Hi All,
Just purchased a new Yamaha MODX. Great keyboard!!!
Will a MODX forum be added to Motifator to keep the MOTIF lineage intact and developing?

For all the MOXF owner/users out there who may upgrade to the MODX.
For those techos -Some help in detailed instructions on how to transfer/migrate MOXF Voice libraries and User Performance to MODX would be great if anyone can assist.
Regards

musomarkyboy - 25 September 2018 05:47 AM

Hi All,
Just purchased a new Yamaha MODX. Great keyboard!!!
Will a MODX forum be added to Motifator to keep the MOTIF lineage intact and developing?

I’ll preface my reply by stating that although I participate in the Motifator forums, I’m not an employee of Motifator/Keyfax and I have no say in whether the MODX will get a dedicated forum here.

Having said that…
The MODX is a lower-cost version of the Montage. The Montage, in my opinion, is not part of the “MOTIF lineage”, but a significant departure from it. It appears that the MODX will have a substantial following, but I’m not sure that Motifator ("Support for the Motif Community") is the place for it.

On the other hand, it’s likely that covering the MODX would increase traffic to the Motifator site. Whether that would be helpful or detrimental is difficult to predict. I guess we’ll see what the “powers that be” think of the situation.

MODX forum is here: http://bit.do/modxyf

It would be nice to have a Montage/MODX section here as well. Different people/history. Despite the lack of a full sequencer (which takes it out of the “workstation” category), I think it is essentially the next generation Motif.

According to the Yamaha web site, Montage and MODX are “fully compatible with the Yamaha MOTIF XF/MOXF synthesizer...MOTIF XF/MOXF libraried, third-party patch libraries, user voices, user performances, user arpeggios and user waveforms from MOTIF XF/MOTIF XS/MOXF files can be imported.”

With the move to computer and iPad based DAWs, these non-sequencer Motif compatible models probably represent the future of “Motif.” Name aside, I think they are as much Motifs as the S90 and MX models are, which do have sections in this forum, and are similarly not called “Motif” despite having Motiif sounds and a lot of Motif technology.

+1 :)

anotherscott - 28 September 2018 02:24 PM

It would be nice to have a Montage/MODX section here as well. Different people/history. Despite the lack of a full sequencer (which takes it out of the “workstation” category), I think it is essentially the next generation Motif.

Are you implying that the primary difference between the Motif XF and the Montage is the sequencer? If so, I think you’re being a bit disingenuous.

 

anotherscott -

According to the Yamaha web site, Montage and MODX are “fully compatible with the Yamaha MOTIF XF/MOXF synthesizer...MOTIF XF/MOXF libraried, third-party patch libraries, user voices, user performances, user arpeggios and user waveforms from MOTIF XF/MOTIF XS/MOXF files can be imported.”

After a few OS updates, Yamaha has managed to make the Montage more like a Motif in certain respects. I wonder why…  ;-)

If that’s a verbatim quote, I’m surprised that Phil Clendeninn hasn’t had a coronary, since he’s such a stickler for proper use of the word “patch” in Yamaha parlance.  :-)

By the way, don’t get me wrong - I really don’t care whether Motifator decides to include Montage and/or MODX forums.

5pinDIN - 28 September 2018 08:39 PM

Are you implying that the primary difference between the Motif XF and the Montage is the sequencer? If so, I think you’re being a bit disingenuous.

No, that’s not what I was implying. I was merely recognizing that, if you see Montage as the next generation of Motif, it would be the first time that the top-of-the-line board in the series didn’t have a full workstation-class sequencer. But that’s fine, lots of boards covered on Motifator don’t have that, and with the advances in laptop/tablet DAWS since the first Motif came out, the need for having that stuff in the board continues to dwindle.

5pinDIN - 28 September 2018 08:39 PM

After a few OS updates, Yamaha has managed to make the Montage more like a Motif in certain respects. I wonder why…  ;-)

That’s kind of my point. The market said they really wanted the new machine to also be a Motif… and the way I see it, Yamaha made it happen. Despite all the differences, there is a clear Motif heritage to much of the architecture… and now, even more Motif backwards compatibility than the Motif ES and XS had. (ES was not compatible with all the original Motif voices; XS was not compatible with all the ES voices; but Montage can give you all the XF voices, etc.)

