I am freaking out because I thought I knew how to insert a Volume change into an existing event sequence.

I would use the Record function in Overdub, select the track, select a measure at which I want the Volume to go up 10 points. Then simply Record/Play and hit stop at the measure I want to be back to the original Volume.

Is that NOT how it’s done?  Cause one of two things is happening. Either nothing changes (though I heard it in real time) in the list and upon Playback. Or, a couple times, it seems that doing this changed the Volume of the whole track—and not just from that point forward but it changed the Original Volume. Does Overdub NOT insert an event into the list. Cause when I do essentially the same thing using my physical Mod Wheel, I hear it and it inserts Mod Wheel values. 

Since it’s really just a momentary bump of that one track/instrument, I would gladly do it by manually inserting an event into the list. However, I’m confused by that, too. CC change mode offers Volume but I don’t see any way to designate the numeric volume you want the Volume to be. And then, I would think, I should be able to insert an event a few measures later wherein I enter another numeric Volume, i.e. back to where it is at 01:00 start.

So neither method, real time in Record mode OR manually inserting a command seems to be working for me.

Any thoughts on this?

Manually I just tried:
Edit, scroll down to where you want the first change.
F5/Insert, EventType = ControlChange and then Ctrl No = 007/Volume.
Datawheel to what you want it set to and then hit Enter.
Rinse and repeat where you want the step to change back.

EDIT, maybe I should’ve mentioned that this worked and the volume dropped between the two events. D’OH

When you say datawheel, do you mean the number that is default at 127 at the end of the event?  Cause if so, and that is supposed to represent Volume (1-127) then I believe I did the steps you are describing and not only did nothing change but it appears that the event itself didn’t even “stick”. And I’m sure I hit the Set button. I’ve removed any EXC events (in all tracks) and made sure there were no Volume (or Expression) events floating around.

I will play around some more and come back to this thread, cause I keep hoping it’s something stupid that I’m missing.

Hmm, do you mean the velocity that you see on the same page as the Note-event?
It’s not default to 127 on my board so I have the velocity that I hit the key with there.
This is not the volume though, even though velocity in most cases does affect the volume.
When in that default note listing, I then press Insert, which is defaulting with EventType being Note so I changed that to ControlChange and then you can go up and change the default ‘000 BankMSB’ to ‘007 Volume’.

With DataWheel, I mean the big one with an indent that we use to change values.

I hadn’t saved my test Pattern yesterday, so I just went through it again, it definitely works and lowers the volume between my two inserted events here. Not sure which step it fails on at your end.
Hopefully it’s just something small, best of luck!

Perhaps the following will help to clarify what the problem(s) might be.  It’s based on my experiences with the XF and XS sequencers, but I believe it’s applicable to the MOXF even though its sequencer isn’t identical to the XS/XF ones.

Every Song or Pattern Mixing has certain Parameter settings that are stored in the Mixing “header”. Those stored Parameter values are placed in buffer memory whenever the Song/Pattern is selected. Besides the obvious ones (such as Voices), Volume is one of the settings.

Volume/CC#7, like other Controller settings, is persistent. Once set to a particular value, it remains there until another Volume event changes it. When a Song/Pattern is selected, the Volume for each Track will be set to what’s in the header, and continue at that level as the sequence progresses unless a Volume event is present in the Track. If such a change is encountered, Volume will remain at that new value unless another event changes it again.

That behavior can sometimes cause confusion. For example, let’s say a Track is faded out at the end of a sequence. If the sequence is then rewound to the beginning, that track will play at the last set Volume level, which may be 0(zero) after the previous fade.

Perhaps even worse is that the header is rewritten whenever the [STORE] button is pressed. That means once a Track having a Volume event is played, storing will place the Volume setting in the header at the level last played . The result is that even if another Song/Pattern is selected and then the previous one is returned to, the Track’s Volume will not be set to what it was when the sequence was initially recorded, but at the new level in the header. The problem can be avoided by not playing the track after events are inserted until the sequence is stored. The header will then be written with the original Volume value.

One way to get around these issues when inserting Volume events is to have the last Volume event in a Track be one which returns to the initially desired level, or to insert such an event at the beginning of the track.

The same sort of problem can be experienced with other inserted events, such as Program Change. Let’s say a Track begins with an acoustic piano Part, but after a few bars a PC event changes it to a Rhodes. If the Track is played past the PC event and then stored, the Rhodes will be written to the header. After that, any time the Song/Pattern is selected, the Track will no longer begin with the acoustic piano, but the Rhodes.

The lesson here is to be aware of the current status of Parameters when you STORE. If necessary, insert more events to get things back to the way you want them. It’s also a good reason to SAVE your Song/Pattern to a file before editing, so that if things go awry you can retrieve the original version.

Those are good tips. It appears my keyboard has succumbed to high humidity down here where I live, and it’s lived for over 5 years. So some of my issues were possibly a result of that. But I’m definitely going to start inserting the beginning Volume at beginning of the MIDI event list for every track, cause I’ve had both hiccups you described above, and with Volume it can get confusing as you chalk up subtle changes as ear fatigue or failure to Store and you start chasing your tail.

