I dunno, I love me some automated arpeggios and it does give me some creative inspiration, and I do ultimately produce music that I may not have produced without the arps. I think that is a good thing(maybe).  The same was true when Yamaha first started including musical phrases. Inspiration there too.  And now Karma.  I don’t fully understand it yet.  But it seems like Karma takes complex rich Arpeggios and automation to the next level with full blown complete computer generated songs!  and now all the musician (or non musician) has to do is hit a note here or there and voila! out comes good music. Someone please correct if I am wrong about Karma.  I looking into it to see whether I should add it to my music production.  Motif-Karma the possibilities are endless!!!!

I was recently at a rehearsal with my drummer and bass player, and guitarist, and before they got there, I was kind of jammin on my MOX I had some real nice groove going(nice arpeggiation happenin, velocity parameter set just right for cymbals and bass kicks) very complete sound.  Well the other musicians got there and I was so into the groove the drummer had to interrupt me.  He said hey man looks like you don’t need us today, the guitar player also made a nasty remark LOL to that same effect.  Truth be told, the whole band could have stayed home that day....

It seems like with KARMA we are one step away from not even needing keyboard players.  AFAIC that’s going to far :-)

I hope I’m wrong about this.  But I can’t help but wonder if I didn’t have the arpeggios, or early pre-built musical phrases, would my creativity had taken a different turn?  I’m naturally creative, but were the arpeggios too suggestive? 

Yes the arpeggios and music phrases do inspire but do they also influence you into certain directions that keep you from exploring other directions that you might have explored if you didn’t have the arpeggios or pre-built musical phrases.

And it seems like KARMA (I could be wrong here) brings a fully set of complete song templates that you can mix and match, and create your own songs kind-a-like a musical version of Photo shop.

Is technology like KARMA ultimately better for musicians and musicianship or a harbinger of the beginning of the end? We don’t need no musicians we got KARMA!

How far are we away from fully AUTOMATED DAWS that don’t need musicians at all?

I’m sure the record companies would like the idea of producing profitable recordings without needing to pay or deal with a bunch of moody weird greedy ungrateful musicians.

I’m down with the concept of automated rich, programmable arpeggios and musical phrases, loops, pre-recorded grooves etc, but is there a line that shouldn’t be crossed?

How far is too far?  Do we really want fully automated computer generated songs, musical algorithms, synthetic digital composing,
automation automating other automation under the digital control of probabilistic musical algorithms?

They say the jukebox ultimately put a lot of bands and good musicians out of work.  Will this Karma type technology finish the job?

I dunno.... (As I hit the Arp on button on my MOX LOL) Maybe I should stay clear of Karma????

This post should really go in the Mo Lounge, as it is really posting a rhetorical question.

Karma, or any type of sequenced arpeggio/pattern/phrase playback, will NEVER replace musicians. It is a tool designed to assist in your own creativity. It has nothing to do with
translating your created compositions to a live performance with other musicians.

You are really really late to the party on this subject. When drum machines came out in the early 80’s, people wondered if they would put drummers out of work. There was even talk
of musicians’ unions banning them from use on union gigs. We all know that drum machines didn’t eliminate the need for real human drummers.

If you think your Karma playback on your Motif XF sounds like a real band, think again.
And listen again to your band next time you rehearse. There is no way you can duplicate
the sound of four or five musicians playing together in a room. That’s real human beings
interacting with each other, on the spot, on the fly, in real time. Your Motif XF cannot
do that.

Go ahead and use your Karma and Motif for whatever you want. My guess is that your
bandmates just thought what you were playing back sounded cheesy, and, no offense,
it probably did.

David, I really want to believe that the technology won’t replace musicians.  And of course the fact that we still have drummers does mean that drum machines did not totally replace drummers.  And of course the MOTIF + KARMA does not sound better than five live musicians in a room if those musicians are any good LOL.  But it definitely can sound better than a whole class of musicians (mediocre musicians) out there.  I appreciate your romantic point of view i.e, that the technology will never replace musicians.  But you have to really dig into that position there is a lot of nuance there.

