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Viewing topic "The Motif Super Knob????"

     
Posted on: August 07, 2017 @ 12:55 PM
lastmonk
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There’s no super knob on the Motif right?

Okay, so I’m messing around with voice layering in mixing mode.  i.e.  assigning multiple voices to the same channel in mixing mode so that I can get more than 4 layered.  But, before I went to mixing mode, I set the CTLSET on several of them.  e.g assigning PB to CLFO-D3 on one voice and PB to to INSA parameter on other and so forth.

Originally I did not set these voices to be layered in mixing mode, but today I was in a mixing mode kind of mood, anyway, after I got 6 voices setup as a mixing voice, I noticed what seemed to be the PB, AS1 or my FC controlling multiple parameters at the same time, with one push of the wheel, turn of the know, press of the foot.  LOL.

So, just playing around I soloed them to see if their effects were still on, and then played them together while messing with the controllers and voila!  One assignable controller, effectively and simultaneously controlling different parameters, with different depths, speeds, etc.

Is it my imagination, maybe I’m high on sumptin at the moment and I’m not hearing what I think I’m hearing and I’m not doing what I think I’m doing LOL.  But simultaneously controlling multiple parameters with a single controller isn’t that the Montage Super Knob’s claim to fame?  The big flashing knob’s major selling feature....

I don’t have a Montage, and I know there’s probably a lot more to it.  But.....

In a Mixing voice, I set up I do seem to be able to simultaneously control multiple parameters with a single controller (e.g. PB controlling an INSA and LFO effect at the same time.  Do I have it wrong?  Am I mis understanding sumptin?

Or is it the case that no one said that you couldn’t simultaneously control multiple parameters on the Motif with a single controller.  LOL.

I dunno.,,.  maybe a little too much of this and that today.  But just to make sure., I thought I ask the question here.  Is it just my imagination or does layering voices in Mixing mode give you the capability of using a single controller to simultaneously control multiple parameters?

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Posted on: August 07, 2017 @ 02:21 PM
5pinDIN
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lastmonk - 07 August 2017 12:55 PM

[...]Or is it the case that no one said that you couldn’t simultaneously control multiple parameters on the Motif with a single controller.  LOL.

No one said what you’re doing couldn’t be done. :-)

Congratulations for doing it!

 

lastmonk -

I dunno.,,.  maybe a little too much of this and that today.  But just to make sure., I thought I ask the question here.  Is it just my imagination or does layering voices in Mixing mode give you the capability of using a single controller to simultaneously control multiple parameters?

Multiple Parameters can be simultaneously controlled by a single controller even in Voice mode. If you’d like a little demo, download the file I attached here…
http://www.motifator.com/index.php/forum/viewthread/478340/
...load USER1 Voice A02 to any User Voice location, and see what the MW does. Take a look at the Controller Set to see how the Parameters of various Elements can be changed with the MW position.

So, it’s not your imagination that such things can be done. However, it does take some imagination to do them. Hopefully you’ve encouraged more Motif users to try.

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Posted on: August 07, 2017 @ 02:33 PM
someclevername
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Joined  11-06-2011
status: Regular

Super knob is just FC2 on top of all the keyboard! It’s a bit more than assigning parameters the way the motif does but it feels like it’s mostly marketing.

On another note of montage stuff the motif can almost do: The only thing stopping the motif from seamless transitions is a second set of system effects and software. It already has enough power in the voice engine and 8 insert effects. As a software engineer I’d love to have a crack at implementing this in the keyboard!

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Posted on: August 07, 2017 @ 03:50 PM
richie1027
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Appreciate this post Lastmonk.....something different to fiddle around with..

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Posted on: August 07, 2017 @ 04:33 PM
lastmonk
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someclevername - 07 August 2017 02:33 PM

Super knob is just FC2 on top of all the keyboard! It’s a bit more than assigning parameters the way the motif does but it feels like it’s mostly marketing.

On another note of montage stuff the motif can almost do: The only thing stopping the motif from seamless transitions is a second set of system effects and software. It already has enough power in the voice engine and 8 insert effects. As a software engineer I’d love to have a crack at implementing this in the keyboard!

