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Viewing topic "Adding additional Part(s) to Performance"

   
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Posted on: September 10, 2014 @ 06:23 AM
obrother
Total Posts:  128
Joined  05-09-2003
status: Pro

So in Performance mode I sometimes find myself being just one Part short of all that I need for a particular song on stage.

Sequencing has never been my thing, though I tinker with 4 bar repeating phrases occasionally.

My interest is in Mix mode, where I understand it’s possible to bring in additional Parts...to a Performance.

My concern is that I often use one Part as drums (which is why I often find myself slightly short on layered or available Parts), and I also often have at least two Arpeggios assigned to them.  So I don’t know if Mix mode is meant for just adding Parts/Voices....but at the expense of live adjustment/switching between Drum Arps. 

Any help on what is possible, what is not, and how I can get started is appreciated.  My aim would be to start with a particular Peformance (as opposed to bringing voices into Mix from scratch, which sounds like murder) and get that Performance right into Mix mode to build an additional voice or two.  I do believe I read previously that Mix mode can be used as a ‘Performance’ in that sounds can be layered and played simultaneously (hopefully Arps also), which is what I would require. Thanks much…

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Posted on: September 10, 2014 @ 07:17 AM
cmayhle
Total Posts:  3057
Joined  10-05-2011
status: Guru
obrother - 10 September 2014 06:23 AM

So in Performance mode I sometimes find myself being just one Part short of all that I need for a particular song on stage…

My interest is in Mix mode, where I understand it’s possible to bring in additional Parts...to a Performance.

My concern is that I often use one Part as drums (which is why I often find myself slightly short on layered or available Parts), and I also often have at least two Arpeggios assigned to them.  So I don’t know if Mix mode is meant for just adding Parts/Voices....but at the expense of live adjustment/switching between Drum Arps. 

Any help on what is possible, what is not, and how I can get started is appreciated.  My aim would be to start with a particular Peformance (as opposed to bringing voices into Mix from scratch, which sounds like murder) and get that Performance right into Mix mode to build an additional voice or two.  I do believe I read previously that Mix mode can be used as a ‘Performance’ in that sounds can be layered and played simultaneously (hopefully Arps also), which is what I would require. Thanks much…

With regard to moving PERFORMANCES into MIXING setups:

Moving PERFORMANCES into SONG/PATTERN MIXINGS

With regard to using MIXING setups for up to 16 PARTS “live”:

Using MIXING Setups for Multiple Sounds “Live”

Yes, you can move ARPs into these setups.  See This Article.

Yes, you can play layers and splits in these setups.

Be aware that PARTS you require to play with other PARTS at the same time necessitate that they are set to the same MIDI receive channel.  So, if you require drums to sound throughout a song, the other PARTS that you want to play along with the drums will need to be on the drum PART MIDI channel.

The one thing you won’t get with these setups is the ability to use the (8) sliders for individual PART volume control.  MASTER MODE will solve this...but first things first!

Take a look at these documents...which explain these procedures very well...and post back with any further questions.

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Posted on: September 10, 2014 @ 04:46 PM
obrother
Total Posts:  128
Joined  05-09-2003
status: Pro

Thanks very much for that.  I’ve been digging into all the material and doing hands on.  I’ve gotten as far as copying a Performance into Pattern, which is a first for me.  I had some difficulty getting to the proper Pattern screens as I read a couple different things by different folks as far as what to press in what order (Performance, then Pattern, then Mix, etc). But I think I sorted that out. 

So I sort of understand the concept of a Performance copied to Pattern automatically putting all the sounds on to one midi channel so everything (including drum arp) can be played at once, but it’s been a terrible learning curve and a lot of trial and error beyond that (sort of like DMX with lights...but worse).  Here’s where I’m having trouble:

Having saved a Performance to Pattern, I now want to add a Part from a different Performance.  I see how changing the midi channels on the Track give you some varied and crazy results if you don’t know what you’re doing...and I don’t.  It doesn’t seem easy as just being able to change a Track (from Pattern Play) and give it the required TxCh to change whatever sound you wish.

So I tried to addd a 5th Part (can’t remember now if I directed it to 5-8, but possible I did) by taking the requisite Part (Part 3) from another Performance and hopeufully pressing the right buttons to get it where I wanted it.  I believe instead that it went to Part 3 (over-rode) of my existing Pattern...instead of taking the Part 3 from the newer Performance.

