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Viewing topic "MOTIF XF FW-Driver for OS X Catalina"

     
Posted on: April 21, 2020 @ 09:44 AM
mivey4
Total Posts:  79
Joined  12-02-2011
status: Experienced

Hey I’m running Catalina and the FW driver won’t work so the OS doesn’t see nor communicate with my XF8. I checked out the Compatibility report here: https://download.yamaha.com/files/tcm:39-1145524?_ga=2.189339499.1375882750.1572989865-2074624929.1572989865 and it appears as though the Firewire driver works on Windows but the post seems to suggest that the report was only last updated since Dec. 2019

What’s going on with Yamaha/Steinberg????

I’ve got a lot of material that I’ve composed using my XF8 and the VST extension that I can’t even use now unless I go back and assign some other VST instruments. That suckS!

The report says the driver is still in testing for Mac’s. Does anyone know how long that status has been going on? I mean unless the report for the testing status occurred more recently then the suggestive 5+ months back, that is a long time.

Guess I’m dead in the water right now for using my XF8 for much of anything from a DAW production standpoint. Makes a nice useless desktop if I place a board and cover over I suppose. :-(

Anybody?

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Posted on: April 21, 2020 @ 08:47 PM
philwoodmusic
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Total Posts:  1040
Joined  07-01-2013
status: Guru

You need to look at it the other way around really.

I’m sure it must seem that Yamaha are at fault here, but Apple are at fault and then I’m sorry to say that it’s you after that. (and I mean that in the nicest possible way).

Firstly, Apple keep making operating systems yearly, and that’s no good for anybody but Apple.  It always used to be every two years, and that was a much better arrangement. Apple computers lasted longer in terms of compatibility and people made music with less worry about the future.

Secondly, you upgraded to the latest version, expecting things to work (a fair expectation) but that’s never the case with music making software.  It’s not just that driver, there’s loads of software that just hasn’t caught up, and it’s the same year after year.  Developers of music making software always have to play catch up with Apple.

The only way to win is to maintain a build of Mac OS which is slightly older, perhaps one or two years back, where everything still works and you can make music without worrying about updating for a while.  You can do that by having a dedicated music making Mac, or if you’ve got just the one Mac, partitioning the drive on it.

Install the latest OS on one partition and an older OS for music making on the other partition, then you can easily boot between the two, and it feels just like having two Macs. You can easily transfer files between the two operating systems and you get the best of both worlds, and none of those feelings of dread about updates.

With the current Covid-19 pandemic situation, it’s also likely that there will be a further delay to Catalina compatibility, although I doubt it will stop Apple banging another OS out at the end of the year.

Apple operating systems are free these days with no disc, packaging and distribution to think about. They used to be around £90 GBP $110 on disc each time, then discs got cheaper around Snow Leopard (2009) so it’s a bunch of mixed blessings from Apple.

I’m sorry that this post doesn’t fix your issue, but the only thing that matters to me about my music making set up is that works, and my way of working pretty much guarantees that all the time.  I’ll take the Pages, Safari and Mail updates on the partition for the current OS and leave my music making partition as it was.

I hope you can find the peace of mind I get by trying things that way.

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Posted on: April 22, 2020 @ 01:03 AM
mivey4
Total Posts:  79
Joined  12-02-2011
status: Experienced
philwoodmusic - 21 April 2020 08:47 PM

You need to look at it the other way around really.

I’m sure it must seem that Yamaha are at fault here, but Apple are at fault and then I’m sorry to say that it’s you after that. (and I mean that in the nicest possible way).

I totally get that bro’ and you’re right on so many levels on everything you’ve said. I guess it’s just the frustration of it all for me.

I have loved Apple systems since making the switch many years back but they have gotten really ridiculous with the frequent whimsical OS changes and the reality of it always comes down to monetary profits.

But I do believe that Yamaha could have done a better job as well and been more proactive aside from it all on updating the FW driver. Unless I’m mistaken, that driver hasn’t been updated since 2010. That’s 10 years ago. The XF was released in 2010 and I recall only 1 update to the driver and it was relatively around the same year or so.

Thunderbolt was release exactly 1 year later and through several changes of the architecture of that interface to date, Yamaha had done zero updates to the original driver. Yet we had to pay an additional $300 for the Firewire Expansion.

