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Viewing topic "MoXF6 Pianos all sound muddy and muted - velocity problem"

     
Posted on: May 21, 2018 @ 06:38 AM
hernejj
Total Posts:  10
Joined  05-21-2018
status: Newcomer

I’m having trouble with a brand new Yamaha MoXF6 keyboard. All of the default piano sounds are muddy and muted. I am only able to make them sound good if I set the velocity response to Fixed with a velocity setting of 127. This is not an acceptable solution because I then must completely give up any kind of dynamic velocity.

If I set the keyboard’s velocity response setting to anything else (normal, soft, hard or wide) then every sounds muddy again unless I hit the keys so hard I feel like I’m going to break the keyboard.

I’ve read a few forum posts from users of other Yamaha boards with similar issues. I suspect some of us must have defective boards??

Has anyone managed to find a solution for this problem? I’ve been working on trying to solve it for a week and I’m almost ready to sell the thing if I can’t make it work right.

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Posted on: May 21, 2018 @ 07:06 AM
5pinDIN
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Welcome to the forum.

Most users who have your complaint find the “soft” setting to be sufficient. Since that doesn’t resolve things for you, a possible “solution” might be:
http://www.midisolutions.com/prodvel.htm

Note that the MOXF can’t supply power via MIDI to the device, and a separate power supply would be required.

There’s also some software available to convert MIDI velocity which you might want to search for.

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Posted on: May 21, 2018 @ 07:46 AM
hernejj
Total Posts:  10
Joined  05-21-2018
status: Newcomer
5pinDIN - 21 May 2018 07:06 AM

Welcome to the forum.

Most users who have your complaint find the “soft” setting to be sufficient. Since that doesn’t resolve things for you, a possible “solution” might be:
http://www.midisolutions.com/prodvel.htm

Note that the MOXF can’t supply power via MIDI to the device, and a separate power supply would be required.

There’s also some software available to convert MIDI velocity which you might want to search for.

Hi 5pin, Thank you for the info. I suspect your suggestion would work around the issue but I simply cannot fathom the thought of purchasing another expensive device, routing midi out, and then back in to a $1,100 instrument just to work around what is either a design flaw or some type of malfunction.

It has to be a malfunction right? If this were common to all MOXF6 units then no one would be able to use this keyboard. I’m not being gentle on the thing and even with “soft” I still cannot produce a decent sound. This is not a matter of technique or preference. I wish I knew someone with a MoXF6 and I could go try theirs out just to get a comparison.

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Posted on: May 21, 2018 @ 08:31 AM
philwoodmusic
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hernejj - 21 May 2018 07:46 AM

It has to be a malfunction right? If this were common to all MOXF6 units then no one would be able to use this keyboard.

It does sound that way. Especially if it is just pianos, because some of them are super bright, and I’d never describe Full Concert Grand as especially dull or muddy.

A fixed velocity of 127 to sound good is extreme.

I always play the soft velocity curve and I get a nice bright and exciting sound and that’s on a Motif XF 7 and a MOX6, with the MOX6 being very closely related to your MOXF6.  I’d only set it to normal if I was using something with a weighted action to play it via MIDI.

Just one little thing, and I don’t mean to sound patronising:

When you change to a different velocity curve, you need to press STORE, otherwise it will default back to Normal when you power off and on again.

The idea that you might have chosen another velocity curve and almost immediately powered off crossed my mind, and it is a long shot, but worth a look.  I’m probably wrong in your case, but it’s something you can check off to say you’re aware of it.

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Posted on: May 21, 2018 @ 08:43 AM
hernejj
Total Posts:  10
Joined  05-21-2018
status: Newcomer
philwoodmusic - 21 May 2018 08:31 AM

Just one little thing, and I don’t mean to sound patronising:

When you change to a different velocity curve, you need to press STORE, otherwise it will default back to Normal when you power off and on again.

The idea that you might have chosen another velocity curve and almost immediately powered off crossed my mind, and it is a long shot, but worth a look.  I’m probably wrong in your case, but it’s something you can check off to say you’re aware of it.

This is not my issue. I was not aware of having to press store, but I’ve played around trying to fix it for hours without powering off. Thanks for pointing it out though :) I’ll be sure to remember that tip for the future.

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Posted on: May 22, 2018 @ 06:04 AM
hernejj
Total Posts:  10
Joined  05-21-2018
status: Newcomer

I’ve made some progress here. Despite my initial thoughts I don’t think this actually has anything to do with velocity at all.

My normal setup that sounds muddy:
MoXF 1/4” Headphone out jack --> 1/4” to 2.5mm adapter --> 2.5mm cable --> Klipsch stereo amp --> Polk RTI bookshelf speakers & Klipsch 8” subwoofer

New setup that eliminates most (all?) of the muddiness:
MoXF 1/4” Headphone out jack --> 1/4” to 2.5mm adapter --> Sennheiser HD380 Pro headphones

I suspect using the headphone output to drive my amp is what is causing the problem… I have proper cabling on order so I can try feeding the amp from MoXF’s line out instead of the headphone jack.

One other thing that helped was loading some freely available voice libraries (flash board NOT required)
http://bricksite.com/perskovgaard/yamaha-synth-voices

This guy’s piano voices are truly amazing. Many are light years cleaner sounding than the stock Yamaha voices IMHO. It also adds a ton of variety and uniqueness to your piano collection. I highly recommend everyone try these if you have compatible hardware (Montage, Motif, MO, MOX, MOXF).

So between these new voices and switching to headphones I am very happy with the sound I am getting out of my MoXF6. Now I just need to replicate the same sound through speakers so I can annoy the rest of my family when I play :-D!