No the technology won’t replace musicians completely, but it will diminish the need for them in many many situations.  Here are some similar analogies.

It was once said that Television would never replace live plays.  And to be sure, there are still live plays.  But live plays do not hold the same place in society they once did.  It was once said that listening to music over the radio would never replace going to the opera or going to see live performances, and that also is true.  People still go to the opera, and still see live performances.  But both the opera and live performances hold a different place in today’s society as they once did.　When the first automobiles were seen, it was said that they would never replace riding horses, or the horse & carriage, and to be sure right here in Ohio (where I live) we have a small Amish community still travelling with horse driven carriages (rly!) but suffice it to say that riding horses and horse driven carriages, stage coaches and the like have largely been replaced by cars.

Of course Drum machines, Argeggios, and Karma won’t replace every musician, everywhere, but there will ultimately be less musicians(as we currently understand the word) as a result of this technology. As a musician I hope I’m wrong!

I remember a time in Detroit where almost any night of the week you could see live performances on all side of town lots of clubs.  Now you can still see live performances in Detroit, just not as many, and not as good.  And those clubs, instead of having trios, quartets, quintets, vocal groups etc., now have one or two guys with some pretty awesome technology producing acceptable, sometimes very good (and usually cheap) entertainment.

No the technology won’t replace good musicians, but I’ve noticed that the listening public is becoming less critical in terms of what makes good music.  And Karma-generated music will certainly suffice for a whole generation of the non-discriminating listening audience. In M&M;’s song “Syllables” Ft. 50 Cent, Ca$his, Dr. Dre JayZ & Stat Quo part of the lyrics are “Its not about lyrics anymore it’s about a hot beat and a catchy hook”.  M&M;is reporting the truth LOL Karma+Motif definitely rises to the ocassion of producing a hot beat and a catchy hook and you won’t need a real musician to do it either (at least not from what I’ve seen with the Karma demonstrations)

No this type of automation won’t ultimately replace good musicians, but it doesn’t have to!!!  Good music is not necessarily a standard for everyone LOL.  Sometimes a band or musician has to go through the poor -to- mediocre stage before quality gets produced.  This technology could easily replace musicians in that phase of their development.  Yes it could help some get out of the category as well.

Music Technology is not a all or nothing scenario.  Its not the case that Karma-type-automation has to replace all good musicians, but it will replace many musicians and diminish the need for others.  There will probably be a lot less of what we would define as a good musician today as a result of the proliferation of this technology.  Again, I do hope I’m just being cynical here.

I have folks in Cleveland & Detroit (not necessarily the most exciting cities), but once upon a time you could walk up & down on most any city block in both those cities in the summer and hear a live band practicing, playing, Jamming, a drummer messin around, guitar licks, etc.  It was normal. Guys walkin around with a pair of drum sticks hangin in the back pocket (regular sightings of such) Yes you can still find that here and there, but it has largely been replaced by the tech.

Why should I have to go through all of the drama involved in finding and keeping and transporting a drummer when I have something like a Motif.  Nope the Motif would not replace a good drummer in every situation, but it is better than a poor drummer and will even replace a good drummer in many less demanding scenarios.

David I own tech, I’m all about that.  I immensely enjoy my MOX8, MM8, QY100 and all of the automation features they have to offer.  But I’ve also lived long enough to see the impact that the technology has had both Positive & Negative on live performance, musicianship, & the concept of a band.

I truly hope you are right, and that I’m just overly paranoid, and reading the tea leaves wrong. 

In the town where I live, I’ve seen 9 music stores (that sold all kinds of instruments) close.  We now have one Guitar Center.  Its always crowded with plenty of musicians.  The drum section is dominated with Midi Drums, and then there are the DAWS with keys, and Guitars lots of Guitars (which is a good thing).  But not the range or quality of musical instruments that they could have. 

There are still violin players, saxophone, trumpets, recorders, bongos, congas, harmonica,etc for sale somewhere just not all over the place like they once were.  Plugins, Digital Recordings, pre-built phrases, sampled sounds, the digitization of the instrumental ensemble has lessened the need for the real thing. 