So I think you can see where I’m going with this. For the additional cost of that Expansion board; you’d expect more than 1 driver update. I’d been having intermittent issues with the driver introducing pops and clicks during my recording sessions for years and just had to work around it; as for others I’ve know also.

Bottom line is I’m totally with you on much of what you said including the fact of my seemingly naive thinking that upgrading the OS wasn’t going to present some challenges. Fact is, I should have checked for the compatibility of the Driver before updating but I had to make that difficult decision because the prior OS version had issues that impacted the performance of my productions to the point that the upgrade outweighed the gamble (at the time)

philwoodmusic - 21 April 2020 08:47 PM

I’m sorry that this post doesn’t fix your issue, but the only thing that matters to me about my music making set up is that works, and my way of working pretty much guarantees that all the time.  I’ll take the Pages, Safari and Mail updates on the partition for the current OS.

Yep, I feel the same way. I try to retain the same system for as long as possible but every company seems to be on the same train of rapid progress which sometimes makes upgrades of hardware and software inevitable.

I don’t think the dual boot will be an option for me though. I have a MacBook Pro from 2011 that I use for everything aside from Music Production and it’s running like a champ.

I held on to my last Mac Audio System for years and avoided the consistent prompts to upgrade the OS.

My motto, if it ain’t broke don’t fix it.

But eventually the companies always win. If it’s not Apple with their forceful efforts on pushing things forward at a ridiculous rate; it’s the software companies that don’t allow for backward compatibility of their products.

32-bit worked for years and I’ve had some really nice production results using it but now they’re phasing that out where you’re practically forced into the world of 64-bit; and it will happen.

64-bit better? Perhaps, but forcing consumers without the option of choice. Not really a win/win.

Once I move past my current frustrations and get my system stabilized; I’m riding it for as long as it will run. In reality I’m sure you can agree that won’t be forever; but I’ll be part of the resistance revolution for sure.

I contacted Yamaha support on yesterday regarding this and the tech escalated my concern and they’re supposed to be contacting me for a follow up.

Worse case scenario is I’ll use the USB instead of the Firewire connection. I hate loosing the flexibility of using the Expansion board but whatever.

I’ll post an update once I get it.

Thanks for the honest and respectful feedback

  [ Ignore ]  

Posted on: April 22, 2020 @ 05:09 AM
Mark.V.Cafeo
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Total Posts:  727
Joined  09-20-2011
status: Guru

I agree with all said and the frustration of the findings.

We have three XF’s of different colors and number of keys with FW16e installed at purchase.
I remember some folks in that decade went the different route getting an audio interface for more hardware ports but I couldn’t go extra $$ and had quite the learning curve already with the XF. The integration of the FW16e was very nice and with the XF EDITOR standalone made it wonderful, not to mention convenience of one or two pass recording.

I too contacted Yamaha Support with a response from an unidentified and seemingly questionable individual who stated, “Apple has discontinued their support for Firewire”. I had to stop and think; they developed and were first to offer FIREWIRE and they own the patent rights to this day?
KARMA software also needs to be updated to 64 bit. This may be a while, as was reported by the friendly easy to chat with creator Mr. Kay.  :(
In Apple’s behalf, their approach according to Apple was security based, Finding any evidence to corroborate Mac platform issues is difficult without press releases.
*Security was the reason I first chose Mac Os x.

I have an earlier post or two on this topic here in the Lounge. I was trying level best to governor my Irish-ness from being present, but did not do so well ;) Sorry for not reposting it here due to not being all that proud of it ;) @ Mark.V.Cafeo they will come up.

suggestion:
Universal Audio hardware to replace FW16e audio interface.
From the XF’s unbalanced main outputs into any UA unit produces, at least to my ear, a much improved over all sound not referencing any of their plugins, and with those, well it’s state of the art.
I have less conveniences now, but higher quality.

