I am wondering about people’s experiences using a Motif XF (or Motif family) as a synthesizer. … I am on a journey exploring what it can do. Sometimes I get frustrated, and then sometimes I get enthusiastic about it.

I find it is best to judge it based on what it is, and what it can do. I am still discovering what it can do; and how it does it.

Sometimes I want to avoid AWM2 all together. And sometimes I employ it. Each for both positive & negative results. As I proceed, I get better at it. At its various facets. And then bringing them in.

I have the same positive & negative responses to its FSX action. On one hand, it’s amazing. On another, I have issues with it.

All in all, I’ve put in a lot of effort into getting to know it—sometimes at the expense of the original goal of creating music. But, I feel sometimes I have to go through a season of getting a better handle on it; and I seem to either go through one phase or the other. (Making music with it; learning it. Or putting it aside for a while.)

Today I had positive results, beginning with basic analog waveforms. My results are some compelling combination of analog-feel, but digital- in a good way. Not, FM, of course; but still pretty expressive. And without too static of a feel. It was definitely emotive.

Yeah, these are just words. … At one point, I’ll post audio. In the meantime, I’m curious to hear your experiences on using a Motif as a synth. (For the other than the add-on cards for the ES.)
Did you get good results? Did you get new sonic territories that are similar but different from what an analog synth could do? Are you programming your own sounds? Are you focusing more on AWM2 or on the sample front, or a balance of the two?

I know this is all pretty vague. Just wanted to get a dialog on this topic going. Looking for some forum partners on this journey.

Thanks,

dsetto

One thing that was very cool was to record audio to a usb thumb drive. I wonder if this this part of what I like about the simple recordings I made today. It’s nice to not hear not even a drop of noise.

I find some similarities in my Motif XF journey as yours. I bought it just to help me express that creative side that words and visual art seemed to lack. I have found the Motif to be both frustrating at times, yet profoundly satisfying when I finally create a sound/performance that perhaps no one else in the universe ever heard (I know, I’m reaching here). I tried out an arranger, The Yamaha PSR970. before I bought the Motif XF, but discovered the PSR seemed too “automated” and I failed to aspire to the level of creativity that the Motif possesses. Bottom line, as a rank ‘putter-around’ type amateur keyboarder, this synth has so many levels of understanding, so many ways one can get lost then found with it, it almost takes on a sentient life. When I sit down in front of those black and white toothy looking keys now, they appear to smile at me rather then grimace when I start playing. This machine soars my musical being as far as my own mind will carry me. And when I need extra help to overcome some technical issue, I know I can rely on the gracious assistance of the forum gurus like 5pinDIN and others. All in all, this Motif XF is a blast, and I predict will be a way for my spirit to soar for years to come.

Good to see a wordsmith encountering the XF.

Today’s observations; very well could be repeats.

I’m going try to characterize Motif XF as synthesizer based on my current assessment, and heavily influenced by the sound I am listening to.

I definitely have to remind myself, repeatedly: this is not an analog synthesizer. this will not be an analog synthesizer.
This is confusing to me, when I am playing back analog synthesizer waveforms, and a digital version of basic analog synthesizer sound shaping.

There is a cold, pristine sheen present. But, it’s not a bad thing - when I’m looking at it in the right space.

---
The other thing about Motif XF as synthesizer is: to get to a certain level of command of its capabilities, is very slow - for me. I would expect the process of arriving at satisfying sounds with a deep or moderately deep polyphonic analog synthesizer is much quicker. And level of control, of moving from F to 27 is much quicker. With the XF’s deep & full ways, it is slower- at first, for me.

I’ve edited the title:

“Motif XF as synthesizer - is it worth it?”

--
That is my real question. It is rhetorical - in some ways - because I’ve gone far enough where I will carry out to find out for myself. I am afraid that I will finally purchase a deep polyphonic analog synthesizer, and say, “nah, it wasn’t worth it.”

But, the thing is: I already know that it is a foolish thing to try to play the analog synthesizer game with the XF. When it can play a different game. And different games. … But, as I still don’t have that polyphonic analog synthesizer, for now, it’s the game I want to play most. And, because the FSX action is best suited for synthesizer.