Yes you are right Karma-type technology will never totally replace, but it will probably diminish the need for real musicians.  At least that is the way it appears to me.... :-)

Psycho Babble:  ROFLMBAO, I think that you can find very many convincing arguments on both sides of this coin.  For example here are a few, I have a lot more that are a lot more sophisticated if you need:

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/why-digital-music-looks-set-to-replace-live-performances/

http://www.atarimagazines.com/compute/issue56/094_1_Music_in_the_Computer_Age.php

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/tech/news/robotics/2006-12-14-virutal-orchestra_x.htm

http://tech.slashdot.org/story/10/07/31/1916232/broadway-musicians-replaced-with-synthesizers

http://ask-beta.slashdot.org/story/13/12/18/0033234/ask-slashdot-can-digital-music-replace-most-instrumental-musicians

David Polich is certainly entitled to his opinion, and I’m glad that your fiat powers allow you to pronounce him right, but there are many many others who are quite qualified who argue the other side.  I’m pretty sure that in addition to just discussion, we can find hard numbers that can solve the argument one way or another.

Either the music technology does not displace real musicians or it does.  I personally would like to believe that the technology really just helps us produce better music, but I’m afraid the data (facts) would probably show otherwise.

There’s only one way to settle this - ask people who have precognition. Perhaps these folks…
http://www.musicradar.com/us/futuremusic/

;-)

lastmonk,

Are you asking a question, trying to start a discussion about Karma or something else entirely?

I agree with lastmonk. It will change! And we cannot stand in the way of advancement. There is no turning back! But I don’t think we need to view it negatively either. Creativity will simply have to take a different form. Ultimately, we won’t have bands as we see them today: rehearsals done over the internet, live shows with playback. The public’s expectations will have to follow the trend too. Just look at DJ’s today and how they became superstars. Is this creativity? Probably it depends on who you ask!
I mean are there other reasons for preferring an Acoustic Grand over an expensive electric piano or keyboard, other than sentimentality, looks or show-off? May be this is an exaggeration, but this is the direction we’re going anyway.
At the end of the day, I think it is the artist that decides how they use tools (ARPs, playbacks or Karma) that are available today, and then choose where to put their creativity. “Kraftwork” or “Alan Parsons”, it’s up to you!

I know psychobabble! But isn’t it the same thing? You can choose to only press ARP buttons -> Kraftwork, or add a bit of human touch with more creativity -> Alan Parsons! (by the way it figures your pseudoname is psychobabble -> “Eye in the Sky” :-)

meatballfulton - 05 February 2015 07:43 PM

lastmonk,

Are you asking a question, trying to start a discussion about Karma or something else entirely?

I am really doing a little bit of both.  Asking a question about Karma and starting a discussion.

As I’ve posted I’m a happy camper with my Yamaha Gear.  My first sequencer was a QY100 , and I still have it and use it madly.  I also bought a MOX 8 when they first came out and love the sequencing and automation and ARPs.  Now I hear a little buzz about something called Karma, Motif Karma and I look at a few videos demoing it.  One of the videos is on this forum.  From the demo and listening to the narrator, it appears that Karma (or at least aspects of it) take arpeggiators to the next level.  So now we’re not just talking about a phrase, or a loop, or a drum beat, but it seems like we’re talking complete songs ready for you to mix and match , stretch, bend, and make your own.

So my first question was am I understanding this right?  Is this what Karma is?

Next, I ask myself wow, if we are talking about algorithmic digital song production?  KARMA does have the word algorithm in the acronym.  I really and legitimately asking myself and some of my peers that may be on Motifator is there a such thing as too much?  Too much inspiration, too much automation.  Has Karma gone too far?  I dunno, its a question I threw out there, with hopes of getting an intelligent response.  Dave Polich gave a quick and decisive response, and he got a hardy AMEN from Psycho Babble.  Which is fine with me.  But upon digging a little deeper into the subject matter, it turns out that this whole digital instrument phenomenon has a lot of enemies in very high places among my fellow musicians.

