driver for the firewire and would like to pass the answer I got from Yamaha:

Hello Robert,

Yes, I have seen this from users. The fact is that Mac OS is no longer supporting the protocol and there is no feasible way to implement the driver on a 64-bit system. I’m curious: It seems like we are getting 100% of the blame for this. Has anyone complained to Apple about their dropping support for IEEE1394?

Honestly, for those wishing to use firewire the solution is to keep an older system that still has the internal infrastructure. 

We certainly are aware of the frustration. But this is the nature of technology: We can’t really continue to develop solutions for products using technology that is outdated. The unhappy users are unhappy that IEEE1394 has been effectively obsoleted by not just us, but the entire industry. I challenge people to find a modern computer that has a S400 connector on it. Furthermore, we did our best to support firewire on the Mac up to 10.4. The entire core system changed with Catalina and made further development impossible without a complete overhaul of the driver itself. So to answer your final question: Yes, on a number of levels it is that hard to upgrade the driver. The OS infrastructure is gone, firewire hardware has been discontinued and the development resources we have must be tasked to develop new products that are ultimately better solutions. 

Lastly, we have no affiliation with the old Motifator site and haven’t for nearly a decade. YamahaSynth.com is our official site.

I realize that this may not be the answer you want to hear, but it’s the only answer I can offer.

Thanks,

Blake


I guess the best thing to do is to keep a separate computer and software just for the Motif XF.  Also, might want to keep some spare parts for that computer too.
Too bad we live in a throw away world, but this is what digital has become.

Thanks for posting the reply from Blake (Blake Angelos, I presume, a Yamaha Product Specialist).

Before I get deeper into this, I’d like to make it clear that the Mac/Catalina issue doesn’t affect me, other than my sympathy for those who are affected. My XF is connected to a PC running Windows XP Pro, which serves my needs. However, I’m a staunch supporter of ecologically sound actions, and the attitude by Yamaha is completely contrary to that. For them, it seems to be all about the bottom line.

In my opinion, Blake’s reply is somewhat disingenuous. While some computer hardware/software may be “obsoleted” within just 2-5 years, the same should not be true for synths. They’re musical instruments, and fully capable of making music for many decades. In fact, a selling point for the XF was that with the optional flash memory modules, even if the sounds in ROM became dated, you could always get new sounds - it was “future-proofed”.

Sure, Apple dropped support for FireWire on the newer machines, although there are still adapters that allow conversion of newer ports to FW. The XF was still being sold up to about four years ago, and it should be supported for a significant number of years beyond that. But apparently Yamaha doesn’t consider the good will that developing a 64-bit Catalina-compatible FW driver would entail to be worth the expense to them. I suppose the bean counters at Yamaha have determined that a bunch of pissed-off XF owners will result in less loss to the company than driver development.

I’ll stop here…

How is your PC connected to the XF?  I have a Dell PC with Windows XP.  What do I need to connect my XF to it?
Maybe I can just use that?

RobinVT - 22 January 2021 03:08 PM

How is your PC connected to the XF?  I have a Dell PC with Windows XP.  What do I need to connect my XF to it?
Maybe I can just use that?

My PC is connected to the XF via 5-pin DIN, USB, Ethernet, and FW. While there’s certainly some overlap of functions among those connections, each might serve a distinct purpose under some circumstances.

I presume that you’re mostly interested in FW. The PC will, of course, need to have an IEEE1394(FW) port. In my case a Sound Blaster Audigy2 sound card has a FW port, and it fills the need. If your PC doesn’t already have a FW port, then getting one with a TI (Texas Instruments) chipset is usually suggested.

In addition, you’d need to install the FW Driver for Windows. That can be downloaded from…
https://usa.yamaha.com/support/updates/index.html?c=music_production&k=Motif+XF
...as well as Editor, USB-MIDI Driver, etc, for Windows.

A drawback to using an older OS (Windows or Mac) is, of course, that you might not be able to run a recent DAW, etc., of your choice. You might want to research that aspect before otherwise setting up the PC.

Alternatively, Macs having Intel processors (predating the Apple M1 processor) often can be set up to dual-boot and run an older OS than Catalina.

Thanks 5pinDin.  I will look into this.  Your knowledge of this is extremely appreciated!

RobinVT - 23 January 2021 12:09 PM

Thanks 5pinDin.  I will look into this.  Your knowledge of this is extremely appreciated!

Thanks, glad to help. If you have further questions concerning setting up your PC, just ask.

@RobinVT
There’s an area at Sweetwater called Creation Station that might have some advice on this matter.
They build and sell computers just for music production.
The tech advancements of late, with most everything, likely will slow things down regarding a DAW, but they may know of a few that work well enough.

