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Viewing topic "Daisy-chain a MOTIF6 to a computer."

     
Posted on: June 18, 2019 @ 03:14 PM
jlanpheer
Total Posts:  4
Joined  06-18-2019
status: Newcomer

Hi-

Simple daisy-chaining question that i can’t seem to solve.

I’ve got a second old keyboard (Kurzweil K5000S) that i am wanting to use to send keyswitch messages to my DAW using the low end of the keyboard (C0-B0, when i get the below working).  I’m actually playing music on my Motif as the keyboard controller.  My goal is simply to route the K5000S notes thru the Motif6 and on to my DAW.  If i run either controller straight into my DAW, that works with both controllers individually on their own.  My goal is to set the K5000S down a couple of octaves and have it send MIDI notes that the DAW will interpret to do “non-note-based things”.  :-)

So, i have K5000S MIDI Out running into Motif6 MIDI Thru port transmitting on MIDI channel 2.
I have the Motif6 MIDI Out running to my computer with internal MIDI settings of:
BasicRcvCh of 2
KBDTransCh of 1

Playing notes on the K5000S has no effect, the Motif6 works fine.  If i understand this correctly and have it set up correctly, i “should” be able to play the K5000S and have the signal go thru the Motif6, onto the DAW and it should play, isn’t that correct?

So, i’m missing something here and i’m wondering if anyone can help me out?  I understand that i could also get a MIDI merge box to do this, but i don’t see the need for that if i can get this simple thing to work.

cheers,
jim.

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Posted on: June 18, 2019 @ 06:19 PM
5pinDIN
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Total Posts:  10970
Joined  09-16-2010
status: Legend
jlanpheer - 18 June 2019 03:14 PM

Hi-

Welcome to the forum.

 

jlanpheer -

Simple daisy-chaining question that i can’t seem to solve.

I’ve got a second old keyboard (Kurzweil K5000S) that i am wanting to use to send keyswitch messages to my DAW using the low end of the keyboard (C0-B0, when i get the below working).  I’m actually playing music on my Motif as the keyboard controller.  My goal is simply to route the K5000S notes thru the Motif6 and on to my DAW.  If i run either controller straight into my DAW, that works with both controllers individually on their own.  My goal is to set the K5000S down a couple of octaves and have it send MIDI notes that the DAW will interpret to do “non-note-based things”.  :-)

So, i have K5000S MIDI Out running into Motif6 MIDI Thru port transmitting on MIDI channel 2.

A MIDI-Thru port isn’t an input - it’s an output which echoes MIDI data received at MIDI-In.

If the K5000S is connected to the Motif’s MIDI-In, then the C0~B0 notes will appear at the Motif’s MIDI-Out. The problem, of course, is that if nothing else is done the Motif’s tone generator will play those notes. An approach to resolving that issue is use of a Zoned Master setup with proper Note Limit and TGSwitch settings, in addition to transmit and receive channel settings.

I suggest downloading the PDF linked in this support article for details:
http://www.motifator.com/index.php/support/view/understanding_motif_master_mode

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Posted on: June 18, 2019 @ 11:19 PM
jlanpheer
Total Posts:  4
Joined  06-18-2019
status: Newcomer
5pinDIN - 18 June 2019 06:19 PM
jlanpheer - 18 June 2019 03:14 PM

Hi-

Welcome to the forum.

 

jlanpheer -

Simple daisy-chaining question that i can’t seem to solve.

I’ve got a second old keyboard (Kurzweil K5000S) that i am wanting to use to send keyswitch messages to my DAW using the low end of the keyboard (C0-B0, when i get the below working).  I’m actually playing music on my Motif as the keyboard controller.  My goal is simply to route the K5000S notes thru the Motif6 and on to my DAW.  If i run either controller straight into my DAW, that works with both controllers individually on their own.  My goal is to set the K5000S down a couple of octaves and have it send MIDI notes that the DAW will interpret to do “non-note-based things”.  :-)

So, i have K5000S MIDI Out running into Motif6 MIDI Thru port transmitting on MIDI channel 2.

A MIDI-Thru port isn’t an input - it’s an output which echoes MIDI data received at MIDI-In.

