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Viewing topic "S70XS - Voice does not sound the same in Performance Mode - why - and how to prevent differences?"

     
Posted on: December 31, 2015 @ 04:31 AM
wp54
Total Posts:  27
Joined  01-27-2014
status: Regular

I have been getting to grips with my S70XS and loving it but something wasn’t quite right and I have just worked out what it is.

As an example:-

- I downloaded and installed the excellent S6 piano edits that go some way to mimic the S90ES/ S700 pianos. (from here http://farozz.doomby.com/pagine/download-files/yamaha.html ...though the download links have been removed now as far as I can see)

- In particular the one I like is called “Dark S700” Now I want to create a performance using that voice, so I select an unused Performance slot and initialise it.

- Then put the Dark S700 into voice slot 1 of the performance.....and now it sounds totally different, much much brighter.

This is not the behaviour I expected… I expected it to sound as it was in Voice mode

Sure I may want do some further edits of the whole performance, but how do I ensure that I at least start with an untouched voice sound?

So I must be doing something very basic that is wrong...any ideas?

Many thanks

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Posted on: December 31, 2015 @ 05:45 AM
5pinDIN
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wp54 - 31 December 2015 04:31 AM

I have been getting to grips with my S70XS and loving it but something wasn’t quite right and I have just worked out what it is.

As an example:-

- I downloaded and installed the excellent S6 piano edits that go some way to mimic the S90ES/ S700 pianos. (from here http://farozz.doomby.com/pagine/download-files/yamaha.html ...though the download links have been removed now as far as I can see)

I don’t have an S70XS or S90XS, so I can’t comment on the quality. However, I believe this site has the Voices you’re referring to:
http://gianlucafarina.xoom.it/virgiliowizard/yamaha-s90xs

 

wp54 -

- In particular the one I like is called “Dark S700” Now I want to create a performance using that voice, so I select an unused Performance slot and initialise it.

- Then put the Dark S700 into voice slot 1 of the performance.....and now it sounds totally different, much much brighter.

This is not the behaviour I expected… I expected it to sound as it was in Voice mode

Sure I may want do some further edits of the whole performance, but how do I ensure that I at least start with an untouched voice sound?

So I must be doing something very basic that is wrong...any ideas?

See the S70XS/S90XS Reference Manual, page 81, Parameter with Voice. Be sure to turn it on before selecting the Voice for a Part. If you’ve selected the Voice first, after turning Param with Voice on, temporarily select another Voice and then go back to the one you want.

There’s also the issue of System Effects not transferring from a Voice to a Part in a Performance. See page 77 of the Reference Manual.

These articles should help with the above issues:
http://www.motifator.com/index.php/support/view/copying_voice_data_to_a_performance_or_mixing_program

http://www.motifator.com/index.php/support/view/insertion_effects_differ_from_the_system_effects

In addition, John Melas has some software that might be helpful. See the Voice Copier description, and then download the S90XS/S70XS Tools demo.
http://www.jmelas.gr/motif/tools.php
http://www.jmelas.gr/motif/products.php

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Posted on: December 31, 2015 @ 03:11 PM
wp54
Total Posts:  27
Joined  01-27-2014
status: Regular

That’s great - many thanks (again) for the super quick reply.

Lots to look at here ... I may have more to ask when I have worked through this!

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Posted on: December 31, 2015 @ 04:42 PM
5pinDIN
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wp54 - 31 December 2015 03:11 PM

That’s great - many thanks (again) for the super quick reply.

Lots to look at here ... I may have more to ask when I have worked through this!

You’re welcome, and feel free to ask additional questions if anything isn’t clear.

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Posted on: January 02, 2016 @ 05:18 AM
wp54
Total Posts:  27
Joined  01-27-2014
status: Regular

Ok – thankyou - to report back on what I have found – basically – I can confirm there is a solution that works for me.