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Posted on: May 22, 2018 @ 07:37 AM
5pinDIN
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The MOXF Voices are programmed to sound good on a system having a relatively flat frequency response. The Sennheiser HD380 Pro headphones meet that need fairly well. Although a monitor speaker system is preferred, there’s nothing wrong with using a properly set up home audio system, presuming the MOXF is connected to a line-level input. However, if the sound deteriorates on your Klipsch/Polk system, it’s likely not sufficiently flat. That’s true of many home audio installations. Room acoustics, speaker placement, subwoofer level setting, etc., can all play a part.

If you like the way your audio system sounds when playing commercial prerecorded material, and don’t want to change anything about it, then my suggestion would be to use the MOXF’s built-in equalizer functions to modify the frequency response.

See the MOXF Reference Manual (http://download.yamaha.com/file/60478), [F2]VOICE, [SF2]MEQ (Master EQ) on page 143 and [F3]MEQ (Master EQ) on page 61.

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Posted on: May 25, 2018 @ 01:58 AM
hernejj
Total Posts:  10
Joined  05-21-2018
status: Newcomer

Whatever the problem is, I’ve narrowed it down to my Klipsch amp.

MoXF line-out -> Klipsch Amp -> Polk Rti speakers = muddy sound
MoXF line-out -> Klipsch Amp -> HD380 headphones = muddy sound

MoXF headphone-out -> HD380 headphones = Good sound
MoXF line-out -> Yamaha PSR-EW400 line in = Good sound

So I’m able to get good sound in every scenario except where my Klipsch amp is used.  The odd thing is this amp sounds fine when being fed from my computer. If the amp were the only issue here then I’d expect recordings of the MOXF (from Youtube videos) to exhibit a similar muddiness but they do not.

I might try the following tests to see what happens…
MoXF line-out -> PC Line In -> Klipsch Amp -> Polk Rti speakers
MoXF line-out -> Onkyo Amp -> Polk Rti floor-standing speakers
MoXF USB-out -> pc -> Klipsch Amp -> Polk Rti speakers

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Posted on: May 25, 2018 @ 03:04 AM
5pinDIN
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hernejj - 25 May 2018 01:58 AM

Whatever the problem is, I’ve narrowed it down to my Klipsch amp.[...]

Which model Klipsch amp?
Which input on it?

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Posted on: May 25, 2018 @ 05:53 AM
hernejj
Total Posts:  10
Joined  05-21-2018
status: Newcomer
5pinDIN - 25 May 2018 03:04 AM

Which model Klipsch amp?
Which input on it?

https://www.klipsch.com/products/klipsch-promedia-2-1-computer-speakers

It is the amp that comes with these speakers. It can be seen at the above URL attached to the right speaker, but I’ve detached it and use it connected to the subwoofer and my Polk Rti A1 bookshelf speakers.

The input is a hard-wired 2.5mm male stereo-mini connector. I suspect it is line-in as it is meant to be fed from a typical pc sound card.

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Posted on: May 25, 2018 @ 07:04 AM
5pinDIN
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hernejj - 25 May 2018 05:53 AM

https://www.klipsch.com/products/klipsch-promedia-2-1-computer-speakers

It is the amp that comes with these speakers. It can be seen at the above URL attached to the right speaker, but I’ve detached it and use it connected to the subwoofer and my Polk Rti A1 bookshelf speakers.

The input is a hard-wired 2.5mm male stereo-mini connector. I suspect it is line-in as it is meant to be fed from a typical pc sound card.

I was hoping for some specs (input impedance, drive level requirements, etc.) in order to determine what the problem might be. I suggest that if you want to continue using home audio equipment, try using a quality amplifier.

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Posted on: May 25, 2018 @ 07:45 AM
hernejj
Total Posts:  10
Joined  05-21-2018
status: Newcomer
5pinDIN - 25 May 2018 07:04 AM

I was hoping for some specs (input impedance, drive level requirements, etc.) in order to determine what the problem might be. I suggest that if you want to continue using home audio equipment, try using a quality amplifier.

HAPPILY :) I’m on the hunt for something…

- small-ish / stereo (not a massive home theater amp)
- Class-D/B/A/A+B/H, I guess class-T *might* be ok for this application..?
- 20 W ought to be more than enough ... That should give me 10-15 W of very clean power
- $50 - $100 price range would be nice.

Any recommendations?

I can find some matching products from Dayton, Lepai, and Pyle. But I’m having trouble finding anything from more reputable manufacturers. I’m not against Dayton, Lepai, and Pyle but I’d like to hear from some people that have used them as I have no experience with them.

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Posted on: May 26, 2018 @ 06:29 AM
hernejj
Total Posts:  10
Joined  05-21-2018
status: Newcomer

I’ve nailed this problem. The Klipch Pro Media 2.1 amplifier applies a fairly large bass boost to the incoming signal. This is probably done either to compensate for a dip in the associated subwoofer’s frequency response or just to “make it sound better”. I can appreciate their reasoning but it would have been nice to have been given a button to disable that. This was not a cheap speaker set after all :).

I figured this out by recording my MOXF via the USB interface and playing the recording back through my Klipsch amp. With both my Polk speakers and my Sennheiser headphones the sound was muddy and boomy primarily when playing lower notes. When I listened to the very same recording by plugging my Sennheisers directly into the computer everything was crystal clear.

I’m guessing I never noticed this when I was listening to other people play the MoXF via Youtube because they were never really focusing on the lower notes of the keyboard. I recently discovered that this was the primary area where I was dissatisfied with the sound.

Now that I know what the problem is, I guess my easy solution is to replace the amp with something a bit more neutral.

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