5pinDIN - 28 September 2018 08:39 PM

If that’s a verbatim quote, I’m surprised that Phil Clendeninn hasn’t had a coronary, since he’s such a stickler for proper use of the word “patch” in Yamaha parlance.  :-)

Yeah, it’s verbatim. Source is https://usa.yamaha.com/products/music_production/synthesizers/modx/compatibility.html

anotherscott - 28 September 2018 11:42 PM

5pinDIN - 28 September 2018 08:39 PM

Are you implying that the primary difference between the Motif XF and the Montage is the sequencer? If so, I think you’re being a bit disingenuous.

No, that’s not what I was implying. I was merely recognizing that, if you see Montage as the next generation of Motif, it would be the first time that the top-of-the-line board in the series didn’t have a full workstation-class sequencer. But that’s fine, lots of boards covered on Motifator don’t have that, and with the advances in laptop/tablet DAWS since the first Motif came out, the need for having that stuff in the board continues to dwindle.

OK, but the Montage also omits sampling, another feature found in the top-of-the-line Motifs. Yamaha offloaded sequencing to Cubase, and now sampling to SampleRobot. Pretty soon we’ll just need a (Yamaha?) controller keyboard and computer, and Yamaha will lease us their cloud-based synth on a monthly basis.  ;-)

 

anotherscott -

5pinDIN - 28 September 2018 08:39 PM

After a few OS updates, Yamaha has managed to make the Montage more like a Motif in certain respects. I wonder why…  ;-)

That’s kind of my point. The market said they really wanted the new machine to also be a Motif… and the way I see it, Yamaha made it happen. Despite all the differences, there is a clear Motif heritage to much of the architecture… and now, even more Motif backwards compatibility than the Motif ES and XS had. (ES was not compatible with all the original Motif voices; XS was not compatible with all the ES voices; but Montage can give you all the XF voices, etc.)

There’s also the matter of user memory capacity. With the XF there can be up to 4GB of it, if a pair of the Mutec 2GB modules are installed.

 

anotherscott -

5pinDIN - 28 September 2018 08:39 PM

If that’s a verbatim quote, I’m surprised that Phil Clendeninn hasn’t had a coronary, since he’s such a stickler for proper use of the word “patch” in Yamaha parlance.  :-)

Yeah, it’s verbatim. Source is https://usa.yamaha.com/products/music_production/synthesizers/modx/compatibility.html

Don’t tell B_M.

5pinDIN - 29 September 2018 12:31 AM

OK, but the Montage also omits sampling, another feature found in the top-of-the-line Motifs. Yamaha offloaded sequencing to Cubase, and now sampling to SampleRobot.

Right, sampling is another example of the same thing. That is, yes, it is something every previous flagship “Motif” has had, but it is also a tech that increasingly makes little sense to include in the board, since unlike when the Motif first appeared, most purchasers already own a computer that will be a better sampler anyway. Plus there are already tons of “Motifs” (i.e. boards/modules that have sections in this forum) that don’t sample. So it’s the same point, lack of a previous high end feature in the new high end board shouldn’t stop something from being a kind of “Motif.” The XS didn’t support the hardware plug-in cards that the ES did. Sometimes features get dropped. An exact set of features does not define what is a Motif.

Bottom line is that, the only reason Montage literally isn’t a Motif is that Yamaha chose not to call it one. Arguably I guess that’s the best reason to not deal with it in this forum, but based on the tech included and the market segment it is aimed at (and now the file compatibility), it does seem like the new Motif. I imagine that it starts with MO in order to reference that heritage. (And for that matter, other boards that merely start with MO but are not called Motif *are* covered in this forum.) It seems pretty clear that they would have a section for it here if Yamaha had chosen to market the “Motif XF” replacement as a “Motif Montage.” But they didn’t, and I’m not sure it serves anyone to make that the reason it’s not here. Nor the absence of a sequencer or sampler, as discussed. To me, it s a board with plenty of Motif in its DNA, and a board that people here are likely to be looking at and be interested in.