@5pinDIn
Thanks again for your kind words about this Firewire issue.
@Yamaha
There are a lot of customers not just a few that were waiting patiently for your ‘compatibility’ page to update to include them. I for one.
Yamaha integrity is gone, gone away for good, for some of us. The products Yamaha can make will no longer get the second look.
The silence from Yamaha has been deafening. I am surprised at the alleged wording from Blake on the topic as well. Seems out of character for his choice of words from the past.

*never again will I become interested in some new technology from Yamaha. In the background I will always hear “firewire should have been something else like thunderbolt” and these words, “short-lived, too expensive over hyped over processed.”
And I will not forget the investment time I did not receive from the three FW16e boards I purchased for my three XF’s. (at $275 each)

I understand this site is likely not on Yamaha’s radar anymore. That’s their loss. I’m still here because the Motif XF serves me well, and this is the motif community. As the DAW integration provided by the FW16E does not extended beyond Mac OS 10.14 (Mojave), I am cautious about allocating too much dependency on workflows involving the FW16E. Perhaps this collective voiced frustration dampens Yamaha flagship production keyboard sales. It’s a shame, as I value the notion of the DAW-integrated quality production keyboard. I can develop a “split” DAW workflow to accommodate a driver stuck at 10.14; but eventually that may be too cumbersome.

I suspect the reason FW16E is not supported beyond Mac OS 10.14 is to promote sales of Montage. Regardless of the reason, this lack of Motif XF software support is negative forum “press”.

From RME’s site, it seems that at least one of their FireWire interfaces is supported on Mac OS 11 and Apple M1. (As of Nov 2020.) If that’s true, in my perspective, it weakens the “it’s impossible” argument.

Thanks all for keeping motifator a treasure to Motif users.

This response is NOT directed to those who are prepared to sacrifice life and limb to keep their DAWs happy, but rather to those that have had enough and just want to produce music.

Yea, I have the FW16E also.  There have been a couple of projects where I had to use it with Cubase and Audacity. 

One of the hats I wear , when not wearing my musician hats is software engineer, computer scientist (of sorts).  Here’s my 2 cents on the Apple/Yamaha support issue.  The best thing you could do is remove the computer from your music production as much as possible. I’m saying this because computers/software are my day job LOL.  Software changes, browser changes, patches, updates, version incompatibilities, security flaws, dongles, subscription fees, etc will F#ck your music setup on a regular basis if your try to keep everything current.  You’re constantly fighting a losing battle as long as the computer is the center of your music production.  The computer as a center piece is not sustainable.  You will ultimately have to buy new gear just to satisfy the updates, patches, and new OS release schedules forced down your throat by the vendors.  And the new gear normally does not have all of the features of the old gear LOL.

I keep old macs around and in pristine shape for when I do have to interface with the computer from my Motif XF/Mox/MM8,QY100.
I get new(old) macs from https://www.macofalltrades.com
when the hardware fails.  I’ve got a version of Mac OSX 10.7, 10.6, and 10.5 on disk, so I can downgrade any mac I buy.  But that said, I almost never use the computer for music production these days (And I’m doing a lot of Music Production these days)

I’ve got all my Synths tied to a Motu 8x8 Midi Patchbay, I run everything into 16 channel Yamaha Mixer, and connect the Mixer to a pair of Tascam Porta Studios.  Amazingly enough I’m able to get a $hit load of audio mastered with 32 tracks using:

https://tascam.com/us/product/dp-24sd/top

Keeping it real, If you can’t get it done with 32 tracks and the art of the Bounce, then maybe you should turn the whole shebang over to professionals :-( I do full blown mixing and mastering on the Porta Studio all the time.  Over the last couple of years I’ve produced masters for all kinds of music situations and 2 very large projects.  I only use the computer to generate digital scores, to upload music to google drive, Youtube, convert AIFF/Wav to Mp3, or to email files. 

All my sequencing is done on my Motif/Mox/MM8/QY100 midi network I get a few hundred polyphony and tie the sequencers together for larger projects.  Many times I do the whole mix down on the Motif and just transfer the stereo Wav to the Portastudio for some minor mastering processes.  If I have to mix acoustic instruments, vocals, or analog synths, I transfer all the audio tracks from my Motif to the Tascam and do the mixing and mastering there.

No Computer, No Daw, None of those update, dongle, subscription, version mismatch blues or heartaches.  Just good ole fashion solid music production.

Yes, there are exceptions where I’m forced to use Audacity or Cubase, but those times are rare.

Its so much more productive (in the long run) Motif + Mixer + Porta Studio, or Motif + Portastudio DONE!  Look Ma, No DAW!

The Motif is a full blown Music Production Synthesizer in its own right.  Using Motif’s ISS you could integrate Midi Tracks and Audio Tracks in the same sequence and mix the whole thing down to a stereo wav DONE! (Been there, Done That) You could run mic’ed acoustic instruments, and vocals into a mixer, then run the mixer into audio-in on the Motif and use ISS to mix the audio with the midi and mix the whole thing right to stereo wav on the Motif.  Motif has 5 band EQ, Compressor, Limiter, all the FX you could practically use. I’ll put my Motif/Mox up against Any set of plugins any day of the week (with absolutely no fear).  I trust my Motif.