A Shout out to Phil and 5Pin who know their stuff!
This Forum and all at Keyfax, Please stay well and precautionary.  😷 🙏🩺
𝕀𝕤 𝕚𝕥 𝟚𝟘𝟚𝟙 𝕪𝕖𝕥? 😳 😌

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Posted on: April 22, 2020 @ 05:46 AM
mivey4
Total Posts:  79
Joined  12-02-2011
status: Experienced
Mark.V.Cafeo - 22 April 2020 05:09 AM

I agree with all said and the frustration of the findings.
suggestion:
Universal Audio hardware to replace FW16e audio interface.
From the XF’s unbalanced main outputs into any UA unit produces, at least to my ear, a much improved over all sound not referencing any of their plugins, and with those, well it’s state of the art.
I have less conveniences now, but higher quality.

I hear you loud and clear on that suggestion Mark and couldn’t agree with you more 👍🏽and It’s kinda ironic that you posted your suggestion almost minutes within me re-thinking the approach on that worse case scenario I’d mentioned previously.

So I re-configured my setup this morning a few minutes ago using the USB-MIDI port on the XF8 (since it does “kinda” still work with the XF8-VST plugin) to trigger the sounds on the XF8 and I routed the unbalanced outs to my UA Apollo interface. The convenience of the FW port is gone as you stated but the sound quality is a huge improvement. I love UA stuff!!!

PLUS now I can take advantage of some of my UAD plugins on the direct signal using UNISON.

GREAT suggestion, Thanks!

  [ Ignore ]  

Posted on: April 22, 2020 @ 05:57 AM
Mark.V.Cafeo
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Total Posts:  727
Joined  09-20-2011
status: Guru

Thanks for your kind words and reply. :)

Just for the record, and for others’ purpose;
There are certainly other options for Audio Interfaces, Motu and Focusrite are fine examples
that would do a very good job as well.

  [ Ignore ]  

Posted on: April 22, 2020 @ 06:17 AM
philwoodmusic
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Total Posts:  1040
Joined  07-01-2013
status: Guru

You’re welcome mivey4

Just a little addition…

I do the same but with my XF7’s S/PDIF output into my interface’s S/PDIF input.

You probably already know that the XF’s S/PDIF output is a digital version of what comes out of the main left and right analogue outputs.  So as well as sounding great and true, it’s very convenient for recording to Pro Tools and Logic (in my case) direct to my HD Omni.  By doing that, I get to keep the XF7’s main left and right analogue outputs going to a mixer or direct to monitors / amplification.

So you can still keep it digital between your Motif and Apollo if you like.

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Posted on: August 18, 2020 @ 07:47 AM
motif8mine
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Total Posts:  1742
Joined  10-22-2004
status: Guru

Listen, I’ve have been a cheerleader for Yamaha for years. A great factor and surprising realization in my switching from Pro Tools (win) to Logic and Motif XS8 (mac) was the incessant issues I ran into with software anytime Apple updated the OS. These issues weren’t present on the Mac/YSFW.

The YSFW ran rock solid through each and every update from at least 10.5 to 10.14.6 so, it’s hard to complain. HOWEVER, Yamaha did us a great disservice when it updated the windows driver to 64bit and left us at 32 bit in 2010. When OS 10 initially moved to 64bit, Apple provided backward compatibility and functionality for 32bit drivers and software.

Yamaha opted to keep the driver 32bit, instead of giving us the same courtesy provided windows. Granted, probably the bulk of Cubase, Steinberg users were on that platform. Anyway, Catalina trashed that backwards compatibility. And now, it’s either an option of Catalina and no YSFW or keep YSFW and no further OS updates.

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Posted on: August 18, 2020 @ 08:07 AM
motif8mine
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Total Posts:  1742
Joined  10-22-2004
status: Guru

Sorry, one other thing: firewire support is not the issue here. Not at least with my 2018 MBP. It’s just a matter of wasting money on all the freaking adapters that Apple wants to sell you

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Posted on: August 18, 2020 @ 08:54 AM
Mark.V.Cafeo
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Total Posts:  727
Joined  09-20-2011
status: Guru

I’ll use aggravation as an excuse for leaving abruptly.

Being disappointed with both Yamaha synth productions as well as Apple computer, due to their business practices of late(one being the originator the other being the copycat follower),
I’m looking around for new companies that might be only new to me, but have long histories and possess abilities of ‘caring’ for ‘All’ their customers old and new as one unit, and still having that burning inside to out-do the older much larger companies of whom might have shown complacency.