5pinDIN - 29 September 2018 12:31 AM

Yamaha offloaded sequencing to Cubase, and now sampling to SampleRobot. Pretty soon we’ll just need a (Yamaha?) controller keyboard and computer, and Yamaha will lease us their cloud-based synth on a monthly basis.  ;-)

Well until then, what they’re doing makes sense to me. Take out the things you would never do during a gig, that could be done as well or better at home with you computer.

5pinDIN - 29 September 2018 12:31 AM

There’s also the matter of user memory capacity. With the XF there can be up to 4GB of it, if a pair of the Mutec 2GB modules are installed.

Sure. But lack of compatibility with an unsanctioned third-party upgrade is probably among the least significant of its differences from the previous generation. ;-) Though it does remind me that the move to flash in the XF did have some people complaining that you could no longer install the additional RAM you could put in the XS. This change is akin to that.

anotherscott - 29 September 2018 08:40 AM

I imagine that it starts with MO in order to reference that heritage.

From one of my previous posts, when the Montage was introduced:
-------
Here are some possible names for new Yamaha synths, that could relate to their true nature:

Mockery - Shows disdain for those who hoped for an even better Motif
Money - Acknowledges pricing of certain recent models
Monotony - Has same old presets and not enough user memory
Moody - Sounds randomly change/drift, without player’s control
Morbidity - Makes “sick” noises, might quit in the middle of a gig
Moronic - Just another model that ignores what users actually want
Motionless - Similar to a Montage, but minus the Super Knob
Motley - Has numerous LEDs of many garish colors, all lit at once
Mourner - Cries over what’s happening to Yamaha synths
-------

djuice - 28 September 2018 03:59 PM

+1 :)

-1

And what do you think, what will be the successor of MX serie? (For example MDX?) Maybe, would have been exaggerated an FM-X part in it, not it?

anotherscott - 29 September 2018 08:40 AM

5pinDIN - 29 September 2018 12:31 AM

OK, but the Montage also omits sampling, another feature found in the top-of-the-line Motifs. Yamaha offloaded sequencing to Cubase, and now sampling to SampleRobot.

....... Snip

Bottom line is that, the only reason Montage literally isn’t a Motif is that Yamaha chose not to call it one. Arguably I guess that’s the best reason to not deal with it in this forum, but based on the tech included and the market segment it is aimed at (and now the file compatibility), it does seem like the new Motif. I imagine that it starts with MO in order to reference that heritage. (And for that matter, other boards that merely start with MO but are not called Motif *are* covered in this forum.) It seems pretty clear that they would have a section for it here if Yamaha had chosen to market the “Motif XF” replacement as a “Motif Montage.” But they didn’t, and I’m not sure it serves anyone to make that the reason it’s not here. Nor the absence of a sequencer or sampler, as discussed. To me, it s a board with plenty of Motif in its DNA, and a board that people here are likely to be looking at and be interested in.

5pinDIN - 29 September 2018 12:31 AM

Yamaha offloaded sequencing to Cubase, and now sampling to SampleRobot. Pretty soon we’ll just need a (Yamaha?) controller keyboard and computer, and Yamaha will lease us their cloud-based synth on a monthly basis.  ;-)

Well until then, what they’re doing makes sense to me. Take out the things you would never do during a gig, that could be done as well or better at home with you computer.

5pinDIN - 29 September 2018 12:31 AM

There’s also the matter of user memory capacity. With the XF there can be up to 4GB of it, if a pair of the Mutec 2GB modules are installed.

Sure. But lack of compatibility with an unsanctioned third-party upgrade is probably among the least significant of its differences from the previous generation. ;-) Though it does remind me that the move to flash in the XF did have some people complaining that you could no longer install the additional RAM you could put in the XS. This change is akin to that.

The Montage/ MoDX is not Motif.  It is not an upgrade from a Motif.  A Montage is at best a downgrade from the Motif, and the MODX is certainly a downgrade from the MOX/MOXF.

The Montage/MoDX lacks:

Full Sequencer
Pattern Sequencer
Integrated Sampler (and basic granular synth capability)
Voice Mode
Master Mode
MiX Mode
Song Mode
The Classic Motif Software Interface

Now, some don’t see the need for these features or never used them, or never understood when, where or even how to use them.  But many of us real Motif owners have come to appreciate, understand, depend on and love all of these Motif features.  These features have become intimate, and critical parts of our workflows, performances, and creative efforts.

