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Viewing topic "Output on multiple MIDI channels to another synth…"

     
Posted on: December 17, 2019 @ 12:37 PM
TheRaven
Total Posts:  4
Joined  12-17-2019
status: Newcomer

Hi everyone, my first post here.  I’ve had my XS8 for a few years now and i’ve lurked around here but always was able to get the answer I needed.  This time i’m not sure if I have or not, so i’m asking directly.

I need to set up my XS8 to output what I play on the keyboard simultaneously on MIDI channels 1-4.  This is using the standard DIN MIDI out (as opposed to USB or firewire). 

Initially I tried setting up the four performance parts “output” to m1/m2/m3/m4 but that seems to do nothing as everything still outputs on channel 1.  I did a ton of research on this and learned that apparently, there is no way to output on multiple channels while in performance mode.  So why is that option present in part output settings?  Makes no sense.

Anyway, from what I have read, it appears that I actually have to set up a SONG or PATTERN with four tracks (corresponding to the four parts in the performance I already have)...set each track’s receive channel to 1 (so I can play all the tracks with the XS8 keyboard), and then set the each track to output to a MIDI channel (1-4).  The possible issue I see with this idea is this - what happens when I mute parts? Does MIDI output get turned off too? Can I even mute parts at all in this mode?

Basically what I need to be able to do is to start with a piano sound backed with a pad, then add in another synth sound, and then a fourth sound, one at a time at different points in the song.  I’ve already set this up on-board, but the XS8 is already choking with just the piano and first pad...the pad is cutting out between chord changes. So since i’ve got a Jupiter 80 with 256 notes of fresh polyphony sitting right above the XS8 on the rack...i’d love to offload sounds 3 and 4 onto the Jupiter.  But I still need to be able to activate those parts on the fly quickly.

  [ Ignore ]  

Posted on: December 17, 2019 @ 07:49 PM
5pinDIN
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TheRaven - 17 December 2019 12:37 PM

Hi everyone, my first post here.  I’ve had my XS8 for a few years now and i’ve lurked around here but always was able to get the answer I needed.  This time i’m not sure if I have or not, so i’m asking directly.

Welcome to the forum.

 

TheRaven -

I need to set up my XS8 to output what I play on the keyboard simultaneously on MIDI channels 1-4.  This is using the standard DIN MIDI out (as opposed to USB or firewire). 

Initially I tried setting up the four performance parts “output” to m1/m2/m3/m4 but that seems to do nothing as everything still outputs on channel 1.  I did a ton of research on this and learned that apparently, there is no way to output on multiple channels while in performance mode.  So why is that option present in part output settings?  Makes no sense.

The XS8 has the mLAN interface built in (it was optional for the XS6 and XS7). The m1 through m14 Output Select settings are mono outputs for mLAN - they have nothing to do with 5pin DIN MIDI channels. See (4) Output Select on page 153 of the XS Owner’s Manual.

 

TheRaven -

Anyway, from what I have read, it appears that I actually have to set up a SONG or PATTERN with four tracks (corresponding to the four parts in the performance I already have)...set each track’s receive channel to 1 (so I can play all the tracks with the XS8 keyboard), and then set the each track to output to a MIDI channel (1-4).  The possible issue I see with this idea is this - what happens when I mute parts? Does MIDI output get turned off too? Can I even mute parts at all in this mode?

Basically what I need to be able to do is to start with a piano sound backed with a pad, then add in another synth sound, and then a fourth sound, one at a time at different points in the song.  I’ve already set this up on-board, but the XS8 is already choking with just the piano and first pad...the pad is cutting out between chord changes. So since i’ve got a Jupiter 80 with 256 notes of fresh polyphony sitting right above the XS8 on the rack...i’d love to offload sounds 3 and 4 onto the Jupiter.  But I still need to be able to activate those parts on the fly quickly.

Here’s one possible approach…
Begin with a Song or Pattern Mixing. However, leave the Receive Channel settings at the default MIDI channels - Part 1 at MIDI Channel 1, Part 2 at MIDI Channel 2, etc. Then associate the Song/Pattern with a Master having the Zone Switch turned on. Set the Transmit Channel of Zones 1 through 4 to corresponding MIDI channel numbers, and turn on the Int and Ext Switches for those Zones. Other Zones should be inactive.