Because I’m into digital music and digital instruments I didn’t realize how serious the matter was until I got Dave Polich’s response and the AMEN from Psycho Babble.  So I posted just a small sample of links that I found that clearly demonstrate that musicians being replaced by digital technology is a serious concern by a lot of folks at many different levels in music:

Broadway
Theatre Production
Movie Production
Classical Performers
Orchestral gigs
and so on.

So yes I do have a question for anyone who has actually used Motif Karma.  Does it take arpeggiators to the next level by delivering complete songs that can then be molded into your own music?  And if so, is that going too far?

Dave’s opinion that drum machines and its current incarnation(arpeggios) won’t replace real musicians seems to be a difficult opinion to hold for a lot of other musicians that have been replaced by this kind of digital musical capability.

Lastmonk wrote:

Because I’m into digital music and digital instruments I didn’t realize how serious the matter was until I got Dave Polich’s response and the AMEN from Psycho Babble.  So I posted just a small sample of links that I found that clearly demonstrate that musicians being replaced by digital technology is a serious concern by a lot of folks at many different levels in music:

Dave’s opinion that drum machines and its current incarnation(arpeggios) won’t replace real musicians seems to be a difficult opinion to hold for a lot of other musicians that have been replaced by this kind of digital musical capability

Dude, your links are to really old articles written by know-nothing non-musicians. There’s a difference between using a computer to play back recorded parts, and a real musician performing. You’re confusing what is simply a matter of budgetary considerations (saving money by using a computer playback instead of hiring players)
with whether a computer can play an instrument. A computer cannot play an instrument.

Does a sample of a violin, played back from a keyboard, sound just like a real violin player, standing in front of you, playing a real violin? no, it does not. If you cannot
tell the difference between a shite sample of an instrument and the real living breathing player playing one, then that is the very reason you are asking whether computers and
electronic musical instruments can substitute for actual human beings. They cannot and
never will.

Regarding Karma…I love Stephen Kay, he’s a genius and Karma is a major achievement.
But it is not a song “creator”. It can’t write songs. It’s just a tool providing you with more
things to choose from. It does not “go too far”. Stephen Kay is a musician. he created the Karma software. A computer did not. Therefore, a computer cannot replace the musician. Who do you think comes up with the patterns and phrases and arpeggios
in a synth? Musicians. Who do you think programmed the sounds in your Motif XF? A team of musicians. Who do you see playing Motifs onstage with music stars? Musicians..
you don’t see robots onstage with Taylor Swift, do you?

Bottom line is, you are way over thinking this, big-time. Chill out and go make some more music. Stop analyzing and parsing it. That’s a worthless waste of time.

psychobabble - 06 February 2015 09:26 AM

lastmonk - 05 February 2015 09:30 PM

meatballfulton - 05 February 2015 07:43 PM

lastmonk,

Are you asking a question, trying to start a discussion about Karma or something else entirely?

I am really doing a little bit of both.  Asking a question about Karma and starting a discussion.

As I’ve posted I’m a happy camper with my Yamaha Gear.  My first sequencer was a QY100 , and I still have it and use it madly.  I also bought a MOX 8 when they first came out and love the sequencing and automation and ARPs.  Now I hear a little buzz about something called Karma, Motif Karma and I look at a few videos demoing it.  One of the videos is on this forum.  From the demo and listening to the narrator, it appears that Karma (or at least aspects of it) take arpeggiators to the next level.  So now we’re not just talking about a phrase, or a loop, or a drum beat, but it seems like we’re talking complete songs ready for you to mix and match , stretch, bend, and make your own.

So my first question was am I understanding this right?  Is this what Karma is?

Next, I ask myself wow, if we are talking about algorithmic digital song production?  KARMA does have the word algorithm in the acronym.  I really and legitimately asking myself and some of my peers that may be on Motifator is there a such thing as too much?  Too much inspiration, too much automation.  Has Karma gone too far?  I dunno, its a question I threw out there, with hopes of getting an intelligent response.  Dave Polich gave a quick and decisive response, and he got a hardy AMEN from Psycho Babble.  Which is fine with me.  But upon digging a little deeper into the subject matter, it turns out that this whole digital instrument phenomenon has a lot of enemies in very high places among my fellow musicians.