The Montage/MODX and its FM synth, Super Knob, and Touch screen is not even close to a replacement for a Motif/MOXF let alone an upgrade from a Motif/MOXF.  And the fact that the MODX makes the touch screen mandatory by removing quick buttons makes it even less attractive or even possible replacement for the MOXF.

The Montage/MODX speak a very different user interface language and presents different performance metaphors than the Motif family.  I adore my Motif User Interface. IMO the cash register looking touch screen of the Montage family is very unattractive.

@anotherscott.  The Montage/MODX are radically different animals than the Motif family.

Further when considering the real functional trade offs between the
Motif Family and the Montage Family consider this:

In both cases Yamaha/Steinberg offers Cubase as the software complement to their hardware synth technology.  So from their point of view Cubase is an implied if not required component of both families.

With that said the Motif owner can quickly get a FM Softsynth add it to Cubase and create whatever FM sounds they want, and simply use the integrated sampler of the Motif to Sample those sounds and then add them to its library of voices.  Or get FM sounds from the many many sample libraries out there.  Also the Motif’s CTLSET can be programmed to allow a single controller to manipulate multiple parameters thus getting the basic Montage feature set all without giving up:

The Full Sequencer
Pattern Sequencer
Integrated Sampler
Master Mode,
Voice Mode, etc.

On the other hand even with Cubase Montage/MODX users will have to work a lot harder to recreate Motif’s Pattern Sequencer, and the basic Granular Synthesis capabilities that are available using Motif’s Integrated Sampler and Sampler Jobs! The 16 track full sequencer is simply a must for all of us composers who need and prefer hardware sequencing.

No my friend the MODX is not an upgrade from a MOXF.  It’s a down grade on a good day!  The Montage is certainly not an upgrade from the Motif.  Its not even a valid replacement.

The Montage/MODX are very nice performance synthesizers. In terms of memory, channel capability, and some computer interface features they have an advantage over the Motif Family.  But Montage/MODX are at best a subset of the Motif/MoxF family of workstation synthesizers which are both workstation synthesizers and performance synthesizers.

It will be interesting to see if Montage/MODX make it to their 10th anniversary before being discontinued.

anotherscott - 29 September 2018 08:40 AM

5pinDIN - 29 September 2018 12:31 AM

There’s also the matter of user memory capacity. With the XF there can be up to 4GB of it, if a pair of the Mutec 2GB modules are installed.

Sure. But lack of compatibility with an unsanctioned third-party upgrade is probably among the least significant of its differences from the previous generation.

If you think that 2GB flash modules are not considered legitimate by Yamaha, please see the attached capture from the Yamaha factory XF Service Manual. That capacity was obviously planned all along, although Yamaha apparently decided to not release their own version.

Click thumbnail to see full-size image

I had the opportunity to choose between a brand new Montage or a brand new Motif XF. I chose the XF. Four things truly differentiate the Montage from the Motif XF for my usage case.

1. No sequencer other than a quick “scratchpad”, which means that even to record a quick multi-track idea, you need to have a computer with you all the time. Some of us don’t have the luxury of having three computers (one family, work, studio).

2. No sampling.

3. Because the Montage is always in “Performance Mode” essentially, somehow one piano sound can take up eight “parts” of your 16 part performance.

4. And this one to me is the most important omission of all. Weak MIDI implementation. You can’t set multiple sounds to the same midi channel to be played by an external keyboard while having a separate set of sounds on the main keyboard. Very poor in my opinion.

As I said in an email to Yamaha a few years ago, in my opinion, I think that if they released the Montage as sort of an upgraded stage piano and also had a Motif-successor as the flagship with the features listed above plus or minus the Montage goodies, everything would be fine.

From a sound standpoint, the Montage sounds a bit better to me, even on the XF voices, FM-X is nice, and seamless transitions are great, but it’s not worth the trade-off. I hope their touch screens are reliable for the people who did buy them.

I rest my case.

P.S. When I contacted Yamaha a few years ago about a Motif replacement, they recommended the MOXF as the best option. That didn’t have everything either. But with that now gone, and the MODX stepping in as a somewhat stripped-down Montage, there is nothing in their “pro” line left if you want the stuff listed above. You have to buy a Genos. Good luck if you want 88 keys.