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Viewing topic "Assignable outputs bleeding to main outputs"

   
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Posted on: June 08, 2014 @ 12:00 PM
chrisfischer
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Has anyone had this problem?  I use the assignable outputs on my XF8 exclusively for routing prerecorded background vocals that I store on the internal flash memory. Recently I started noticing that they are bleeding through as a nasty distorted signal to my main outputs. Could this be related to the DC voltage issue and failing resistors I read about on other threads?  I am hoping this is something I can easily solve myself without a bunch of expense and brain damage. Thanks in advance.

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Posted on: June 08, 2014 @ 01:34 PM
Bad_Mister
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Bleeding is a serious injury, time for the repair shop.
I don’t think it is even possible, so either way get that checked out (unless this is some kind of exaggeration about what you’re hearing, I would not even power it on again). Do not pass GO, do not collect the $200, go directly to an authorized repair shop. Let us know what they find.

Never heard of such a thing.

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Posted on: June 08, 2014 @ 02:52 PM
chrisfischer
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It’s possible and it’s happening. It reminds me of a similar problem I have had in the past with the 8 channel analog card for my es8. Those boards would do the same thing after a period of time. The only difference here is that the signal is not as clean. It comes across at a low level and distorted. If i lower the fader for the channel to 0 it obviously stops. It is very frustrating. It is obviously some component on the pcb board failing. My problem is I have a bunch of gigs and cannot afford to be without it. Buying a second Xf as a back up isn’t really a practical option either. Oh well.

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Posted on: June 08, 2014 @ 02:54 PM
scherzo
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I also a problem of this type.  I use the assignable outputs on my XS7 exclusively for routing organ sounds (in song mode).I started noticing that they are “bleeding” through to main outputs (very quietly, but audible).
I explained this problem here and no one ever explained or assumed that this is a bug of Motifs. I just heard say “I had never heard of such a thing.” But this problem exists in the routing Motifs!

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Posted on: June 08, 2014 @ 03:29 PM
chrisfischer
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Exactly, in song mode. Kind of defeats the purpose of having assignable outputs. I have to assume it’s an issue with a board. Techs at yamaha are familiar with the bleeding problem on the 8 out analog card. I bet it’s the same sort of issue. Honestly if it was only bleeding at a low level I wouldn’t be as troubled. But it’s the accompanying distortion that really is bad. This sort of thing shouldn’t be happening with a $3500 work station especially with no explanation.

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Posted on: June 08, 2014 @ 05:31 PM
Bad_Mister
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Both of you should take it to an authorized service center, like yesterday.

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Posted on: June 09, 2014 @ 06:43 AM
5pinDIN
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chrisfischer - 08 June 2014 12:00 PM

Has anyone had this problem?  I use the assignable outputs on my XF8 exclusively for routing prerecorded background vocals that I store on the internal flash memory. Recently I started noticing that they are bleeding through as a nasty distorted signal to my main outputs.

I’ve never experienced such a problem with either my XS6 or XF6.

Is it noticeable on headphones plugged into the PHONES jack of the XF8?

Are you monitoring the main outputs of the XF8 directly? ...or are the XF8’s main and assignable outputs being fed to a mixer, and the monitoring being done at/after the mixer?

 

chrisfischer -

Could this be related to the DC voltage issue and failing resistors I read about on other threads?  I am hoping this is something I can easily solve myself without a bunch of expense and brain damage. Thanks in advance.

I haven’t seen other threads discussing this. Could you provide links to them?

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Posted on: June 09, 2014 @ 06:56 AM
chrisfischer
Total Posts:  43
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I am running through a radial 8 channel DI. The DI feeds the FOH mixer but also splits to a line mixer that feeds a Roland Keyboard amp for onstage monitoring. The problem is noticeable in both places. I am going to check this week and see if it happens if I use the SPDIF output.  I have a feeling it will not.  The threads I was referring to dealt with the muting transistors not resistors. Sorry for the typo/mix up. Both were actually your responses. :-)

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Posted on: June 09, 2014 @ 06:58 AM
chrisfischer
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I will also check if it is noticeable through the headphone jack.

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Posted on: June 09, 2014 @ 07:23 AM
5pinDIN
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chrisfischer - 09 June 2014 06:58 AM

I will also check if it is noticeable through the headphone jack.

Checking there would be revealing, because the analog stages are being used - unlike at the S/PDIF output, as you apparently understand.

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Posted on: June 09, 2014 @ 11:49 AM
chrisfischer
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Joined  01-03-2005
status: Regular

Thank you 5pinDIN for your input.  I just checked everything we discussed above and found the following:

1 - Anything assigned to the AS-L and AS-R (in stereo or mono) is leaking badly through to the Main LR outputs at almost HALF the normal signal level.  (Ridiculously loud, not just a little bleeding A LOT of bleeding.)