Prior to that I ‘doubled’ the first Performance I as working with and put those parameters into 5-8 to see what would happen.  Since I had two duplicate drum arps, I was able to do that thing where I could have one drum arp (from 1-4)going and then on whatever page and setting I’d hit the keyboard again and get the second drum arp (from 4-8) going milliseconds or whatever later.  So at least I saw the concept of getting two arps in there, and realizing that 1 slider will affect a group of 4 and let me volume fade that stuff in (in it’s entirety only).

But back to the Pattern I saved and tried to add a 5th Part to: I went to the various pages and Track and Mix screens etc, and I was very confused that, depending on what I did with the TxCh at Pattern Play mode, I could keep the drum arp going but then add stuff, but then suddenly I couldn’t when I went elsewhere there (I know this makes no sense).  And I believe the Voice that took over Part 3....I was able to ‘slider’ the volume up while retaining the drum arp.  My understanding, and concern, was that I ‘would not’ be able to have individual volume control for Parts as I do in Performance.  For some combination of Voices (or maybe at least one), it appeared I did though.

I’m just a mess basically, but I did get this started at least.  If you could help further I’d definitely appreciate it.  Maybe the best thing is to just instruct me on how to add a 5th Part to my existing Pattern, though I welcome any other info on my travails.  Thanks very much.....

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Posted on: September 11, 2014 @ 09:35 AM
joesax
Total Posts:  185
Joined  03-11-2009
status: Pro

I have had similar issues but where I get stopped is trying to play a Mix live and switching between ARP Variations. I get one going but can’t figure out how to have the other 4 ARPs available similar to straight Performance mode. I believe I need to do something with Scenes. It’s a mystery inside an enigma or maybe not possible. So I stay in Performance mode.

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Posted on: September 11, 2014 @ 11:52 AM
chasmanian
Total Posts:  319
Joined  01-26-2014
status: Enthusiast

I soooooo feel your pain.
I tried and eventually gave up.
I also just stay in performance mode.
Thats a bummer.
But, that said, even with that limit, the XF8 is positively magical to me.
I love it more than words can say.

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Posted on: September 11, 2014 @ 12:23 PM
cmayhle
Total Posts:  3057
Joined  10-05-2011
status: Guru
obrother - 10 September 2014 04:46 PM

Thanks very much for that.  I’ve been digging into all the material and doing hands on.  I’ve gotten as far as copying a Performance into Pattern, which is a first for me.  I had some difficulty getting to the proper Pattern screens as I read a couple different things by different folks as far as what to press in what order (Performance, then Pattern, then Mix, etc). But I think I sorted that out. 

So I sort of understand the concept of a Performance copied to Pattern automatically putting all the sounds on to one midi channel so everything (including drum arp) can be played at once, but it’s been a terrible learning curve and a lot of trial and error beyond that (sort of like DMX with lights...but worse).  Here’s where I’m having trouble:

Having saved a Performance to Pattern, I now want to add a Part from a different Performance....

I stopped your post right there, because honestly beyond that point I got extremely confused by the narrative.

So...you copied a PERFORMANCE to a PATTERN, all of the PARTS are on the same MIDI Receive channel, so all of the PARTS sound together (when the note-limits, etc. allow them to be heard), you have confirmed.

Now you would like to add a 5th PART to your PATTERN?  OK, why do you want to add that PART from another PERFORMANCE?  Is it possible we (you) can add the PART from the VOICE that the other PERFORMANCE is pointing to?  This might be a simpler approach, with the goal of gaining an understanding of the mechanics involved in building a PATTERN MIXING with multiple PARTS for live performance.

Here are a couple of references to take a look at:

Mixing Setup Procedure, page 189 of the XF Reference Manual.  This section summarizes where you need to go to start the procedure of adding an additional PART.  It is the MIXING you must get to, so familiarize yourself with the procedure of getting to the MIXING of a PATTERN (SONG).

Next, see Mixing Play mode on page 190.  This is the main MIXING screen, and this is where you start when Editing or Adding to the MIXING.

