Old Motifator threads are available in the Archive.
Michael Trigoboff
Total Posts: 647
Joined 09-05-2011 status: Guru |
The main reason I’m considering buying a Tyros5 is that there aren’t enough Performances on my XF7. When I’m putting a song together, I often can’t find a Performance that sounds like what I need. This problem is compounded by my lack of talent when it comes to creating a custom Performance. I tend to wander lost among the many Voices and Arpeggios, and I often can’t manage to put together what I vaguely hear in my head. If someone sold a high-quality add-on library of Performances, I’d be delighted to buy it, and then I might be able to do the kinds of things I’m currently unable to do on my XF7. (Plus, it would save me the $$$ that a Tyros5 costs.) Are such libraries available? If not, is a Tyros5 a plausible answer to this problem? |
richie1027
Total Posts: 686
Joined 10-14-2008 status: Guru |
I just posted on the other thread you started Michael, a comment requesting the same....... Hope this stimulates a call to action by someone entrepreneurial and talented with performance creation! It’ll be interesting to see if this “want” is shared by others or simply dismissed. |
digitalperformer7
Total Posts: 253
Joined 12-07-2011 status: Enthusiast |
Creating Performances “on demand” is extremely challenging, that’s why nobody will do it for money… because this money will be always too short if compared with the time spent to program them.
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Bad_Mister
Total Posts: 36620
Joined 07-30-2002 status: Moderator |
Here is my two and a half cents on the subject: It is not making PERFORMANCES that is at issue, because making a PERFORMANCE is about the easiest thing you can do on a Motif-series, MOX-series, or S-series synthesizer. Let’s face it - a PERFORMANCE is a matter of combining four VOICES into a single PROGRAM. It is the ARPEGGIOS that are what you are talking about. So let’s call it what it is. After all, combining a Drum Kit, a Bass, a Keyboard and a Guitar would suffice for most popular songs. What we are really talking about here is Arpeggio Phrase creation. you want someone to program soundalike Drum grooves, soundalike Bass lines, and soundalike guitar and keyboard parts that can be assembled into a Performance so that you can perform the song and sound like the recording. Well, once you learn what makes a good arpeggio phrase, then you will realize that all you need to do is purchase a well constructed soundalike MIDI file and convert the data yourself. The skill is in recognizing what data would make a “good” arpeggio phrase. This takes the knowledge of basic “rules” of arpeggio creation. the Rules of Style making are similar to the Rules of Arpeggio creation. A good STYLE or a good ARPEGGIO Phrase is one that allows the player to do something. It does not contain chord changes - let’s take, as an example, a simple but powerfully useful music genre that lends itself to this type of thing. As a genre, the Bossa Nova conjures a specific type of swaying groove and instrumentation - so much so that we can play scores of songs in this genre using a basic instrumentation and approach to rhythm. Please notice that CHORD CHANGES are left for the “user” to apply - this is very important in creating the STYLE or ARP PHRASE - The RULES state that you can only use 16 unique notes - this points toward one specific tonal center - take the Bossa Nova phrases they are based around a single key. The player (user) is responsible for each and every chord change (this is the essential thing about good arpeggios and makes them different from just a linear MIDI File). So even something as simple as a IIm7 - V7 is not recorded into the phrase data. It would be the player’s responsibility to voice the minor 7 chord and then at the appropriate time voice the dominant 7 chord. No “good” arpeggio would do this automatically… although nothing would prevent you from creating such a phrase - what I’m saying is, if you did, it would be very limiting to others who did not understand that you programmed both chords into the phrase. And would restrict them as to where and how they could use it. It would be the definition of a not good arpeggio because of this restriction. A “good” arpeggio Phrase would allow the player to decide where and when the chords change. Otherwise just record a linear SONG or PATTERN Section and play along with it. If you put chord movement into your phrases they become LESS universally useful. Okay all that said to say this… looking for new ARP PHRASES? - learn to listen to music with the ear of an ARP PHRASE maker - that is, learn to recognize what would make a good arpeggio phrase. Then learn how to capture that data. YamahaMusicSoft.com is a web resource for soundalike MIDI data. There are tons of MIDI file resources. You can take most any MIDI File and with a good ear for recognizing what would make a good Phrase, you can start to create your own “Performances” with arpeggios. This is just the kind of topic I hope to get into with upcoming USER GROUP. (come July)
Genre Examples:
