DmitryKo - 17 January 2016 05:30 PM

5pinDIN - 17 January 2016 05:02 PM

“The XF has USB 2.0, but implemented so badly it’s only marginally faster then 1.1.”

Yamaha don’t really specify “USB 2.0 Hi-Speed” anywhere in the specs or marketing materials. I assume it’s USB 1.1 Full Speed (12 Mbit/s) just like on the XS and MOX/MOXF.

From http://faq.yamaha.com/nl/en/article/musical-instruments/keyboards/synthesizers/motif_xf/motif_xf6/6040/6164/?current_page_id=1&sort=best&type;=
“-MOTIF XF is USB 2.0 compliant.”

I realize that being “compliant” with USB 2.0 could mean Full-Speed at maximum, but it seems Yamaha didn’t try particularly hard to clarify the issue. Since I get slightly better performance with 2.0 devices on my XF than on my XS, it’s an uncertainty.

Furthermore, even on the XS the NEC UPD720101GJ-UEN, a 2.0 Hi-Speed controller, is what interfaces the TO DEVICE port. Apparently Yamaha limited the throughput intentionally, possibly because other processing bottlenecks existed.

I’m not necessary finding fault with Yamaha’s design, just saying that we won’t know what the Montage is capable of until someone gets their hands on one and checks it out.

EDIT: DschoKeys posted while I verified and typed the above. It looks like we came to pretty much the same conclusions.  :-)

foleycore21 - 16 January 2016 02:48 AM

10: Competent sampler including loop cross-fade editing among other editing functions.

Well Yamaha has a habit of making a tedious toy quality sampling engine equal to a $50 computer program.

Never on the level of Korg or Roland so far.

Hopefully the montage may offer samplist some type of hope of getting past the Motif sampling interface encryption.

I was looking at the photos and leaked text again and then it hit me - isn’t the Super-Knob basically the same as “Scene morphing” in AN1x and EX5? There are two “store” buttons above the super knob. First you set your 8 knobs to whatever positions you desire, press “1” to store, then set the kbobs to different positions, press “2” to store, and then use the SuperKnob to morph between memorized positions. Makes sense?

if you guys have gotten to the point of complaining about ethernet connections, this must be a really great synth!

meanwhile, ... Dudes - it has a SUPER KNOB!  i mean, cmon ... !!!  Screw that ethernet crap, you don’t need to build a supercomputing home network with your synth.  all you need is one kick-ass super knob!

motidave - 18 January 2016 08:54 PM

if you guys have gotten to the point of complaining about ethernet connections, this must be a really great synth![...]

Well, I do find Ethernet connectivity convenient for file loading…

...but the Montage has buttons for Octave and Transpose (switchable), so no more menu diving to move things a few steps.

I’m not sure that’s a fair trade, but it is convenient.  :-)

Jote - 18 January 2016 08:50 PM

I was looking at the photos and leaked text again and then it hit me - isn’t the Super-Knob basically the same as “Scene morphing” in AN1x and EX5? There are two “store” buttons above the super knob. First you set your 8 knobs to whatever positions you desire, press “1” to store, then set the kbobs to different positions, press “2” to store, and then use the SuperKnob to morph between memorized positions. Makes sense?

Could be. It seems a reasonable/educated guess, given what information we have to work with.

DschoKeys - 17 January 2016 05:40 PM

The “Compatible Device List for MOTIF XS/XF” states that “MOTIF XF/XS is USB 2.0 compliant”

5pinDIN - 17 January 2016 06:26 PM

I realize that being “compliant” with USB 2.0 could mean Full-Speed at maximum, but it seems Yamaha didn’t try particularly hard to clarify the issue

USB compliance testing checks basic electrical compatibility and signal quality in the transmitter. It does not evaluate real-world transfer performance of the system.

Yamaha only uses the standard USB trident logo on their products, and not the “USB Certified” logo with the explicit “HI-SPEED” banner.

http://www.usb.org/developers/logo_license/
http://www.usb.org/developers/compliance/highspeed/
http://www.usb.org/developers/compliance/check_list/
http://www.usb.org/developers/compliance/electrical_tests/

the NEC UPD720101GJ-UEN, a 2.0 Hi-Speed controller, is that interfaces the TO DEVICE port

The NEC/Renesas USB controller is Hi-Speed certified. The Motif XF - i.e. the system board which contains the USB controller - is not.

Apparently Yamaha limited the throughput intentionally, possibly because other processing bottlenecks existed

Probably not “intentionally” - it just seems like either the host CPU or the USB software stack just can’t keep up.  Or some things were wrong on the application side - i.e. Yamaha’s proprietary “firmware” (the synth OS).

If they upgraded the Linux kernel 2.6.10 from 2004 to a recent version, they could have better USB device drivers and protocol stack implementation. However Monta Vista Linux source was extensively patched for better real-time performance, so re-engineering these changes for a new kernel would be a hell of a work. They have never updated even the Samba 3.0.x client released in 2003 - and that’s a relatively effortless change.

Has anyone mentioned the 4 buttons beside the wheels on the far bottom left? With 4GB of ROM are we expecting Tyros 5 level super articulation quality sample triggering? I used to own the T5 and it was on another level up from the Motif as far as nuance and articulation sound controls. If these are the articulation buttons then they have added more and moved them to a better location. The wireless feature was cool on the T5, I could purchase expansion packs and with the press of a button send the data over to the T5 without a corded connection. I now own 9 expansion packs worth hundreds of dollars and without the T5 they are worthless. What a waste for me, great for Yamaha. Would be nice If I could load these into the Montage. I can’t imagine what the 4GB has in store for us considering the XF was only a fraction and really loaded and the T5 was maybe only twice the XF and those were the best sounds I’ve ever heard. 5 to 10 times more/better would be astonishing not even considering the FMX jewel. We have to hear this machine now!