If the K5000S is connected to the Motif’s MIDI-In, then the C0~B0 notes will appear at the Motif’s MIDI-Out. The problem, of course, is that if nothing else is done the Motif’s tone generator will play those notes. An approach to resolving that issue is use of a Zoned Master setup with proper Note Limit and TGSwitch settings, in addition to transmit and receive channel settings.

I suggest downloading the PDF linked in this support article for details:
http://www.motifator.com/index.php/support/view/understanding_motif_master_mode

Thank you for the warm welcome, i appreciate that!

I understand your reply pretty well i think, and i will definitely read the support article that you’ve suggested, thank you for pointing me to that.

I do want to push back on a couple of things that you said, maybe i don’t understand them.  I understand what you are saying about the MIDI Thru port.  So, my first stab at solving this problem resulted in the following patching:

K5000S MIDI Out -> Motif MIDI In and.....
Motif MIDI Out -> MIDI Patch Bay (Logic)

If i understood your statement “If the K5000S is connected to the Motif’s MIDI-In, then the C0~B0 notes will appear at the Motif’s MIDI-Out” correctly, then this is a description of EXACTLY the behavior that i am shooting for.  However, that is not working that way, and i’ve tested that.  Playing notes on the Motif are registered by the DAW, notes played on the K5000 do not.  If that did work, i would think that my problem would be solved, after all, i don’t have the audio out’s on the Motif hooked up to anything at all, there’s no danger and/or worry of the Motif actually physically producing those notes.  If what you say is true and the C0-B0 notes would be transmitted via the Motif MIDI Out to my DAW, then i would actually have the solution that i need.  I have already set up “zones” in the software instrument of my DAW to treat those notes (if received) in different ways.  The problem is that they are not being received at all (which i have verified via the MIDI Monitor app on my Mac).

So, i will read the support article that you’ve suggested, but without reading it, i think it might be explaining to me how to set up zones on my Motif, and my original solution (which of course, is NOT working) is to simply pass all of the MIDI information along to the DAW and let the software instrument do the work of interpreting it.  None of the synths listed here have any audio out’s hooked to anything, this is all strictly MIDI patching as controllers.  I would think that it would be simple to patch this such that the Motif simply collects all of the incoming MIDI messages from the K5000S and simply passes them along.  And that’s QUITE possibly naivete on my part.  :-)

Thank you for the reply and the suggestion!
cheers,
jim.

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Posted on: June 19, 2019 @ 04:04 AM
5pinDIN
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Total Posts:  10970
Joined  09-16-2010
status: Legend

Sorry, I probably shouldn’t post a reply when I’m half asleep.  :-)

I have several pieces of MIDI gear - I forgot that unlike some, Motifs don’t have the ability to echo MIDI-In data to MIDI-Out.

If you have a MIDI interface so that the K5000S can be connected to your computer, and the Motif is connected via USB, then MIDI data merging can be done with a program such as MIDI-OX’s MIDI-Yoke (for the PC)…
http://www.midiox.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=query;action=display;num=1404749224

There should be similar applications available for the Mac.

Otherwise, indeed MIDI merger hardware such as available from MIDI Solutions would be appropriate.

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Posted on: June 21, 2019 @ 12:32 AM
jlanpheer
Total Posts:  4
Joined  06-18-2019
status: Newcomer
5pinDIN - 19 June 2019 04:04 AM

Sorry, I probably shouldn’t post a reply when I’m half asleep.  :-)

I’m sorry to have disturbed you!  :-)

I have several pieces of MIDI gear - I forgot that unlike some, Motifs don’t have the ability to echo MIDI-In data to MIDI-Out.

Interesting.... but my experiments bear this out.  This still doesn’t explain to me why MIDI Thru wouldn’t work.  Would the proper patching be to take MIDI OUT on the K5000S to the MIDI In on the Motif and then, the MIDI Thru out to my audio interface?  Would that be the “typical” patching and that wouldn’t work here?  Not sure i understand why that is.

I’ve read the document that you’ve suggested and watched a couple of videos on Master Mode.  I could probably do that, but i think something like MIDI Ox (as you’ve suggested) would be probably simpler than that - just a gut feel.  There’s probably better options out there for me.

cheers,
jim.