So my recommendation is to minimize the computer’s use in your music production.  Get a standalone recorder like the Tascam DP 24/32 or the Zoom 24 and be done with it.  To interface with those devices all you need are 1/4 inch or 1/8 cables LOL.  And because those devices have Aux Send/Return you can add any additional hardware devices or (VSTs if you just have to ).  These units last decades and don’t need any care or feeding,upgrading etc.

Yamaha will have you buying a new instrument every year , and Apple will have you buying a new computer every year if you let them get away with.  But I know some you like the rubber and whips and enjoy that kind of abuse :-)

But for the rest of you get these GP (General Purpose) computers out of your music production. Go with dedicated devices (hardware only) setups.  and take control of your music back.

Interesting thread, with a lot of ‘fair points’ from all sides (except Blake Angelos’ frankly - hi Blake, my old friend. At least Motifator keeps the faith with your older products and customers!)

One workaround of sorts for those wanting to improve on simply taking analog audio direct out of the XF for further/DAW processing, is simply to record an individual track’s audio onto a USB as a wave file. It’s not an exactly pleasing experience to execute (with numerous stages in order to get exactly what you want recorded) but it works and you’ll have clean files to load and process down the line.

MM

When all is said and done those working in a DAW ultimately produce a stereo wav/aiff file.

For Motif owners, one workflow is to get your audio into the DAW, use DAW plugins process that audio and ultimately produce a stereo wav/aiff file.

but it could also just as easily go the other way.

Use the computer as a external effects processor.  That is route your audio track using regular audio out, or usb audio out into the DAW plugin, and route the DAW plugin back into the Motif for recording in the Integrated Sampling Sequencer where you can do all the mixing and master and produce a stereo wav file.

Point is, Cubase is just a sequencer that can record audio and has access to FX.  The Motif is a sequencer that can record audio and has FX.  If a Motif owner needs some FX that are in Cubase (or some other DAW) simply route the track that needs to be processed to the DAW and route the DAW output back into Motif for recording, mixing and mastering.

Instead of focusing on how to get your 16 tracks of Audio into a DAW for Plugin processing, it could go the other way. Whats the easiest way to use the DAW Plugin for mixing and mastering on the Motif?

For example, if there were a hardware effects unit that you wanted to use with the Motif, you would just send the Audio track(s) out of the Motif into the external effects unit, and then return the audio signal into ISS on the Motif for mixing and mastering.

PLugins in a DAW can be treated just like external effects units.

One approach is to look at the Motif as where you will ultimately produce the stereo Wav/AIFF file.  And then the goal becomes how do you use DAW Plugins while doing the mixing and the mastering on the Motif?

In most cases I use my Motif as the center of my mixing and mastering.  There have been a few times where I’ve integrated a DAW plugin with the MOtif’s Mix and Mastering.  e.g I needed a special convolution reverb from Steinberg’s Grand Piano 3 on one of my Motif’s tracks.  I ran that track’s audio into the VST and then ran the VST’s audio out in to the Motif’s Audio in and recorded it to an Audio Track in Motif’s ISS, and proceeded to do my mixing and mastering right on the Motif.

In a great many instances DAW Plugins are only applied to a few of the tracks anyway.  Its relatively straight forward to apply that DAW plugin processing to tracks on the Motif directly by using a basic Send/Return technique.  So the question becomes not how do you get the Motif’s Audio into the DAW, but rather how do you get the DAW’s Plugins to work with Audio on the Motif. 

The Motif has all the basic mixing and mastering tools to produce the final stereo WAV file, and that stereo wav file can be easily exported if further processing is needed, or the send/return mechanism can be done directly on the Motif so that the stereo WAV produced is the final version.

For Motif owners that don’t want to use a DAW centered approach, there is a Motif centered approach that can be used while taking advantage of DAW plugins!  You can either send Motif Audio into the DAW and return audio from the DAW for recording in the Motif, or send Motif Midi into the DAW for processing and return Audio to the Motif for recording.

Originally the Motif was designed and one stop and shop, all-in-one solution.  Its a good design, and it works.

MrMotif - 22 June 2021 09:21 PM

...
One workaround of sorts for those wanting to improve on simply taking analog audio direct out of the XF for further/DAW processing, is simply to record an individual track’s audio onto a USB as a wave file. It’s not an exactly pleasing experience to execute (with numerous stages in order to get exactly what you want recorded) but it works and you’ll have clean files to load and process down the line.

MM

I had not thought about this. For a couple of reasons, this approach seems compelling. Thanks.