Next, take a look at Part Edit parameters on page 194.  The screen you see on the bottom of the page...Part Basic Settings—[F1] Voice...is ground zero for setting up the basic parameters for each PART 1-16.  When you are in MIXING Edit, and hit the PART (5) button on the front panel, you will get this screen for PART (5).  You have PARTS in each of the PARTS 1-4 that you brought in from a PERFORMANCE...now you want to add a 5th PART.

First thing to do is go to Param. with Voice, and select it to be ON (You took a look at the Parameter with VOICE article?).  Next, go up to the top and select the same Receive Channel as your PARTS 1-4 are on (probably channel 1?).

Now, go to Bank and Number and call up the VOICE you want to add...either a Preset or User VOICE.

Now, there are obviously lots of other parameter settings and setup choices you could make, but what you have just done is to add a 5th PART to your PATTERN...not from a PERFORMANCE, but from a VOICE location.  Plus, you have set it to sound with the other (4) PARTS by using a singe common Receive Channel for all (5) PARTS.  You have the ability on the same screen (for each PART individually) to set note limits and ranges.  This is what you will use to set up where on the keyboard each PART will sound.

Give that a try and see if it all goes well.

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Posted on: September 11, 2014 @ 01:28 PM
chasmanian
Total Posts:  319
Joined  01-26-2014
status: Enthusiast

you’re in the best of hands with cmayhle helping you.
I am watching this thread with great interest.
you’re a great teacher cmayhle.
(you too 5pinDIN.)

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Posted on: September 11, 2014 @ 03:49 PM
5pinDIN
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chasmanian - 11 September 2014 01:28 PM

you’re in the best of hands with cmayhle helping you.
I am watching this thread with great interest.
you’re a great teacher cmayhle.
(you too 5pinDIN.)

Thanks for the vote of confidence, but I’ve stayed out of this discussion since cmayhle is doing such a good job.

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Posted on: September 11, 2014 @ 05:53 PM
chasmanian
Total Posts:  319
Joined  01-26-2014
status: Enthusiast

thank you again 5pinDIN. you and cmayhle have helped so many of us, so much.
I am very grateful to both of you.

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Posted on: September 12, 2014 @ 04:51 AM
obrother
Total Posts:  128
Joined  05-09-2003
status: Pro

Cmayhayle,

Thanks for all of that.

It’s not the first time I’ve been accused of not having a steady, comprehensible, stream of thought.  I’m happy you got as far as you did, though...perhaps try to sift through the remainder in case you can make heads/tails out of any part of it.  The one notable concern was whether I should be able to have any individual control over a Part volume in Pattern.  I thought I was getting mixed results depending on midi channel and slider use and other variables I have absolutely no recollection of now.

Regarding why I attempted to bring a Part in from a Performance:  Simple, I didn’t want to start from scratch and have to bring in effects/eq’s or whatever other variables could be at play.  So, I found a Part from an otherwise equal Performance (two identical Performances except one has ‘one’ different Part that couldn’t squeeze into the other Performance), and tried to load that since it has all the requisite parameters that I like.

I didn’t know realize at first blush that is wasn’t possible.  I will read (online, evidently) those pages and try your way and post back if I have further issues (likely!).  Thanks again as always....

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Posted on: September 12, 2014 @ 06:53 AM
obrother
Total Posts:  128
Joined  05-09-2003
status: Pro

Ok, I have to confess that I’m not getting this after reading the material.

The premise here is that I’ve succesfully put a Performance into a Pattern.  As might be typical, that consists of 4 Parts. I believe that once that is done, I no longer have control over individual volumes of those 4 Parts, as they needed to be set in the original Performance or reset/stored in the MIXING page...would that be correct as a starting place?  If so, I believe I understand that it’s because the four Parts from Performance were routed to one midi channel.  And for some reason, therefore, one only has the option of deating/muting what is one Tr/Midi channel (whether it be one voice or multiple).  My second question on that is, what about when you add an additional singular voice to another TxCh....do you still have no individual volume control over it?

Continuing.....When I save this new Pattern I see only the name of Part 1 (drum kit) when I go to Pattern Play.  It is under Tr 1.  Tr 2,3,4 are blank. All others default to Full Concert Grand.  When I play, the drum arp comes on as it does in Performance and all 4 Voices/Parts play as they should.  All good.