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Posted on: June 21, 2019 @ 02:51 AM
5pinDIN
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Total Posts:  10970
Joined  09-16-2010
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jlanpheer - 21 June 2019 12:32 AM

This still doesn’t explain to me why MIDI Thru wouldn’t work.  Would the proper patching be to take MIDI OUT on the K5000S to the MIDI In on the Motif and then, the MIDI Thru out to my audio interface?  Would that be the “typical” patching and that wouldn’t work here?  Not sure i understand why that is.

MIDI-Thru can be useful for daisy-chaining - for example, the K5000S connected to the Motif’s MIDI-In could play the Motif as well as another synth connected to the Motif’s MIDI-Thru. However, MIDI-Thru won’t help in your situation, since its data doesn’t include what’s generated by the Motif (it only echoes that from the K5000S).

If the K5000S had USB MIDI, then the problem would be solved, since either the DAW or a program like MIDI-OX could see data from both the K5000S and the Motif. One possible solution could be to use a USB MIDI interface/"cable" on the K5000S MIDI-Out. Many of them are inexpensive, but can have limitations - you’d have to verify compatibility with your computer, and some don’t work well with dense data such as SysEx. However, even the cheap ones usually function adequately with Note-On/Note-Off, which would be your intended usage.

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Posted on: June 22, 2019 @ 09:22 AM
jlanpheer
Total Posts:  4
Joined  06-18-2019
status: Newcomer
5pinDIN - 21 June 2019 02:51 AM
jlanpheer - 21 June 2019 12:32 AM

This still doesn’t explain to me why MIDI Thru wouldn’t work.  Would the proper patching be to take MIDI OUT on the K5000S to the MIDI In on the Motif and then, the MIDI Thru out to my audio interface?  Would that be the “typical” patching and that wouldn’t work here?  Not sure i understand why that is.

MIDI-Thru can be useful for daisy-chaining - for example, the K5000S connected to the Motif’s MIDI-In could play the Motif as well as another synth connected to the Motif’s MIDI-Thru. However, MIDI-Thru won’t help in your situation, since its data doesn’t include what’s generated by the Motif (it only echoes that from the K5000S).

If the K5000S had USB MIDI, then the problem would be solved, since either the DAW or a program like MIDI-OX could see data from both the K5000S and the Motif. One possible solution could be to use a USB MIDI interface/"cable" on the K5000S MIDI-Out. Many of them are inexpensive, but can have limitations - you’d have to verify compatibility with your computer, and some don’t work well with dense data such as SysEx. However, even the cheap ones usually function adequately with Note-On/Note-Off, which would be your intended usage.

Thank you for the patient explanations, i understand MIDI Merge much better now and understand why it won’t work here.  Do most/all synths handle MIDI Merge in the same way (i.e. they merely pass thru signals received and don’t merge any MIDI messages generated by the unit itself)?

Some sort of MIDI merging will be required on my end obviously, and i’m gettin’ to it!
cheers,
jim.

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Posted on: June 22, 2019 @ 10:42 AM
5pinDIN
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Total Posts:  10970
Joined  09-16-2010
status: Legend
jlanpheer - 22 June 2019 09:22 AM

Thank you for the patient explanations, i understand MIDI Merge much better now and understand why it won’t work here.

You’re welcome.

 

jlanpheer -

Do most/all synths handle MIDI Merge in the same way (i.e. they merely pass thru signals received and don’t merge any MIDI messages generated by the unit itself)?

Typically the MIDI-Thru signal is obtained via hardware. MIDI-In connects to an opto-coupler, the output of which (besides controlling the synth) goes to MIDI-Thru.

When a synth can echo to MIDI-Out, it’s typically done via software (firmware), since some intelligence is needed so that the merged messages (from MIDI-In and internal to the synth) don’t “step on” each other. Otherwise, the data gets mangled.

 

jlanpheer -

Some sort of MIDI merging will be required on my end obviously, and i’m gettin’ to it!
cheers,
jim.

You’re apparently determined, and will likely succeed!

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