…
I don’t get a polyphonic analog synthesizer yet because:
- I prefer to spend money wisely
- with the XF7, the need for a synth is murky
- waiting for a DSI 61 key. unless the deepmind sets that aside
- i want to spend my synth programming time getting a better command of my current polyphonic synthesizer instrument, the XF7
- i think splits could be cool. i think 26-40 splits are super cool.
- i am looking forward to combining lands of sounds- in one board, with sequencer potential
- i think that on certain fronts, with my xf7, i can do analog synthesizer sounds better than with a single analog synthesizer costing the same, and taking up the same space. (not on all fronts; and not without the time cost. but, it’s what i’ve got right now, and not planning to move from it at this time.)

--
and there’s always that FSX action. i love it & hate it.

____
Ok, thanks for your indulgence. Figured we can also talk about Motif adventures other than technical support. And right now, this is what’s on my mind. Hoping to find others who have succeeded or given up on trying to use a Motif as a synthesizer.

dsetto - 08 December 2016 02:03 PM

[...] Ok, thanks for your indulgence. Figured we can also talk about Motif adventures other than technical support. And right now, this is what’s on my mind. Hoping to find others who have succeeded or given up on trying to use a Motif as a synthesizer.

“Technical support” seems to be a fairly major focus of the Motifator forums, but other areas certainly deserve discussion.

I avoided participating in this thread until now because I had hoped that more users would offer their opinions/insight. Perhaps the limited response (but thanks, music2345) after more than 220 views (until now) indicates that most users aren’t trying to emulate analog synthesis, or maybe folks have tried but haven’t been able to accomplish what they wanted to.

While I don’t think the strongest point of a Motif is sounding and/or behaving like an analog synth, I do believe with proper programming the result can be reasonable.

What are you trying to emulate? “Analog” can mean different things - are we talking about a Polymoog, or one of the recent VA (Virtual Analog a/k/a Analog Modeling) models? Is it basic sounds you’re trying realize, real-time control with knobs, etc.? Or is it that you want the oscillators to drift?

The XF ROM has a somewhat limited collection of basic waveforms, although it isn’t hard to find other samples on the net. Those basic sounds can be shaped by envelopes, filtering, resonance, etc., and further modified by real-time controllers such as PB, MW, assignable knobs.

If you’ve been unable to create a particular sound to your satisfaction, it might be interesting for other members to try to improve on your efforts. If you’re willing to post an “All Voice” file with one or more of your creations, and describe what aspect(s) you’d like to improve, perhaps we can all get in on this. That could definitely be more than “tech support”.

hi everyone
even though i don’t have a motif xf i do have a motif xs
to me it seem that ones have no longer help us to get more out of what we taught ourselves .Im pretty sure that if we help each other to get the most out of our motifs

Ill give you a example own my motifxs the presets are very dirty sounds you may not think so.until you play more than one instrument together.to many frequency jamming together so what happens you get muffle sounds that shouldnt be there.Another thing forget about trying to clean up the presets just using the motif xs an probably the xf internal EQS it will never happen. but there are a couple of things you can do.

first go to utility mode turn down the tone generator to 45.This will take out some distortion.
2 hopefully you have a good daw system such as cubase 7.5
3 record directly to cubase using m1-m16 mono in song mixing mode tracks 1-16 or audio tracks in cubase ill leave it hear for now maybe others have different thoughts that is useful…

bythenumbers - 08 December 2016 06:11 PM

hi everyone
even though i don’t have a motif xf i do have a motif xs
to me it seem that ones have no longer help us to get more out of what we taught ourselves .Im pretty sure that if we help each other to get the most out of our motifs

I agree about sharing information, and much concerning the XS can be applied to the XF. I’ll address the rest of your post, but really it’s off-topic for this thread…

 

bythenumbers -

Ill give you a example own my motifxs the presets are very dirty sounds you may not think so.until you play more than one instrument together.to many frequency jamming together so what happens you get muffle sounds that shouldnt be there.

Even in a real band or orchestra, different instruments have frequency ranges that overlap each other, and can compete at certain frequencies. Also, there will be beat tones (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beat_(acoustics)), which can sometimes be annoying. These things can be noticed when mixing sounds in the Motif as well.

 

bythenumbers -

Another thing forget about trying to clean up the presets just using the motif xs an probably the xf internal EQS it will never happen. but there are a couple of things you can do.

first go to utility mode turn down the tone generator to 45.This will take out some distortion.
2 hopefully you have a good daw system such as cubase 7.5
3 record directly to cubase using m1-m16 mono in song mixing mode tracks 1-16 or audio tracks in cubase ill leave it hear for now maybe others have different thoughts that is useful…

As long as Voice/Part Volume levels are kept within reason, it shouldn’t be necessary to “turn down the tone generator to 45”. Perhaps your XS has a problem - for example, leaky output muting transistors can cause distortion which might be less obvious at lowered tone generator level.