It seems like 5pinDin had an interesting post about transitions on the Motif here:

http://www.motifator.com/index.php/forum/viewthread/476675/

I am unapologetic about being a Motif fanboy, and I think that even with all we’ve learned that the Motif can do, we are just scratching the surface.  Certainly there are some features that Montage has that Motif doesn’t have, but then there are features that Motif has that Montage doesn’t have :-)

I dunno, the more I learn about the Motif and the more I explore, I’m starting to feel if you put the extra effort in to it, it can do just about anything you would ever practically need it to do.  I suspect between the Mixing mode, Master Mode and Arpeggiators there are lots of hidden nuggets.

I’m also wondering whether Montage has just created short cuts for some of the capabilities of the Motif.  Maybe the Motif was just too much functionally, and Yamaha felt they needed to streamline it, and simplify it, remove features that they imagined were unnecessary :-(

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Posted on: August 12, 2017 @ 07:16 AM
meatballfulton
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When a Montage finally showed up at Guitar Center, I tried it out. They had FC2 hooked up and as I moved it, the Super Knob LEDs activated same as actually turning the knob. That said, I think the controller set implementation on Montage has been expanded from what Motifs have always had.

Controller sets and Remote Mode are the two best kept secrets of the Motif. I just demonstrated them both the other day to a guy who came looking to buy my XF and he was dumbfounded. Then I showed him moving files over Ethernet and recording audio to a thumb drive ;)

PS maybe the weirdest thing about Montage was that it still has most of the voices from the XF on board, including all my favorites from the factory presets.

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Posted on: August 12, 2017 @ 12:30 PM
richie1027
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I’d love to see a video of Controller sets & Remote Mode operations.  Those are two I’ve never explored.

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Posted on: August 13, 2017 @ 05:18 AM
meatballfulton
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Blake Angelos demos using the VST Editor and Remote Mode.

Remote works with Cubase, Logic, Digital Performer, Sonar or Pro Tools, and with less functionality other DAWs like Ableton Live (what I use). I’ve been using Remote since when I owned an ES...about 7-8 years now.

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Posted on: August 16, 2017 @ 04:35 PM
lastmonk
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meatballfulton - 12 August 2017 07:16 AM

When a Montage finally showed up at Guitar Center, I tried it out. They had FC2 hooked up and as I moved it, the Super Knob LEDs activated same as actually turning the knob. That said, I think the controller set implementation on Montage has been expanded from what Motifs have always had.

Controller sets and Remote Mode are the two best kept secrets of the Motif. I just demonstrated them both the other day to a guy who came looking to buy my XF and he was dumbfounded. Then I showed him moving files over Ethernet and recording audio to a thumb drive ;)

PS maybe the weirdest thing about Montage was that it still has most of the voices from the XF on board, including all my favorites from the factory presets.

As I dig deeper in to the Motif, I find a lot of the functionality of the Super Knob that is being hyped for the Montage can be reasonably approximated on the Motif.  Yes the Montage adds another controller, but truth be told I suspect that many Motif owners don’t take full advantage of the controllers they already had, Yamaha adding another knob, to AF1, AF2, AS1, AS2, FC1, FC2, PB, MW, RB, might be adding water to a cup that is already full.

Seamlessly moving between multiple sounds can also be done using MW, and assigning different elements in a voice to different wav forms and then connecting the CTLSETs accordingly.  There are so many really nice transitions and articulations that can be made using:

Mixing Mode, CTLSETs, VelocityLimit, VelCrossFade,and NoteLimit in conjunction with INSA, INSB effects that you’d have to push some very strange limits to need the additional controller you get on the Montage.

In a live setting there are practical limits to the number of controllers you would actually use.  I might be cynical here, but its probably the case that if you couldn’t get it done with AF1, AF2, AS1, AS2, FC1, FC2, PB, MW, or RB, you probably would come up short with the super knob as well.

I’m all for more articulation, I guess once I grow out of the 7 or 8 controllers on Motif, maybe the super knob will be more attractive LOL.

Ditto for FM synthesis on the Montage LOL!  Between the Multiitimbral possibilities in Mixing Mode, thousands of high quality samples and the full subtractive synthesis capability , oscillators, LFOs PEGs, FEGs, AEGs of the Motif.  I would have to go through a hell of a lot of sound before I found myself reaching for FM synthesis.  Of course that’s a very subjective observation.

Yes there are things there are sounds that you can more easily get at with FM synthesis, than you could with subtractive synthesis.  But that usually assumes one is starting from scratch, But given the wealth of source sounds on the Motif, subtractive synthesis would be sufficient for all but the most fringe applications.