Programmed that way, pressing [EDIT] > [F1](Transmit) would give access to the Int and Ext Switches. Then the Zone can be selected by buttons [1]~[4], and the switches turned on/off using the [INC/YES] or [DEC/NO] buttons. You’ll have to decide if that sufficiently meets your “on the fly quickly” requirement.

See this support article…
http://www.motifator.com/index.php/support/view/understanding_motif_xs_master_mode
...and pages 251~258 of the XS Owner’s Manual.

The XS shouldn’t choke when playing just piano and a pad. Make sure there isn’t a MIDI feedback loop, since that alone could cause the problem. If you’re really exceeding the XS polyphony, then you could turn off the Int Switch for some channels and trigger external devices.

If the above doesn’t result in a satisfactory outcome, an alternative is to use Performance mode, and add a MIDI Event Processor to generate the additional channel outputs.

  [ Ignore ]  

Posted on: December 18, 2019 @ 06:14 AM
TheRaven
Total Posts:  4
Joined  12-17-2019
status: Newcomer
5pinDIN - 17 December 2019 07:49 PM

Here’s one possible approach…
Begin with a Song or Pattern Mixing. However, leave the Receive Channel settings at the default MIDI channels - Part 1 at MIDI Channel 1, Part 2 at MIDI Channel 2, etc. Then associate the Song/Pattern with a Master having the Zone Switch turned on. Set the Transmit Channel of Zones 1 through 4 to corresponding MIDI channel numbers, and turn on the Int and Ext Switches for those Zones. Other Zones should be inactive.

Programmed that way, pressing [EDIT] > [F1](Transmit) would give access to the Int and Ext Switches. Then the Zone can be selected by buttons [1]~[4], and the switches turned on/off using the [INC/YES] or [DEC/NO] buttons. You’ll have to decide if that sufficiently meets your “on the fly quickly” requirement.

See this support article…
http://www.motifator.com/index.php/support/view/understanding_motif_xs_master_mode
...and pages 251~258 of the XS Owner’s Manual.

The XS shouldn’t choke when playing just piano and a pad. Make sure there isn’t a MIDI feedback loop, since that alone could cause the problem. If you’re really exceeding the XS polyphony, then you could turn off the Int Switch for some channels and trigger external devices.

If the above doesn’t result in a satisfactory outcome, an alternative is to use Performance mode, and add a MIDI Event Processor to generate the additional channel outputs.

Thanks for your help!  This is good stuff.  I’ll give it a try tonight.

I tried the approach I described, using a SONG with all receive channels set to 1 and output channels set to 1-4 and that created a huge mess.  I had no part control whatsoever, any volume slider would control all four parts and the part mute switches did nothing...furthermore, the volume sliders would ALSO control all four parts on the Jupiter too!  So I actually ended up FURTHER from my goal that way.

I will check on the polyphony issue.  I will say this - initially I was using “Full Concert Grand” for the piano voice until I realized that it’s an 8-element voice which is completely unnecessary for a live performance on a 12k watt main...so I switched to “Romantic Piano” which is only 4-element...and now I can play the piano and pad ("Dark Light") together with no dropped notes.  However once I add in part three, which is a user voice that I created, the dropping starts again.  I discovered this problem well before I added any MIDI into the mix so it’s definitely not a MIDI problem.  It makes sense when you think about it because I was playing an 8-element voice stacked with a 4-element voice, so that’s 12-notes per key pressed, and i’m sometimes playing three and four-fingered chords with both hands while using sustain so that’s 72-96 notes per bar...and with bars overlapping with sustain, that’s blasting right through the 128-note limit.  No big deal, that’s why I have two boards...I knew I would have this problem.

I just figured it would be no issue to make them work together.  That’s where I was wrong. 

I’m also looking into this from the Jupiter angle...the big issue I have with the Jupiter is the way it’s controls work (or don’t) while it’s receiving MIDI.  It also has four-part performances, and it has part controls right on the main panel.  So just like on the Motif, I can quickly change volume and mute/unmute each part.  I can also independently set midi receive channels for each part.  Sounds great.  The problem is that the Motif can only output on one channel in performance mode, so I have to set all parts to that channel on the Jupiter, and then I have no part control on the Jupiter because those main panel controls only work for the local keyboard.  So it ends up being all or nothing on the Jupiter.  So then I need a way to mute/unmute the Jupiter, which I could do with an external mixer or something...but if I set it up this way, I lose the ability to use the Motif and Jupiter as standalone units (play one voice on the Motif with one hand and another on the Jupiter with the other hand)...the Motif will always be playing the Jupiter.