For the benefit of others who may be looking here are a few notes:-

- Remembering that the issue was that a Voice that was edited and saved in a Usr slot did not sound the same when used as a part in a Performance. What alerted me to this in particular was that EQ changed.

- I tried the suggestion

5pinDIN - 31 December 2015 05:45 AM

See the S70XS/S90XS Reference Manual, page 81, Parameter with Voice. Be sure to turn it on before selecting the Voice for a Part. If you’ve selected the Voice first, after turning Param with Voice on, temporarily select another Voice and then go back to the one you want.

o But - although this will have carried forward various parameters, I found it did not retain EQ

- Hence probably your comment

5pinDIN - 31 December 2015 05:45 AM

There’s also the issue of System Effects not transferring from a Voice to a Part in a Performance. See page 77 of the Reference Manual.

…. And I looked at the articles you suggested

- But at that point – realising that there is a lot going on in this seemingly simple copy operation – I gave up trying to do it this manual-type way as I felt I could not be sure I would do ALL the things you needed to do in order to do a copy exact….. and used the Voice Copier facility in John Melas Performance Editor.

o Result = SUCCESS, job done.

The only downside is that it means I have to connect my laptop to do this – ie it’s one more thing which you cannot do on board (well, as above I’m sure you can but it’s fiddly) – just something that makes working with this board a little bit harder – which is I know a general if slight criticism of Yamaha boards vs Roland generally. (BTW I’m Yamaha all the way – I recently bought a RD700GX, didn’t like the piano sounds, and went running back to Yamaha….)

The big surprise (to me at least!) is that Yamaha did not build this functionality into the board as default behaviour. I’m sure it can be argued from a purist point of view that the “effect stripping” nature of the on board copy facility is correct, but from my point of view, the reason you spend time editing a Voice is to have it as a resource to use wherever, as edited.

I further realise that the way this works is not limited to the S90/70SX but is across the Motif range generally, as evidenced by the John Melas software copy utility. The fact that this utility exists shows that there is a need that Yamaha did not meet….!

One more thing to highlight - the S90/70XS (not sure about original S90 or ES version) has a “quick layer” facility. I found that when using this, the Voice that you were using at the point you pressed the Layer button DID retain all the parameters/EQ, but the voice you added did not.
I can’t imagine that this diverging functionality is intended, but there it is!

One final question – I know that since the S70/90XS can’t import new ROM, all the Voice edits will be based on an original preset. Is it possible to interrogate an edited voice in a USR slot to find out what original Preset voice it is based on?

Thanks again for your help!

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Posted on: January 02, 2016 @ 08:05 AM
5pinDIN
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wp54 - 02 January 2016 05:18 AM

Ok – thankyou - to report back on what I have found – basically – I can confirm there is a solution that works for me.

For the benefit of others who may be looking here are a few notes:-

- Remembering that the issue was that a Voice that was edited and saved in a Usr slot did not sound the same when used as a part in a Performance. What alerted me to this in particular was that EQ changed.

- I tried the suggestion

5pinDIN - 31 December 2015 05:45 AM

See the S70XS/S90XS Reference Manual, page 81, Parameter with Voice. Be sure to turn it on before selecting the Voice for a Part. If you’ve selected the Voice first, after turning Param with Voice on, temporarily select another Voice and then go back to the one you want.

o But - although this will have carried forward various parameters, I found it did not retain EQ

- Hence probably your comment

5pinDIN - 31 December 2015 05:45 AM

There’s also the issue of System Effects not transferring from a Voice to a Part in a Performance. See page 77 of the Reference Manual.

That’s correct, neither System Effects nor Common EQ will be copied to a Performance.

 

wp54 - 02 January 2016 05:18 AM

…. And I looked at the articles you suggested

- But at that point – realising that there is a lot going on in this seemingly simple copy operation – I gave up trying to do it this manual-type way as I felt I could not be sure I would do ALL the things you needed to do in order to do a copy exact….. and used the Voice Copier facility in John Melas Performance Editor.

o Result = SUCCESS, job done.