Out of the realm of above, unfortunately there are only two options for computers, if one doesn’t build one themselves, Apple and Bill Gates. So the jury’s out on that one, though I was always a huge Steve Jobs fan going back to the TV commercial of the T-shirt-clad young lad who said,
“Hi, I’m a Mac.”
So much for my jury.  ;-)

Lastly for today, upon evaluation of sound, I believe AD/DA evolution have come quite a long way from 2010.
I was only using the Fw16e before it’s demise for its functionality of transfer into a computer platform.
But when it came time to run a final Mix bus thru something, that something was of a higher quality and different converters, not the XF’s for the printable.

Well, thanks for listening to my rant, stay safe, and a Hello to both knowledgeable chaps above “motif8mine” and “philwoodmusic”, who have helped very many of us here at Motifator over the years.

off topic maybe, just a little, for some who might have that elusive thing called cashflow or budget,
I have watched this once and going to listen once more, I think so I’ll include it here just as maybe an interesting read.  Burl Audio/converters&preamps;

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Posted on: December 24, 2020 @ 02:48 PM
motif8mine
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Total Posts:  1742
Joined  10-22-2004
status: Guru

excuse my double posting but: Can I encourage anyone intersted in maintaining FW functionality in Catalina and Big Surreaching out to John Melas who prodeced the Motif XS and Motif XF Tools. Hopefully he’d be willing to update the 32 bit Control Panel and prevents the 64 bit YSFW from working

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Posted on: December 30, 2020 @ 04:12 AM
lucatron
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Total Posts:  29
Joined  06-05-2010
status: Regular

Yamaha....SHAME ON YOU!!!
This is called “planned obsolescence” and it’s a crime!
I have to throw in the trash my Motif XF 8 and my N12 Mixer (and my Cubase Pro license) because YOU DON’T WANT UPDATE the fw drivers.
It’s a real shame!
I was your first fan, now I’m your first dectrator, due to your behavior!

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Posted on: December 30, 2020 @ 04:15 AM
lucatron
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Total Posts:  29
Joined  06-05-2010
status: Regular

And if there are here some computer scientists that can do working 64bit YSFW or something like that, I will pay him for the job.

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Posted on: December 30, 2020 @ 05:39 PM
5pinDIN
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Total Posts:  11669
Joined  09-16-2010
status: Legend
lucatron - 30 December 2020 04:12 AM

Yamaha....SHAME ON YOU!!!
This is called “planned obsolescence” and it’s a crime!
I have to throw in the trash my Motif XF 8 and my N12 Mixer (and my Cubase Pro license) because YOU DON’T WANT UPDATE the fw drivers.
It’s a real shame!
I was your first fan, now I’m your first dectrator, due to your behavior!

I understand your frustration. However, if you and other FW16E (and mLAN16E2) owners running a recent Mac OS want to get Yamaha’s attention, Motifator may not be the best place to do so. I would suggest that you try a website owned by Yamaha, where they might have an interest in minimizing bad publicity. Perhaps some potential purchasers of models that came after the Motifs should be made aware of how Yamaha abandons its customers, since there’s just as good a chance that eventually could happen to them as well.

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Posted on: January 13, 2021 @ 12:13 PM
lucatron
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Total Posts:  29
Joined  06-05-2010
status: Regular

Thanks 5pinDIN, you are right!
I don’t know websites owned by Yamaha. Can you please suggest me where to go to help new customers?
The most frustrating thing is that, for those with money to spend, new Montage to replace Motif has Audio on Usb (I’m not very sure) but no way to replace my N12 digital mixer with one that do the some things it does, but with Catalina/Big sur compatibility, not even other brands. Some new expensive Usb 3 mixer can do multitrack recording via usb port, but no on with the “bridge” from the Motif (oops, the Montage) like fw on n12 does.
My configuration is Motif->fw->N12->fw->Mac, with audio and midi signal in both direction and multitrack. No way to do this with other products currently on sale (Yamaha or other brands) working on new apple osx Catalina or Big Sur. I was thinking to update all but it is simply impossible!

Thank you for your understanding.

PS: I have just wrote a post on the forum on their website

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