The external MIDI processor idea sounds like it could be a solution...if I could have a device that would accept output from the Motif, on channel one, and copy that to channels 1-4 (or even more), and allow me to turn each channel on/off independently, that would work.  I haven’t found anything (that I can discern) that does something like that.

  [ Ignore ]  

Posted on: December 18, 2019 @ 08:08 AM
5pinDIN
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TheRaven - 18 December 2019 06:14 AM

Thanks for your help!  This is good stuff.  I’ll give it a try tonight.

You’re welcome.

 

TheRaven -

[...]
The external MIDI processor idea sounds like it could be a solution...if I could have a device that would accept output from the Motif, on channel one, and copy that to channels 1-4 (or even more), and allow me to turn each channel on/off independently, that would work.  I haven’t found anything (that I can discern) that does something like that.

You might want to consider http://www.midisolutions.com/prodevp.htm

See http://www.midisolutions.com/applicat.htm#EventProcessors

There may be other such devices on the market serving a similar purpose. The product I mentioned is given as an example.

  [ Ignore ]  

Posted on: December 18, 2019 @ 10:05 AM
TheRaven
Total Posts:  4
Joined  12-17-2019
status: Newcomer
5pinDIN - 18 December 2019 08:08 AM

You might want to consider http://www.midisolutions.com/prodevp.htm

See http://www.midisolutions.com/applicat.htm#EventProcessors

There may be other such devices on the market serving a similar purpose. The product I mentioned is given as an example.

This looks like it may be the best way to go.  The dual footswitch controller could be the perfect solution if I can program it to take input from the Motif on, say, channel 1, and then copy it to channel 2 when footswitch one is hit, and channel 3 when footswitch 2 is hit.  Or perhaps I can use the Event Processor to do the same in response to CC messages from the Motif...assuming the Motif can generate something that would work (perhaps reading whatever CC’s are produced when the different part mute buttons are hit and using those. 

I’ll contact MIDI Solutions and see if they will offer suggestions.

Thanks!

  [ Ignore ]  

Posted on: December 18, 2019 @ 02:06 PM
5pinDIN
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I hope you can find a satisfactory setup.

It’s unfortunate that Yamaha didn’t update the XS OS to include a feature that became available on the XF starting with OS version 1.40. In Master mode, pressing the [PERFORMANCE CONTROL] button causes the Zone Int and Ext Switches to be directly accessible via the numbered buttons - [1]~[8] control internal switches for Zones 1~8, while [9]~[16] do the same for the external switches for Zones 1~8. That feature makes the XF more friendly for use as a Master controller.

  [ Ignore ]  

Posted on: December 18, 2019 @ 04:39 PM
5pinDIN
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TheRaven - 18 December 2019 06:14 AM

[...]
I will check on the polyphony issue.  I will say this - initially I was using “Full Concert Grand” for the piano voice until I realized that it’s an 8-element voice which is completely unnecessary for a live performance on a 12k watt main...so I switched to “Romantic Piano” which is only 4-element...and now I can play the piano and pad ("Dark Light") together with no dropped notes.  However once I add in part three, which is a user voice that I created, the dropping starts again.  I discovered this problem well before I added any MIDI into the mix so it’s definitely not a MIDI problem.  It makes sense when you think about it because I was playing an 8-element voice stacked with a 4-element voice, so that’s 12-notes per key pressed, and i’m sometimes playing three and four-fingered chords with both hands while using sustain so that’s 72-96 notes per bar...and with bars overlapping with sustain, that’s blasting right through the 128-note limit.  No big deal, that’s why I have two boards...I knew I would have this problem. [...]

I’d like to address the polyphony issue, because it’s often misunderstood.

“Full Concert Grand”, although an 8-Element Voice, actually only uses two Elements per note. If you go into Edit mode and look at each Element, you’ll see that Elements 1~7 have different note and velocity range settings. Only one will be playing when any particular key is struck with a certain force. Element 8 is the key-off sound. Since “Full Concert Grand” uses stereo samples, each note requires two units of polyphony. While “Romantic Piano” is a 4-Element Voice, it uses the same polyphony count per note.