If you can have both FM synthesis and subtractive synthesis in one instrument, I suppose that’s a good idea, but how necessary is it really?  Especially in this particular case.

I’m really looking forward to real live performances that do something with the Montage that is dramatically different than what the musician was already doing with Motif.

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Posted on: August 17, 2017 @ 05:28 AM
meatballfulton
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lastmonk - 16 August 2017 04:35 PM

If you can have both FM synthesis and subtractive synthesis in one instrument, I suppose that’s a good idea, but how necessary is it really? 

It depends, as always, on what type of sounds you are after.

The way FM (and additive) synthsis works is totally opposite of subtractive. Rather than using complex waves and filtering out harmonics, you start with simple waves and add harmonics. You can sample FM sounds and use them in a Motif, but they will always be more static than in an FM synth where you can apply LFOs, EGs and real time controllers to the synthesis engine.

For users who do not create lots of sounds from scratch it probably is unimportant. Yamaha offered multiple synth engines in the Motif Classic and ES with the PLG boards. Having owned an ES and the AN, DX nd VL boards I can tell you that they could make lots of sounds the ES itself could not. Korg offers them today in the Kronos. Multiple synth engines in a single instrument does not seem to be that popular in the overall synth market. The big deal with Montage (and to alesser extent Kronos) is that it brought FM back in a professional hardware instrument.

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Posted on: August 17, 2017 @ 11:35 AM
lastmonk
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meatballfulton - 17 August 2017 05:28 AM
lastmonk - 16 August 2017 04:35 PM

If you can have both FM synthesis and subtractive synthesis in one instrument, I suppose that’s a good idea, but how necessary is it really? 

It depends, as always, on what type of sounds you are after.

The way FM (and additive) synthsis works is totally opposite of subtractive. Rather than using complex waves and filtering out harmonics, you start with simple waves and add harmonics. You can sample FM sounds and use them in a Motif, but they will always be more static than in an FM synth where you can apply LFOs, EGs and real time controllers to the synthesis engine.

For users who do not create lots of sounds from scratch it probably is unimportant. Yamaha offered multiple synth engines in the Motif Classic and ES with the PLG boards. Having owned an ES and the AN, DX nd VL boards I can tell you that they could make lots of sounds the ES itself could not. Korg offers them today in the Kronos. Multiple synth engines in a single instrument does not seem to be that popular in the overall synth market. The big deal with Montage (and to alesser extent Kronos) is that it brought FM back in a professional hardware instrument.

Its all fun, its all good!  meatballfulton I’m not going to pretend to be an expert on synthesis , but as I understand it., if you start at 0 and move towards 5 (additive), or start at 10 and move backward towards 5 (subtractive), you can kind-a get to the same place.  Sure, I think certain sounds are easier to synthesize using FM, and certain sounds are easier to synthesize using subtractive synthesis.  But I’m guessin (I could be totally wrong), given these high end synthesizers with all the capabilities whether it be an FM driven Montage or Subtractive driven Motif, with persistence, imagination, and knowledge, you could probably produce roughly the same sounds on both, or at least close enough to not be easily distinguished by the average listening audience :-)

Its probably a matter of the amount of work you want to do up from FM or down from Subtractive.

And in the case of the Motif we have thousands of sophisticated sounds to start the subtractive process with.  I imagine if you add FM to that scenario you may get to certain sounds faster, or easier, but I dunno, I’m not quite convinced that without FM you wouldn’t eventually get to the sound you want if you put enough effort in.  But again, I’m not an expert on synthesis.  I do know with PEG,AEG,FEG, HPFs, LPFs, LFO’s, 8 element voices, and effects processing on the Motif in combination with the thousands of samples on board that FM (at least for me) would be a luxury that I would have much rather been spent on giving me 256 note polyphony in the Motif, or 8-16 gig of sequencer ram, with perhaps licensing that would allow me to save my audio to .mp3

Its all good though, for those of us that have the money to buy both, the more the merrier!

But I guess the question is if the goal is a certain certain combination of pitch, frequency, amplitude, and harmonics, am I more restricted if use additive vs subtractive?  am I better off if I use additive + subtractive?  does it really make a difference?

At the price of either a Montage or a Motif , its an expensive experiment LOL

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