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Viewing topic "Any more details on Motif Samples?"

     
Posted on: March 07, 2019 @ 07:25 PM
lastmonk
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Joined  12-17-2013
status: Enthusiast

Is the most detailed source documentation available for the Motif XF voices the Data List?

I’m trying to determine what was actually sampled for some of the acoustic instrument voices.

For example in the strings category there is a voice named Large Section

from the data list for Large Section it shows there are 4 elements in the voice

When I go into voice edit mode I can determine there are actually 5 elements:

EL 1 Orchstrgs Soft St
El 2 Orchstrgs Med st
El 3 Orchstrgs Hard St
El 4 Ensemble Mix St
El 5 Large Pizzacato St

So I assume the Data List needs updating.  But in either case, I wondering is there any way to find out how many violins, violas, whatever were actually sampled for the Orchstrgs , Ensemble, and Large Pizzacato wav forms.

Same kind of question for a voice like Orchestra Brass.

Datalist shows this voice has 4 elements, but when I go into edit mode I see 7 elements:

El 1 French Horn Med
El 2 French Horn Med
El 3 Brass Sect2
El 4 Brass Sect2 Med
El 5 Brass Sect 2 Hard
El 6 Brass Sect 2 Med
El 7 Brass Sect 2 Hard

And in this case is there any way to find out what the instruments were that were sampled for Brass Sect 2?

I’m more or less looking for counts and instrument types here.  Like how many instruments constitutes Large Pizzacto and what were they? 

Or is there some kind of naming convention for the waveform names that would indicated what the waveform is made up of.

For some of the voices its clear by the names, or upon inspecting the actual elements, others not so much.

Or would Yamaha consider this level of detail confidential?

  [ Ignore ]  

Posted on: March 08, 2019 @ 01:48 AM
5pinDIN
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Total Posts:  11070
Joined  09-16-2010
status: Legend
lastmonk - 07 March 2019 07:25 PM

Is the most detailed source documentation available for the Motif XF voices the Data List?

From Yamaha, that’s about all I’m aware of.

 

lastmonk -

I’m trying to determine what was actually sampled for some of the acoustic instrument voices.

I doubt that Yamaha will ever reveal specifics of the numerous sampling sessions leading to the Waveforms.

 

lastmonk -

For example in the strings category there is a voice named Large Section

from the data list for Large Section it shows there are 4 elements in the voice

When I go into voice edit mode I can determine there are actually 5 elements:

EL 1 Orchstrgs Soft St
El 2 Orchstrgs Med st
El 3 Orchstrgs Hard St
El 4 Ensemble Mix St
El 5 Large Pizzacato St

So I assume the Data List needs updating.

The Data List is mostly accurate, as far as it goes. There’s more to understand than what the Data List reveals about the number of Elements in a Voice.

Many Voices use XA Control to determine which Elements are active when AF1 or AF2 buttons are pressed. In the example of Large Section (PRE4 018/B02), Elements 1~4 have XA Control set to “all AF off”, while the Element 5 setting is “AF 1 on”. The result is that the first four Elements can be played when no AF button is pressed, but when AF1 is pressed only Element 5 can be played.

Apparently the Data List typically indicates how many Elements are accessible when neither AF button is pressed.

See http://www.motifator.com/index.php/forum/viewthread/453796/ for my list of how AF button operation affects Element usage, and don’t miss the updated list on the second page of that thread…
http://www.motifator.com/index.php/forum/viewthread/453796/P15/

Not all Elements in a Voice are necessarily active at once, aside from XA Control operation. For Large Section, Elements 1~3 have different Velocity Limits, and the ranges don’t overlap. The result is that only two Elements at most will play at once, Element 4 and one of the Elements 1~3.

 

lastmonk -

But in either case, I wondering is there any way to find out how many violins, violas, whatever were actually sampled for the Orchstrgs , Ensemble, and Large Pizzacato wav forms.

You could try contacting Yamaha, although in my opinion it’s unlikely.

 

lastmonk -

Same kind of question for a voice like Orchestra Brass.