See http://www.motifator.com/index.php/support/view/how_to_count_polyphony_motif_xs

I decided to create a Performance on my XF with “Full Concert Grand” (PRE1 A01/001) as Part 1 and “Dark Light” (PRE5 H06/118) as Part 2. Playing lots of full-fisted chords with both hands and sustain, I was not noticing the dropouts you’ve mentioned. Just be sure there wasn’t a difference between models, I tried the same on my XS, but didn’t experience a noticeable problem with it either.

I’m not sure what’s causing the problem for you. Both of my Motifs have the most recent firmware installed - for the XS, that’s version 1.60. Although I’m not aware of polyphony issues with earlier versions, is your XS OS up to date?

I realize that you said the problem existed before MIDI was “in the mix”, but you might want to disconnect any cables other than power, audio, MIDI-out, and the sustain pedal, and check again.

  [ Ignore ]  

Posted on: December 19, 2019 @ 06:16 AM
TheRaven
Total Posts:  4
Joined  12-17-2019
status: Newcomer
5pinDIN - 18 December 2019 04:39 PM

I realize that you said the problem existed before MIDI was “in the mix”, but you might want to disconnect any cables other than power, audio, MIDI-out, and the sustain pedal, and check again.

I will examine this more tonight, but I still had the problem last night with no MIDI connected at all.  Just power, sustain pedal, and main out.  To be clear - I can play “Romantic Piano” and “Dark Light” together with no drops at all, no matter how many fingers and how much sustain.  But as soon as I add in my third (user, 4-element) voice, it’s drop city.

This, to me, is expected.  There’s a lot going on with those three voices together.  And it’s even more of a circus on the Jupiter - that board supposedly has 256-note polyphony but apparently notes on the Jupiter are like points in “Who’s Line is it Anyway” (they don’t matter).  Try playing any “Supernatural Acoustic” voice layered with anything, and you might as well be playing on a Moog.  As long as I stay away from the acoustic voices, the Jupiter feels like a never-ending abyss of polyphony...but man those acoustic sets just absolutely murder polyphony.

This is why i’m leaning towards using the Motif for “real” instruments and the Jupiter for synthetic stuff...it’s got a pad/string library like i’ve never experienced before, and the Motif’s pianos just completely put the Jupiter’s pianos to shame.  Using that Midi Solutions event processor, I can set up my Motif performances so that the AF1 and AF2 buttons can turn on/off output on channels 5 and 6.  So I can set up the Jupiter to play it’s upper part on channel 5 and it’s lower part on channel 6.  Due to its architecture, that gives me the equivalent of 24 additional “oscillators” that I can toggle on/off from the Motif.  So in effect, the Motif will have parts 1-4 and the Jupiter will have parts 5-6.  This should be perfect.

  [ Ignore ]  

Posted on: December 19, 2019 @ 06:51 AM
5pinDIN
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TheRaven - 19 December 2019 06:16 AM

I will examine this more tonight, but I still had the problem last night with no MIDI connected at all.  Just power, sustain pedal, and main out.  To be clear - I can play “Romantic Piano” and “Dark Light” together with no drops at all, no matter how many fingers and how much sustain.  But as soon as I add in my third (user, 4-element) voice, it’s drop city.

This, to me, is expected.  There’s a lot going on with those three voices together.

OK - it wasn’t previously clear to me that the problem only occurred when the third Voice/Part was added.

 

TheRaven -

And it’s even more of a circus on the Jupiter - that board supposedly has 256-note polyphony but apparently notes on the Jupiter are like points in “Who’s Line is it Anyway” (they don’t matter).  Try playing any “Supernatural Acoustic” voice layered with anything, and you might as well be playing on a Moog.  As long as I stay away from the acoustic voices, the Jupiter feels like a never-ending abyss of polyphony...but man those acoustic sets just absolutely murder polyphony.

This is why i’m leaning towards using the Motif for “real” instruments and the Jupiter for synthetic stuff...it’s got a pad/string library like i’ve never experienced before, and the Motif’s pianos just completely put the Jupiter’s pianos to shame.  Using that Midi Solutions event processor, I can set up my Motif performances so that the AF1 and AF2 buttons can turn on/off output on channels 5 and 6.  So I can set up the Jupiter to play it’s upper part on channel 5 and it’s lower part on channel 6.  Due to its architecture, that gives me the equivalent of 24 additional “oscillators” that I can toggle on/off from the Motif.  So in effect, the Motif will have parts 1-4 and the Jupiter will have parts 5-6.  This should be perfect.

Great - sounds like the situation is under control. I hope it all works for you as anticipated.

  [ Ignore ]  


 
     


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