“The lesson here is to be aware of the current status of Parameters when you STORE. If necessary, insert more events to get things back to the way you want them. It’s also a good reason to SAVE your Song/Pattern to a file before editing, so that if things go awry you can retrieve the original version.

Hey 5SpinDIN

Does this mean once you install a volume event on a track, that track volume will no longer behave independently from the event, meaning you couldn’t be able to just set the volume to a certain number and have it stay there. Is that right?  Is this an automation in a way? When is it advisable to use these types of events on tracks?

Mlg4ever - 29 January 2021 10:41 PM

“The lesson here is to be aware of the current status of Parameters when you STORE. If necessary, insert more events to get things back to the way you want them. It’s also a good reason to SAVE your Song/Pattern to a file before editing, so that if things go awry you can retrieve the original version.“


Hey 5SpinDIN

Does this mean once you install a volume event on a track, that track volume will no longer behave independently from the event, meaning you couldn’t be able to just set the volume to a certain number and have it stay there. Is that right?  Is this an automation in a way? When is it advisable to use these types of events on tracks?

Track volume is never “independent” of Volume settings, be they in the header or events inserted later in the track data.

To recap what I said above…
Track volume is initially set by the value in the header, and it remains at that level unless a Volume event is encountered as the sequence progresses. If there is such an event, the volume then remains at the new level unless/until another Volume event is encountered - in which case the volume changes to that set by the most recent event, and remains there unless there’s another event, and so on.

By the way, those Volume events may be recorded to a Track due to operation of a controller such as a pedal, or through manual editing, etc.

Hey 5SpinDIN,
Thanks.
Following all your explanations by the letter I got it to work and behave somehow in the manner I expected it to. That means at the start of song it’s loud and good and it fades out at the end. When I play again it doesn’t stay in low volume. I plays entire song just fine and fades out at the end.
Concern:

I’m now looking at the volume tracks on my mix window but none of them is moving up or down while the volume goes up or down. They’re just not moving. How do I explain the change in volumes, since we’re talking about volume here. Please.

Referencing your answer down below. 👇

“Does this mean once you install a volume event on a track, that track volume will no longer behave independently from the event, meaning you couldn’t be able to just set the volume to a certain number and have it stay there. Is that right?  Is this an automation in a way? When is it advisable to use these types of events on tracks?

Track volume is never “independent” of Volume settings, be they in the header or events inserted later in the track data.”

Mlg4ever - 30 January 2021 03:32 AM

Hey 5SpinDIN,
Thanks.
Following all your explanations by the letter I got it to work and behave somehow in the manner I expected it to. That means at the start of song it’s loud and good and it fades out at the end. When I play again it doesn’t stay in low volume. I plays entire song just fine and fades out at the end.

You’re welcome - I’m glad you resolved the problem.

 

Mlg4ever -

Concern:

I’m now looking at the volume tracks on my mix window but none of them is moving up or down while the volume goes up or down. They’re just not moving. How do I explain the change in volumes, since we’re talking about volume here. Please.

Referencing your answer down below. 👇


“Does this mean once you install a volume event on a track, that track volume will no longer behave independently from the event, meaning you couldn’t be able to just set the volume to a certain number and have it stay there. Is that right?  Is this an automation in a way? When is it advisable to use these types of events on tracks?

Track volume is never “independent” of Volume settings, be they in the header or events inserted later in the track data.”

Since I don’t know what you’ve recorded, I can only guess at what you’re seeing and hearing. MIDI Volume is a Continuous Controller, CC#7. There’s also Expression, CC#11, which controls the percentage of the Volume setting and can be adjusted as you play/record with a pedal. In addition, you may be confusing Volume with loudness, which can vary due to the Velocity with which a key is struck. In other words, how loud you perceive a Track to be as it progresses is typically not controlled exclusively by MIDI Volume.

By the way, it’s 5pinDIN, like the MIDI connector (not 5SpinDIN).  :-)

Since I don’t know what you’ve recorded, I can only guess at what you’re seeing and hearing. MIDI Volume is a Continuous Controller, CC#7. There’s also Expression, CC#11, which controls the percentage of the Volume setting and can be adjusted as you play/record with a pedal. In addition, you may be confusing Volume with loudness, which can vary due to the Velocity with which a key is struck. In other words, how loud you perceive a Track to be as it progresses is typically not controlled exclusively by MIDI Volume.

I see what you mean. I think I recorded the CC#11 as it was suggested by the warning I mentioned earlier.
I know my main issue has been resolved. I was just curious as to what was really happening as I couldn’t wrap my head around it. Still can’t fully yet but you’ve pointed at all the right directions for me.

By the way, it’s 5pinDIN, like the MIDI connector (not 5SpinDIN).  :-)

Sorry man, I should know better for having written your Alias so many times over the years. For some weird reason my mind must have read that 5 as an capital S in reverse and kind of just typed it.
5pinDIN

I’ll be more careful lol 😆. Probably copy and paste is a surer bet. Eyes are so deceiving haha 😂.