Does it appear that the Montage hood is a flip top like the CP1 and the DX7? Maybe not but I noticed that continuous joint along the back. It’s very handy on my CP1 when changing out boards and I even had to fix a dislodged key. So much easier than flipping it upside down and removing the guts.

davlippo7 - 19 January 2016 03:34 PM

Has anyone mentioned the 4 buttons beside the wheels on the far bottom left? With 4GB of ROM are we expecting Tyros 5 level super articulation quality sample triggering? I used to own the T5 and it was on another level up from the Motif as far as nuance and articulation sound controls. If these are the articulation buttons then they have added more and moved them to a better location. The wireless feature was cool on the T5, I could purchase expansion packs and with the press of a button send the data over to the T5 without a corded connection. I now own 9 expansion packs worth hundreds of dollars and without the T5 they are worthless. What a waste for me, great for Yamaha. Would be nice If I could load these into the Montage. I can’t imagine what the 4GB has in store for us considering the XF was only a fraction and really loaded and the T5 was maybe only twice the XF and those were the best sounds I’ve ever heard. 5 to 10 times more/better would be astonishing not even considering the FMX jewel. We have to hear this machine now!

As much as I would love to see T5 sounds in the Montage, I doubt we’ll be seeing them. They are generated by a sophisticated engine called Articulation Element Modeling and would probably have to be non-editable, which would make the “synth” experience inconsistent. I’m not even sure if those kind of sounds use a traditional static 8-element architecture, or perhaps the articulation waveforms are assigned on the fly.

Also, Yamaha made it somewhat clear in the past that they are one of the those sound are for “a different market”.

A good read from the excellent blog of PJ

http://sandsoftwaresound.net/sa-and-sa2-yamahas-words/

I would love to hear more on this subject by the way.

davlippo7 - 19 January 2016 04:11 PM

Does it appear that the Montage hood is a flip top like the CP1 and the DX7? Maybe not but I noticed that continuous joint along the back. It’s very handy on my CP1 when changing out boards and I even had to fix a dislodged key. So much easier than flipping it upside down and removing the guts.

On the Motif XS and XF, the control panel is hinged at the rear. With the XS6/7 and XF6/7 three screws first have to be removed from the bottom. Then side panels and various other screws at top and rear have to be removed. Once that’s done the panel can be lifted/rotated.

It would be convenient for servicers if that approach continued on the Montage.

It would be inconvenient for Montage users if it needed to be done.

Hi --

Thanks for posting that link, Jote.

I’d like to see SA/SA2 voices in Montage, too. The underlying hardware can do the job. The question is whether Yamaha determined that there is enough user demand to justify the expense of adding it. (Or how many new sales would be enabled and all the usually marketing stuff.)

There are two aspects to SA/SA2: knowing when to trigger an articulation and generating the articulation. The Motif approach is Expanded Articulation triggered by the two front panel buttons (suitably configured) and/or legato key presses. Motif XF added “Tenor Max” which is an Expanded Articulation (XA) version of a Tyros SA tenor sax. Motif does not detect some of the key playing gestures of Tyros that make SA/SA2 voices so intuitive for slides, etc.

Actual tone generation for SA and XA is very similar between Motif and Tyros. SA2 (Articulated Element Modeling) is a whole other critter that requires at least cross-fading and some fancy computation to handle vibrato/pitch bends—all with minimum latency.

I could see Yamaha continuing with XA and adding more articulation waveforms for various instruments. Whether they make key gesture detection richer or add SA2 tone generation? That’s a question for Yamaha marketing! Yamaha might want to keep SA2 special to Tyros—it hasn’t percolated down to the PSRs. (We’ll soon find out about Montage.)

All the best—pj

Motif XF itself, has a huge room for improvement. The AWM synthesis engine can be further improved It’s just a shame that Yamaha didn’t upgrade this engine. 8 elements is lame, pretty lame. You can’t even have a proper organ setup, nor a good piano sound nor enough articulations. Arpeggiator engine is another example.
Now here is the thing:
Instead of asking people here have you mastered your MOTIFs blah blah… one should ask Yamaha have you made a TOTAL ROMpler or fixed all the shortcomings of MOTIF XF that you’re adding another engine to it or it’s the same old crap that was fed to people for +10 years?

He’s probably a Yamaha employee paid to trash their gear so that we can passionately defend it.

im glad when ones are able to speak their thoughts . for I’m not sure if montage when i heard it from yamaha is live sound or from someone beefing up from a studio,. I love my motif xs not always though in the past took me a long time to clean up presets,but from what I’ve heard from the montage if its from it is not as good as my motif xs, of course I’ve have to wait and see how strings sound on it...then ill make a judgment then,nothing against anyone on this forum,what I’m hoping for is when they do release the montage..that some will put on this forum of what it sounds like,,. strings,acoustics guitar,without using studio gear to make it sound better,..but also if montage sounds great from the box then it sounds better than my motif xs from the box.....ps all i care about is sound quality ,,and if it doesn’t have it they really need to fire their sound engineers,..  just for ones to think about,,or what good is it that they make a new keyboard…