Does the distortion you’re experiencing change with the position of the MASTER VOLUME slider? Is it noticeable at the PHONES output?

See http://www.motifator.com/index.php/forum/viewthread/475145/

Please start another thread in the XS forum if you want to discuss something other than the original topic. Thanks.

googled.
found this, (from a few years ago, but in case its of any help):

http://www.harmonycentral.com/forum/forum/Keyboards/acapella-18/318864-

and this is the link that a forum member posted at that forum:

http://pc3nerd.blogspot.com/2010/12/why-pc3.html

I have not tried to create any Voices with my XF.
that said, one of my fav presets is Opening.
I can make the coolest sounds with it.
it drove me crazy for years, until Bad Mister pointed out to me, that it is a mono Synth Voice (I think thats what its called).
what makes me unhappy, is how when I am really wailing away, the sound distorts and drop outs.
well, thats normal. for this Voice.
its not meant to be played the way that I play it.
if only it could, the thing can sound like a space ship taking off.
it is quite extraordinary, beautiful, magical.
takes me away, transcendent.
hope I can someday, find a way to get it to play how I want to, or make my own Voice.

The technical support of the Motif on these forums is vital to the user. This forum was a positive factor when I bought my XF.

5pinDIN - 08 December 2016 03:56 PM

What are you trying to emulate?…

That said, I enjoy considering it in context, historically, to synthesizers. It clearly lacks in many regards. It also serves the currently unique position of having 4gb of flash, 128mb sdram, tied to a powerful waveform playback mechanism; and a basic & often useful sound sculpting engine. (Also tied to a sampler, sequencer, arpeggiator, & in-house stereo recorder.) (When my uses of the sound sculpting engine - AWM2 - end up in bland, non-compelling results, I deem it “less useful”.

For context, while I don’t have a deep polyphonic analog synthesizer, I do have a pretty deep monophonic and an older, simple polyphonic that I’m not spending much time on. My sense of what a polyphonic synthesizer can do is based on what I have, what I’ve heard, & what I’ve read. Therefore, my intentions for emulation may be vague; at least they’re conceptual.

I think I have a decent sense of the basics of what the Motif can do - by having done examples, and by having a sense of the concepts. I know a lot of surprises await.

5pinDIN - 08 December 2016 03:56 PM

… are we talking about a Polymoog, or one of the recent VA (Virtual Analog a/k/a Analog Modeling) models?

5pinDIN - 08 December 2016 03:56 PM

… Is it basic sounds you’re trying realize, real-time control with knobs, etc.? Or is it that you want the oscillators to drift?

I haven’t fully explored the XF ROM; I have done some basic explorations of its synth waveforms, as well as a pretty full scope of AWM2.

5pinDIN - 08 December 2016 03:56 PM

If you’ve been unable to create a particular sound to your satisfaction, …

5pinDIN - 08 December 2016 03:56 PM

… it might be interesting for other members to try to improve on your efforts. If you’re willing to post an “All Voice” file with one or more of your creations, and describe what aspect(s) you’d like to improve, perhaps we can all get in on this. ….

Right now, I am using 3rd party waveforms.

More later. Thank you.

chasmanian - 09 December 2016 02:58 AM

[...] I have not tried to create any Voices with my XF.
that said, one of my fav presets is Opening.
I can make the coolest sounds with it.
it drove me crazy for years, until Bad Mister pointed out to me, that it is a mono Synth Voice (I think thats what its called).
what makes me unhappy, is how when I am really wailing away, the sound distorts and drop outs.
well, thats normal. for this Voice.
its not meant to be played the way that I play it.
if only it could, the thing can sound like a space ship taking off.
it is quite extraordinary, beautiful, magical.
takes me away, transcendent.
hope I can someday, find a way to get it to play how I want to, or make my own Voice.

The above seemed familiar, so I did a quick search and found this…
http://www.motifator.com/index.php/forum/viewthread/474460/
...where it appears I had made some suggestions for editing the “Opening” Voice. If you’d like to discuss it further, please post again in that thread.

dsetto - 09 December 2016 04:41 AM

5pinDIN - 08 December 2016 03:56 PM

… Is it basic sounds you’re trying realize, real-time control with knobs, etc.? Or is it that you want the oscillators to drift?

I do want it to sound compelling. Often, this means “alive”. I am accomplishing this by being cogniscent of the static nature of a sample, reconciled with the Motif’s capabilities of recreating “life”.