Datalist shows this voice has 4 elements, but when I go into edit mode I see 7 elements:

El 1 French Horn Med
El 2 French Horn Med
El 3 Brass Sect2
El 4 Brass Sect2 Med
El 5 Brass Sect 2 Hard
El 6 Brass Sect 2 Med
El 7 Brass Sect 2 Hard

In Orchestra Brass (PRE4 092/F12) XA Control is “normal” for Elements 1~5, and “AF 1 on” for Elements 6+7. Also, there are Velocity Limit settings for all of the Elements. Therefore when AF1 is pressed, Element 6 or 7 will play in addition to 1 or 2 plus either 3, 4, or 5. It’s unclear to me how Yamaha arrived at an Element count of “4” for this Voice.

 

lastmonk -

And in this case is there any way to find out what the instruments were that were sampled for Brass Sect 2?

I’m more or less looking for counts and instrument types here.  Like how many instruments constitutes Large Pizzacto and what were they? 

Or is there some kind of naming convention for the waveform names that would indicated what the waveform is made up of.


For some of the voices its clear by the names, or upon inspecting the actual elements, others not so much.

Or would Yamaha consider this level of detail confidential?

Waveform naming is kind of cryptic, somewhat due to the apparent desire to limit the number of characters in each name. Nomenclature like Soft/Med/Hard should be obvious. Stretch/Flat refers to tunings. St/Mn are stereo/mono. Etc. Unfortunately none of that reveals anything about what instruments were sampled.

This all begs a question: Why is knowing the details important? In my experience, either a Voice or Waveform fits the needs, or not. Knowing the origins/composition doesn’t change that.

  [ Ignore ]  

Posted on: March 08, 2019 @ 03:24 PM
lastmonk
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Total Posts:  242
Joined  12-17-2013
status: Enthusiast

Thanx 5pinDIN,

The Data list element column in the Data List is therefore not self explanatory LOL.  Yea, just looking at it, the guess would be it lets you know the # of elements used in a voice.  But I can see where it would also make sense for it to refer to the # of active elements in a voice.  Especially for those of us who have to count polyphony for one reason or another.  So that clarification on what that column means is very useful!!!!

I do understand the XA and limit, and velocity parameters and know how they are used in voice construction.

I kind a guessed that those recording sessions may have been more or less trade secret stuff back in those days.  Probably not so much these days, though, as in many acoustic sample libraries have to disclose precisely what was sampled and how it was sampled or the musician will pass over that library!!!  Especially with respect to Orchestral Samples.

I found one or two references to the Seattle Symphony for some of the sample recording for Motif strings.  Not quite sure how reliable or applicable that info is for the Motif XF though.

But in retrospect, I realized instead of getting bogged down in what constituted some aggregate sound in a given Motif waveform e.g.  Orchstrngs, I could simply make my own ensembles out of the individual voices that were recorded, e.g.  Clarinet, Bassoon, Oboe, etc.

e.g.  If I need and ensemble of 10 instruments:  2 bassoons, 3 flutes, 2 oboes, 3 clarinets as a woodwind section, then I could use a combination of oscillators, and mixvoice with channel manipulation to get my 10 instrument ensemble as a mixvoice.

I’m doing some work with woodwind sections, and I now realize that I can create my ideal woodwind section with a mixvoice, and although the Motif did not sample the particular “woodwind section size and type “ that I need, I could create my own using the solo voices, XA, detuning, velocity mapping, zoning and my ctlset.  For sure the Motif will struggle competing against some of the large orchestral samples out there, but for small to medium ensembles, or chamber sized orchestration, the Motif rocks and I don’t have to F!@# around with VSTs.

The more I dig into my Motif/Mox ... the more satisfied I get.  It seems like virtually any problem I throw at it, if I just slow down , give it some thought, read the docs, and ask for a little help, the Motif rises to the occasion.

So in this situation: problem solved!  I now know how to create my own custom ensemble size and types with supporting articulation, by combining the 8 elements per voice, and the 16 voices in a mixvoice.  That means depending on how I play my cards, I have up to 128 instruments to use as a virtual ensemble or orchestra .