2 - My vocal samples are leaking through very distorted because they were mastered hot and I have them triggering at full velocity (127).  If I trigger them at half the velocity they do not distort but still bleed through to the MAIN LR at close to half the level.  (Please note their signal through AS-L and AS-R are NOT distorted at full velocity, ONLY the signal that is bleeding into the MAIN LR is distorted)

3 - The signal is NOT bleeding into the Headphone Output nor obviously the digital SPDF.

Also, both the tests above were conducted with the outputs routed through the Radial DI8 and also directly to the Keyboard amp with identical results in both scenarios.

I really think this is a component issue on the output board.  It seems like it is exactly the same thing as what I have encountered on the 8 channel analog output boards I use on my ES keyboards.

What do you think?  Thanks!

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Posted on: June 09, 2014 @ 11:55 AM
chrisfischer
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Joined  01-03-2005
status: Regular

I have attached a video that illustrates the issue.

File Attachments
MOTIF.MOV  (File Size: 3402KB - Downloads: 206)
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Posted on: June 09, 2014 @ 12:15 PM
Bad_Mister
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What do you think?  Thanks!

I think you ought to take your instrument to an authorized service center. I thought I was clear enough.

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Posted on: June 09, 2014 @ 01:22 PM
5pinDIN
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chrisfischer - 09 June 2014 11:49 AM

Thank you 5pinDIN for your input.  I just checked everything we discussed above and found the following:

1 - Anything assigned to the AS-L and AS-R (in stereo or mono) is leaking badly through to the Main LR outputs at almost HALF the normal signal level.  (Ridiculously loud, not just a little bleeding A LOT of bleeding.)

2 - My vocal samples are leaking through very distorted because they were mastered hot and I have them triggering at full velocity (127).  If I trigger them at half the velocity they do not distort but still bleed through to the MAIN LR at close to half the level.  (Please note their signal through AS-L and AS-R are NOT distorted at full velocity, ONLY the signal that is bleeding into the MAIN LR is distorted)

3 - The signal is NOT bleeding into the Headphone Output nor obviously the digital SPDF.

Since the bleeding is not showing up at the PHONES jack (even though the XF’s headphone amplifier inputs are connected near to the main outputs), a bit more clarification could help pin this down…

chrisfischer -

Also, both the tests above were conducted with the outputs routed through the Radial DI8 and also directly to the Keyboard amp with identical results in both scenarios.

I really think this is a component issue on the output board.  It seems like it is exactly the same thing as what I have encountered on the 8 channel analog output boards I use on my ES keyboards.

What do you think?  Thanks!

If the bleeding is noticeable when the main outputs alone are connected directly to an amp, then it points to leakage between the channels occurring very near the output jacks. Leaky muting transistors have been known to be a cause of that. It’s easy enough for a qualified technician to check for that - DC showing up at the output is a typical sign.

By the way, are the “8 channel analog output boards I use on my ES keyboards” you’re referring to AIEB2 units?

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Posted on: June 09, 2014 @ 02:42 PM
chrisfischer
Total Posts:  43
Joined  01-03-2005
status: Regular

Thanks again 5pinDIN.

Yes those are the 8 channel analog output board I am referring to.  So far you have been confirming my assessment of the situation.  I think it is leaking muting transistors.  I assume that is the same problem the AIEB2 boards had too (in fact I have 2 or 3 I need to repair as ALL of them failed after a period of time.) I spoke with a tech at Yamaha that couldn’t officially tell me what to do but finally gave me some direction that I believe you will hopefully be able confirm.  They first recommended I back it up and do a factory reset.  I probably am due to update the firmware anyway so I will try this but am not counting on it taking care of the problem.  Second, she said I could order and replace the JA Circuit board.  She said the other board that could cause a problem like this would be the DM board but that if everything else is working properly it isn’t likely that one.  They also told me that the DM board is very expensive.  I assume that replacing the JA board will probably take care of the problem because it will have brand new muting transistors.  I have read in your other posts that you have replaced the transistors on the board.  I could probably do that as well or buy the new board for $170 and swap it.  I could even change the transistors on that board and keep in on a shelf ready to go when the new board fails.  Most Motif users probably do not use the Assignable outputs regularly like I do.  So I bet many folks have this problem and don’t even know they do because they simply don’t use the AS outputs.  I absolutely depend on them. I had mentioned before I cannot be without my XF for weeks due to my gig schedule and therefore cannot simply take it to a service center.  I will measure the voltage on the outputs to see if they are showing leakage.  Other than that I can try ordering the JA board (or replacing the transistors or both) and I can get by with my upcoming gigs by using the SPDF output to FOH temporarily.  Let me know what you think.

Thanks again 5pinDIN!

Chris Fischer

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Posted on: June 09, 2014 @ 02:58 PM
chrisfischer
Total Posts:  43
Joined  01-03-2005
status: Regular

FYI - Just measured the the Main outputs with a meter and the right side is measuring 2 volts, left side zero, (though both sides actually are leaking signal.) Sounds just like your other thread with the popping issue.  I assume the transistors are the same type 2SC2878 used in the XF as ES?  Are these also the same on the AIEB2 boards too?

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