The only downside is that it means I have to connect my laptop to do this – ie it’s one more thing which you cannot do on board (well, as above I’m sure you can but it’s fiddly) – just something that makes working with this board a little bit harder – which is I know a general if slight criticism of Yamaha boards vs Roland generally. (BTW I’m Yamaha all the way – I recently bought a RD700GX, didn’t like the piano sounds, and went running back to Yamaha….)

The big surprise (to me at least!) is that Yamaha did not build this functionality into the board as default behaviour. I’m sure it can be argued from a purist point of view that the “effect stripping” nature of the on board copy facility is correct, but from my point of view, the reason you spend time editing a Voice is to have it as a resource to use wherever, as edited.

I further realise that the way this works is not limited to the S90/70SX but is across the Motif range generally, as evidenced by the John Melas software copy utility. The fact that this utility exists shows that there is a need that Yamaha did not meet….!

Yamaha’s premise is that when a Voice is used as Part of a Performance, the environment will be shared by all four of the Parts (Voices), so System Effects and EQ requirements would likely be different than what was appropriate for the Voice by itself.

If you want EQ to be copied from a Voice to a Performance Part, using it as an Insert Effect can accomplish that. See http://www.motifator.com/index.php/support/view/vcm_equalizer_501_motif_xs

I’ve had my XS and XF for long enough to have learned how to copy things without too much effort, but I can see the value in the Melas software, and I’m glad that it served your needs.

 

wp54 - 02 January 2016 05:18 AM

One more thing to highlight - the S90/70XS (not sure about original S90 or ES version) has a “quick layer” facility. I found that when using this, the Voice that you were using at the point you pressed the Layer button DID retain all the parameters/EQ, but the voice you added did not.
I can’t imagine that this diverging functionality is intended, but there it is!

I own none of the S90 models, so I really can’t comment, other than to say “it is what it is”.

 

wp54 - 02 January 2016 05:18 AM

One final question – I know that since the S70/90XS can’t import new ROM, all the Voice edits will be based on an original preset. Is it possible to interrogate an edited voice in a USR slot to find out what original Preset voice it is based on?

There’s no “history” stored with Voice data. An edited Voice stored in a USR slot might be a slight “tweak” to a Preset one, or radically different (including being based on a completely different ROM Waveform), so knowing where a User Voice originated might not be very helpful. If you’re doing your own edits, and want to keep track of which Preset Voice you started with, you could include a reference to it in the edited Voice’s name. Adding, for example, “P4B09”, could indicate that your Voice was based on B09 in Preset Bank 4.

 

wp54 - 02 January 2016 05:18 AM

Thanks again for your help!

You’re welcome, and thanks for sharing your experiences, which others will likely find helpful.

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Posted on: January 27, 2016 @ 07:44 AM
5pinDIN
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See http://www.motifator.com/index.php/forum/viewthread/476645/

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Posted on: January 27, 2016 @ 10:10 AM
wp54
Total Posts:  27
Joined  01-27-2014
status: Regular

Yes indeed.... actually that was my post!!!!

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Posted on: January 27, 2016 @ 10:29 AM
5pinDIN
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wp54 - 27 January 2016 10:10 AM

Yes indeed.... actually that was my post!!!!

I know. I posted the link so that others could follow the continuation of the matter.

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Posted on: November 17, 2020 @ 11:22 AM
V-man
Total Posts:  27
Joined  01-19-2020
status: Regular

Hi,

I have a S90ES. I’m trying to use John Melas Voice Copier 1.5.1 software. I have a IConnectMidi interface connected to midi in- and out on the S90ES and USB to my computer. Voice Copier recognizes the MIDI interface both in- and out but Voice Copiers say there is no Connection and there is no data in the voice drop downs in the interface. Suddenly there is also a message saying that there is no MIDI driver installed. Does any one know what I’m doing wrong? Is it only the missing midi driver that is the issue here. I have connected other synths and used different midi software with this computer before with no complaints about missing midi drivers.

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