Because I’m into digital music and digital instruments I didn’t realize how serious the matter was until I got Dave Polich’s response and the AMEN from Psycho Babble.  So I posted just a small sample of links that I found that clearly demonstrate that musicians being replaced by digital technology is a serious concern by a lot of folks at many different levels in music:

Broadway
Theatre Production
Movie Production
Classical Performers
Orchestral gigs
and so on.

So yes I do have a question for anyone who has actually used Motif Karma.  Does it take arpeggiators to the next level by delivering complete songs that can then be molded into your own music?  And if so, is that going too far?

Dave’s opinion that drum machines and its current incarnation(arpeggios) won’t replace real musicians seems to be a difficult opinion to hold for a lot of other musicians that have been replaced by this kind of digital musical capability.

Dave has talked sense on this forum for many years and has explained the ways of reality to many a snot nosed teenage dirtbag, you know the kind, “shall I learn piano, or shall I learn the Theremin, cool I’ll go with Theremin because it has a visual edge that will make me look cool”

Actually it was an ‘amen’ to reality.

You know, the reality you substituted with your own.

“digital technology is a serious concern by a lot of folks at many different levels in music:”

I love it when anyone feels qualified enough to talk on behalf of the people

You need a cookie and maybe a hug.

Hi Psycho Babble and Dave.  I apologize.  I included those links from places like scientific american, slashdot, musicians union etc, with the assumption that they would be read and understood.  I guess I could have went with pictures, but some how I don’t think it would matter in this case :-).

There are definitely folks that have belief revision challenges and monotonic reasoning habits, where no amount of new information regardless to how well supported will cause a change to their systems.  That’s kewl though.  I know a lot of those, have a lot of friends and family that way.

You guys obviously have an entrenched opinion on the subject , and I’m still forming mine.

Thanx for the feedback!

Cheers!!!

BTW

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1986-08-17/news/8603010795_1_programmer-computer-synthesizer

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/06/12/arts/music/a-digital-orchestra-for-opera-purists-take-and-play-offense.html?_r=0

http://www.spacedaily.com/reports/Broadway_sings_blues_over_synthesizer_invasion_999.html

http://www.monolake.de/interviews/supercomputing.html

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/why-digital-music-looks-set-to-replace-live-performances/

Psychobabble, I think you’re being a little harsh on last monk. I appreciate the props but
I can empathize with his misunderstanding of this whole issue.

Lastmonk - you again listed links to articles which are all old, some dating back to 2010.
And the majority of them were written by non-musician bystanders observing what they think is some kind of fascinating phenomenon. These authors remind me of the hayseed
hillbillies who marveled at Colonel Tom Parker’s dancing chicken attraction back before he
became Elvis’ manager.

Computer playback (touring acts refer to this simply as “Pro Tools") has long been a staple of live performances. It’s economically advantageous because you don’t have to hire all the
extra musicians to play the parts. Secondly, audiences come to shows expecting to hear what’s on the record which is, guess what, done with keyboards, samples, and synthesizers. One, two, or even four keyboardists cannot possibly emulate en entire
orchestra with its 40 to 150 independent players. Because a player only has two hands.

Most TV and film music is done by professional composers who are keyboard players and
programmers as well. Oftentimes, it’s just one guy doing all the music and delivering it.
There is no budget to hire a 60-piece orchestra and a soundstage for every cue in a film
or show. Music is the last thing budgeted for. That’s why the one-guy-doing-it-all has
become the norm - it’s out of necessity. Film and TV people don’t like to spend money, they like to make money.

Perhaps you’re marveling yourself at Karma and all you can suddenly do with it. That’s
great. But that doesn’t make Karma, or arpeggios, or synthesizers, or drum machines
something revolutionary or even “job-killing”. They’re instruments, that’s all. They don’t play themselves.