What I don’t see in the manual pages, is what one does when they’re at this point (presumably a popular starting part for a Pattern) if one wants to simply add another Part to this existing Pattern.  Not saying it’s not there, I just don’t see it spelled out easily enough for me.

So I have my Performance saved in Pattern. Then I attempted to add a Part.  I go to Mixing and bring in a Part/Voice for Part 5.  This is where it gets wacky for me.  First an observation:  In Mixing, when I press Arp on, the drum arp, as saved from my Performance, will play no matter where I set/scroll the ‘long/thin vertical box’ that specifies was Part you wish to edit. 

However, other functions sort of change. Once I get to Part 5, where I just placed a horn patch, the drum arp continues but I no longer hear Parts 2-4 (no bass, key, strng).  And interestingly, the drum arp will no longer START play from Part 5 onward, it will only continue if previously pressed from Parts 1-4.  Normal I presume, due to settings. So back to Part 5, all I hear is a horn.

I got to Pattern Play and see Track 5 lists my horn patch. It’s hightlighted, and it’s all I hear.  Nothing to edit on that patch, I to Track page where I presume is where I now need to go to make this all come together. Once again Tr 5 is highlighted and it was given TxCH 5 which seems to make sense.  When I change it to TxCH 1...thinking that’s the ticket, it instead changes my Tr listing to match what is in Tr 1 (drum name).  And in essence it functions/sounds just like I’m on Tr 1 with my regular/original Performance.  This is where I’m running around in circles trying to just get that 5th Part to play simultaneously with the other 4 Parts.  Is there a different location I’m supposed to go to change the TxCh on my horn patch to TxCH1?  Hope this specificity helps...thanks for your continued help.

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Posted on: September 12, 2014 @ 05:17 PM
cmayhle
Total Posts:  3057
Joined  10-05-2011
status: Guru
obrother - 12 September 2014 06:53 AM

Ok, I have to confess that I’m not getting this after reading the material.

The premise here is that I’ve succesfully put a Performance into a Pattern.  As might be typical, that consists of 4 Parts. I believe that once that is done, I no longer have control over individual volumes of those 4 Parts, as they needed to be set in the original Performance or reset/stored in the MIXING page...would that be correct as a starting place?  If so, I believe I understand that it’s because the four Parts from Performance were routed to one midi channel.  And for some reason, therefore, one only has the option of deating/muting what is one Tr/Midi channel (whether it be one voice or multiple).  My second question on that is, what about when you add an additional singular voice to another TxCh....do you still have no individual volume control over it?....

As I mentioned in a previous post, there is a way to get back individual PART volume control with the sliders on up to (8) PARTS of a SONG or PATTERN by using MASTER Mode, and activating ZONES.

However, this is dependent on first being able to populate a SONG or PATTERN MIXING with your chosen PARTS...either by Copying a PERFORMANCE into a MIXING, and/or adding PARTS to the MIXING one at a time.

Have you been successful constructing a MIXING using a PERFORMANCE for PARTS 1-4 and adding a 5th PART on its own?

Just to give you different sources of information so one may “click”, take a look at This Thread

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Posted on: September 13, 2014 @ 03:47 PM
chasmanian
Total Posts:  319
Joined  01-26-2014
status: Enthusiast

hey obrother, cmayhle has been helping me too, with what I think is a similar objective.
I just had some success. I’m posting a link to my thread, in hopes that it may help you and anyone else that is interested in this:
http://www.motifator.com/index.php/forum/viewthread/473279/

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Posted on: September 14, 2014 @ 05:09 PM
obrother
Total Posts:  128
Joined  05-09-2003
status: Pro

Thanks to Cmayhle and Chasmanian for the suggestons and help.

The key to resolving my issue was found in the link for “Mixing setup for live use article question”.  I was having the exact issue as Jerrydpi.  The missing link, for both of us, was Bad Mister’s specific instruction regarding ‘Mix, to Edit, to Part, To F1 to SF1, To MIDI receive channel, and then changing 1-16 to the required destination. 

With that, I was finally able to add a 5th (and 6th) part to an otherwise needy Performance while in Pattern and new vistas immediately opened, and some very old dilemmas were solved.  Used it in live performance last night, can’t believe I didn’t explore this sooner.