The XF is certainly capable of producing sounds which evolve over time, various aspects of which can be manually controlled if desired, although the manner in which those things can be accomplished isn’t necessarily consistent with how they’d be done with an analog synth.

 

dsetto -

I will come back here, next time I have a clear, specific problem.

OK - it can be fun to explore the possibilities.

hi 5pinDIN,
you are awesome. thank you so much again.
I will post again in that thread.  :)

I am appreciative to be able to discuss this topic. I realize the fundental question of “What am I trying to emulate?” got me tripped up a bit.

It’s a terrific question.

It almost begs to ask, for the sake of conversation:
- Was the piano trying to emulate something? The Wurlitzer, Rhodes?
- Was the pipe organ? The B3? The combo organ? The analog synthesizer? FM synths? Mellotron/ROM synths?

With the Motif (& similar instruments): ‘What am I trying to emulate’ is a great starting question.
For example, that’s how I approached it when I needed a B3. Because of its action, sliders, buttons, engine, (and great forum help and Internet articles), I had excellent results when I tried to emulate an authentic Hammond B3 experience.

When looking at the Motif as a Synthesizer, and because I lack a deep polyphonic analog,
I did begin by saying I would like to “sort of” emulate the sounds I think I would get from a polyphonic analog synthesizer.

The first issue I encountered was a deep suspicion about a “softening” effect resulting from use of AWM2’s sound-shaping. And I mean any use of it; i.e., anything other than straight sample playback. That was when I was learning AWM2’s synthesis capabilities with limited use of the ROM waveforms. From there I concluded, to achieve my goal of emulating my perception of a polyphonic analog synthesizer sound, I was going to have to, or better, I was going to ‘get’ to rely on the power of the XF: 4GB of flash plus a powerful playback engine. ... all before even getting to sound shaping.

By the way, I realize that my yardstick for analog synthesizer sound is my Moog Voyager. (Plus some limited personal experience, records, and you-tube vids.) So, in a sense, I was (and am) sometimes aiming for a sound that may be close to a Polymoog.

However, my recent breakthrough with Motif as a synthesizer was in incorporating 3rd party waveforms with the playback engine. But the great surprise for me came from the additional application of AWM2 sound-shaping. This included uses of the low pass filters, the amp and filter envelopes, pitch matters, and a simple controller assignment to open/close the filters.

My results were compelling, and alive. ‘And’ they were not like what I imagine an analog polyphonic to be. To me, it is somehow, somewhat what I would imagine FM could be, when attempting to be “warm”, like an analog. (My FM experience is limited to two sessions, one with a Reface DX, one with Montage.)

So, my good results happened when I used all the aspects the XF can do, including access to high quality 3rd party libraries, and Motifator and its superb contributors. And, when I had both an emulative and a lack of emulative mindset. I suppose you could say it was, at its core, emulative in mindset. But, it was with the real awareness that the results “may vary”. Or better, the results will vary; and will be different.

So, it was with this excitement and concern of getting close that I began this thread. The concern is, I will have spent a lot of time, only to find that if, or when, I ever do get a deep polyphonic analog synthesizer, that I will just say, ‘man, I should have just gotten this sooner.’ But, because the sound I am getting is compelling- even if it is different from a deep poly analog- and as I am getting a better command of this instrument, I want to remain focused on it, to see where I could go with it.

... This is a wide topic. There are many ways we approach and use our Motifs.

The meaning I intend, when I use the word ‘synthesizer’ in my initial question & title of this thread is an instrument that playa sounds that are not attempts at close emulations of anything else. It’s easy to distinguish such attempts when the object of emulation is a flute, string ensemble, B3, or Rhodes.

Once you have a Motif ‘Music Production Synthesizer’ emulating other existing synthesizers, in communication and concept, things get blurry.

The Motif can be a straight sample player. It can be a straight synthesizer, using a one-cycle wave as the basis for coming up with a sound. It can use both of those approaches.
In that 2nd approach, that’s where it appears to fall short, in comparison to other existing options. But even limited to that, it has its own bag of tricks.

In the end, I still don’t know if it will have been worth it. Although I’m uncomfortable admitting it, I enjoy it: the process, the challenge.

In a year, I think I’ll have a better sense if it’s worth it. I have a feeling I’m close to the cusp. And so I procrastinate and start a thread instead.

But if I have any immediate shot of communicating with someone that cares about what I care about, it’s in a forum like this.

Thank you, all.