I’m almost finished creating my custom woodwind section.

And again thanx for clarifying up the element column in the Data list.  Perhaps Yamaha could have named the Column “Active Elements”.....

Cheers!

  [ Ignore ]  

Posted on: March 08, 2019 @ 04:21 PM
5pinDIN
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Total Posts:  11070
Joined  09-16-2010
status: Legend
lastmonk - 08 March 2019 03:24 PM

Thanx 5pinDIN,

You’re welcome.

 

lastmonk -

The Data list element column in the Data List is therefore not self explanatory LOL.  Yea, just looking at it, the guess would be it lets you know the # of elements used in a voice.  But I can see where it would also make sense for it to refer to the # of active elements in a voice.  Especially for those of us who have to count polyphony for one reason or another.  So that clarification on what that column means is very useful!!!!

This discussion has reminded me of a previous one…
http://www.motifator.com/index.php/forum/viewthread/478786/

 

lastmonk -

I do understand the XA and limit, and velocity parameters and know how they are used in voice construction.

I kind a guessed that those recording sessions may have been more or less trade secret stuff back in those days.  Probably not so much these days, though, as in many acoustic sample libraries have to disclose precisely what was sampled and how it was sampled or the musician will pass over that library!!!  Especially with respect to Orchestral Samples.

I found one or two references to the Seattle Symphony for some of the sample recording for Motif strings.  Not quite sure how reliable or applicable that info is for the Motif XF though.

But in retrospect, I realized instead of getting bogged down in what constituted some aggregate sound in a given Motif waveform e.g.  Orchstrngs, I could simply make my own ensembles out of the individual voices that were recorded, e.g.  Clarinet, Bassoon, Oboe, etc.

e.g.  If I need and ensemble of 10 instruments:  2 bassoons, 3 flutes, 2 oboes, 3 clarinets as a woodwind section, then I could use a combination of oscillators, and mixvoice with channel manipulation to get my 10 instrument ensemble as a mixvoice.

I’m doing some work with woodwind sections, and I now realize that I can create my ideal woodwind section with a mixvoice, and although the Motif did not sample the particular “woodwind section size and type “ that I need, I could create my own using the solo voices, XA, detuning, velocity mapping, zoning and my ctlset.  For sure the Motif will struggle competing against some of the large orchestral samples out there, but for small to medium ensembles, or chamber sized orchestration, the Motif rocks and I don’t have to F!@# around with VSTs.


The more I dig into my Motif/Mox ... the more satisfied I get.  It seems like virtually any problem I throw at it, if I just slow down , give it some thought, read the docs, and ask for a little help, the Motif rises to the occasion.


So in this situation: problem solved!  I now know how to create my own custom ensemble size and types with supporting articulation, by combining the 8 elements per voice, and the 16 voices in a mixvoice.  That means depending on how I play my cards, I have up to 128 instruments to use as a virtual ensemble or orchestra .

Just to clarify terms a bit…

There are 16 Parts available in a Song or Pattern Mixing. Each of those Parts could contain a Preset or User Voice, or a Mix Voice. While Mix Voices have the same basic limitations as Preset or User ones, they allow customized versions to be stored without taking up User Voice locations. Up to 16 Mix Voices can be stored per Song/Pattern Mixing, with a maximum total of 256.

See the Mix Voice support article for details:
http://www.motifator.com/index.php/support/view/motif_xf_the_mix_voice

 

lastmonk -

I’m almost finished creating my custom woodwind section.


And again thanx for clarifying up the element column in the Data list.  Perhaps Yamaha could have named the Column “Active Elements”.....


Cheers!

No Problem. Good luck in “assembling” your orchestra.

  [ Ignore ]  

Posted on: March 08, 2019 @ 09:15 PM
lastmonk
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Total Posts:  242
Joined  12-17-2013
status: Enthusiast

LOL, this is good stuff!!!

The previous post much appreciated.

And wow, did not realize that one of the voices in a mix voice could be a mixvoice.  That’s crazy.  OMG!

Thanx that just makes everything better.

  [ Ignore ]  


 
     


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