You know, when the automobile became popular, horse-drawn buggy manufacturers were irate about it. And going forward to the introduction of synthesizers and computer playback in Broadway productions, well of course the protest from union musicians over
that was inevitable. But if I was producing a Broadway musical, would I hire in a couple of keyboard players and a Pro Tools playback system? Of course I would. I need to make money, not spend it. That’s all there is to it.

Very good points, all well taken.  So you & presumably Psycho Babble would agree with and I assume believe the following propositions:

1. Digital music technology is not good enough (and never will be) good enough to replace real (human) musicians

2. Digital samples (of real instruments) are not good enough to substitute or replace the real instruments

3. Musicians are being replaced by digital music technologies but only because of budgetary reasons

4. The number of live performances and numbers of (non keyboard playing musicians) have not been negatively affected by digital
music technology except for in situations where cost was the limiting factor.

5.  It is not possible to create, improvise, or compose music using algorithms, inductive logic programming, machine learning, or any other artificial intelligence programming techniques. And even if it was it could not replace or substitute for real live musicians (regardless to the quality of those musicians)

6.  Data mining, Pattern matching, Agent oriented Programming, Computational Intelligence, neural nets, bio-inspired algorithms, evolutionary computation,emergent programming methods cannot now or ever be able to capture human musical composition, improvisation, and spontaneous interaction

7.  The Shite and Cheezy sounding Samples of the Mox 8, and Motif XF cannot now or ever replace the sounds produced by real musicians using real instruments.

8.  Although Musicians may ultimately be replaced by digital technology it was not because of the quality of digital music technology it was because of the economics and profit motive, that just happened to be enabled by digital music technologies.

These propositions are consistent with the positions and opinions that you and Psycho Babble have advanced. I’m not saying they are true or false, but they do represent the argument that is being made.

@Psycho Babble:  You are correct we are intellectually mismatched.

Cheers!  And here’s to never being replaced by Digital Music Technologies.

Psycho Babble you are truly a fascinating cat.

So the designations/insinuations “Snot Nose”, Punk, “Backed up Teenager” ,etc are those always part of the parlance that you direct at folks that you don’t know and happen to encounter on the Motifator forums?  Or has this whole Motif-Karma Question & Answer session been troublesome for you?

What in particular about my questions or statements led you to the conclusion that I was a punk, or had a runny nose, or, or was a teenager, or was constipated?  Is it the length of my posts, content of my posts, or tone of my posts?  Or perhaps was it the fact that I gave examples of what I was posting in the way of web links?  And those examples (the ones that you probably did not read) just happened to be contrary to positions you are attempting to defend.

I don’t believe we’ve met IRL, at least I don’t recall meeting you. So I am a little enticed to discover how someone such as yourself can so crisply form a profile of a person from such limited material.  Actually that’s a pretty interesting ,if not keen set of deductive skills you must have there.

When I grew up we used to say this little rhyme that would go something like:

Sticks & Stones
may break my bones
but names will never hurt me.

Psycho Babble are you familiar with this rhyme?  Did they say it back in the days when you were coming up?  Do you feel there is
something to be learned from such a rhyme?

Back to the topic at hand. Do you have personal experience with the Motif Karma?  If so, what do you think of it?  Do you think that it is possible that Yamaha may include a built in Karma in the next Motif that is released?  It that why there hasn’t been
a new Motif released in a couple of years (the integration of Karma?)

Would a built in Karma be enough to postpone buying a Motif XF now?

BTW I dig Duke Ellington and I’m particularly fond of Cat Anderson.  Actually I’m sequencing a tune he performed called Echoes of Harlem do you know it?  I’m using Arps (some built in, some I’ve made from scratch) and Sampled oboes, bassoons, and clarinets over some very funky post hip hop beats and use a kind of Quincy Jones form to organize the whole thing.  Perhaps when I’m done, I will share, and then we can have a more informed discussion about my personality traits.  But then again a lot can be discerned from how someone responds to strangers over the Internet :-)

Cheers

@ MrMotif…
Since this thread was “moved” to Mo Lounge, can it please disappear from Motif XF?

I’ve heard plenty of “original music” online that is basically Karma output with a little riffing on top. I’m not sure how to classify it. One thing for sure it all basically sounds the same.