Two remaining problems to sort out:

1) As previously mentioned, I had a concern about bringing in other drum arps from my Performance to the Pattern.  I read the link provided, but it was not helpful (to me) in that it referenced adding a ‘Voice’ (and its accompanying arps to the Pattern).  It didn’t seem to address my issue, and I haven’t found the answer elsewhere.

When I copied my Performance to Pattern, it took with it only the drum arp that was indicated (chosen as default for the stored Performance).  So that leaves me with one or two additional drum arps I may want/need to bring over...from that specific Performance. 

I tried this: I edited the Performance in question so one of the other drum arps I needed was now the ‘default’.  With that, I then copied it to the same Pattern but used a higher Mix Part (9-12).  By appropriating the drum arp, only, to the same Midi channel as Parts 1-4 (Midi channel ‘1’), I as able to have that arp play or not play via the Mute button.  So I was at least able to get a second drum arp in there.  But it came at the expense of having Parts 10-12 duplicate the other Voices/Parts in the Pattern unnecessarily (though I could now just replace them).  I’d have to duplicate the process for a third drum arp and I’m quite certain that I’m going about this in the wrong way, especially since I’m copying 4 Parts, and using up 4 ‘Current Mix Parts’ just to get to one additional drum arp.  Also, it appears I have to be quick on the fingers as kicking in a second drum arp and then muting the unnecessary one. Help on all that appreciated.

2) Aside from bringing in any additional drum arps, the only remaining problem for me in Pattern is the individual slider volume control.  Drum arp dilemma aside, I am now ready to receive specific instruction on how to gain that slider volume control in Master mode.  And I would be interested to know if/when I reconcile the drum arp situation, if that too should be maneuverable with volume sliders in Master.

Thanks again to all for the help.

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Posted on: September 14, 2014 @ 05:52 PM
chasmanian
Total Posts:  319
Joined  01-26-2014
status: Enthusiast

cmayhle is the one who knows this stuff.
hopefully the following will help you with issue 2.
take everything, knowing that if I’m wrong about anything, its not on purpose.

I successfully associated a Song with a Master. go to my thread.
this is a multi step deal.
for me, it was key to finally understand, that I needed to:
have the MIDI tx (transmit) AND the receive channels routed to their own channels. (the main ZONE switch for the Master also needs to be ON.)
so PART 1 tx AND receive must both be routed on channel 1.
PART 2 tx AND receive channel 2. and so on........
rinse and repeat for all of your PARTS.
after you do things, do the STORE thing often.
when you have things set up, I think you still have to be in mixing. so your in SONG (or PATTERN), then MASTER, then MIXING.

also, there is a MIXING screen, in which PART 1 shows up. PARTS 2, 3 and 4 do not. but then PARTS 5, 6, .......do show up.
also when I use the word PART, it might be interchangeable with the term TRACK. see, I think we’re accomplishing this in a MIXING. they have TRACKS. just like on your DAW.
let me tell you: I have been wanting to do this ever since I got the Motif, many moons ago. I had such a hard time, that I gave up.
fast forward to now. I had continued studying manuals, reading, following threads.....and then tried again.
I finally got it.
it worked for me perfectly.
super thank you to cmayhle.

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Posted on: September 14, 2014 @ 06:13 PM
5pinDIN
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chasmanian - 14 September 2014 05:52 PM

[...]so PART 1 tx AND receive must both be routed on channel 1.
PART 2 tx AND receive channel 2. and so on........
rinse and repeat for all of your PARTS.
after you do things, do the STORE thing often.
when you have things set up, I think you still have to be in mixing. so your in SONG (or PATTERN), then MASTER, then MIXING.

also, there is a MIXING screen, in which PART 1 shows up. PARTS 2, 3 and 4 do not. but then PARTS 5, 6, .......do show up.
also when I use the word PART, it might be interchangeable with the term TRACK. see, I think we’re accomplishing this in a MIXING. they have TRACKS. just like on your DAW.[...]

Well, not quite. The terms “Part” and “Track” are not interchangeable.

Tracks transmit. You can set the channel they transmit on.

Parts receive (they don’t transmit). You can set the channel they receive on.

Kudos to you, chasmanian, for getting things working, and to cmayhle for getting you there. Knowing the above is important to understanding why those things work the way they do.

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