So in creating this PERFORMANCE and more specifically the arpeggio phrases that make it up, the author of data had to deconstruct what would make a good soundalike representation to capture the mood and feel of the SONG “Africa” without actually playing the CHORD CHANGES. Study this particular one versus the actual song - that is what a ‘good’ arpeggio’d Performance allows the user to do… capture the mood and feel of the SONG without the phrase actually playing the actual Song changes. When you develop an ear for this you can convert most any MIDI file that has decent musical parts into a useful Arpeggio and therefore into a universally useful PERFORMANCE. It still is a skill - to recognize what would make a good ARPEGGIO Phrase, and to isolate and capture the essence of the song - but this should get you started. You will find that not all songs lend themselves to becoming good arpeggios. Some leave you with too much to do, others leave you with not enough to do (as the “user” of the PERFORMANCE). |
meatballfulton
Total Posts: 3022
Joined 01-25-2005 status: Guru |
Most Motif voice libraries include performances using the new voices. I never use them, I actually find performances pretty limiting. Performances have a huge limitation: they point to voices in the instrument by location, consider all the posts here where players load new voices or move voices around in memory and are surprised to find the performances are out of whack. Third part performances are forced to use the factory presets or come with their own voice libraries. That’s my guess why you don’t see performances being sold standalone. I have used a few Yamaha “arranger” products, like the QY10 and DJX. These date back to the 1990s and are primitive ancestors of the Tyros which is the pinnacle of arranger development (as it should be for the $$$$$$$$) but they still do things like react to the chord voicings you use, offer style variations, fills, intros and outros. etc. Arrangers are great for just jamming on tunes, no need to spend hours programing sequences for each part. They work well with DAWs, just record the MIDI out of the instrument (DJX spits out parts across 8 MIDI channels!) and you can edit and tweak your jamming then use this to drive a Motif (loaded with appropriate voices of course). I’ve even experimented with recording the DJX MIDI output direct to the Motif XF sequencer. Early arrangers are limited to the styles programmed at the factory. Modern arrangers get around this by letting you load style files that expand the factory selections. As of today Yamaha has 896 styles (!!!!) available here with a range of prices. I have also seen third party style files for sale. My opinion: rolling your own arpeggios and performances on a Motif is great for those with time on their hands, arrangers are fantastic for those who just want to play. PS looking forward to this User Group that Phil mentioned. |
DavePolich
Total Posts: 6820
Joined 07-27-2002 status: Guru |
As a “third-party developer”, I can comment on this.
First of all, there are three DCP (that’s me) libraries that provide Performances which incorporate the voices that belong to these libraries.....Complete Orchestra, Axxe, and
A “performances-only” library would require that the only voices used would be preset voices, no user voices could be employed because there is no guarantee that end users
Bad Mister was a bit kind in his thorough reply. In my usual blunt fashion, my response to
For my live tribute band shows, I do indeed have performances created for each of the songs in our sets. Each performance contains custom voices I made for the sounds I would need for each song. Sometimes I use as many as 8 voices for a particular song, so I create two performances for such a song, and then live I find appropriate “dead moments” where I can switch to the second performance, or back to the first one, and continue playing. None of my performances contain drumkits or drum patterns because we have a live drummer and he covers that. |
Michael Trigoboff
Total Posts: 647
Joined 09-05-2011 status: Guru |
Thanks, Bad_Mister. A lot to think about there. I just went to http://www.yamahamusicsoft.com and immediately ran into a problem: they want you to select your instrument, but Motif is not one of the choices. I hope I’m missing something obvious… |
Michael Trigoboff
Total Posts: 647
Joined 09-05-2011 status: Guru |
Thanks to help from Bad_Mister and the other experts around here, I don’t use Performances to play songs like I did when I was starting out. I use Performances to record into a Song. Then I split the Song into Sections of a Pattern. Then I either use the Pattern as is, or put together a Pattern Chain and record that back into a Song. |
Michael Trigoboff
Total Posts: 647
Joined 09-05-2011 status: Guru |
I see the point about Performances pointing to particular Voice locations, something obvious which hadn’t occurred to me. Thanks to those who pointed it out. |
Bad_Mister
Total Posts: 36620
Joined 07-30-2002 status: Moderator |
YamahaMusicSoft is primarily for Arranger type STYLE-based keyboards, PSR, Tyros, Clavinova, Electones, etc. The only area of interest to Music Production Synthesizer owners would be the soundalike MIDI files. One way to differentiate between the Arranger type customer and the Music Production customer is just what you see here at this MusicSoft website… The Arranger customer wants data that will update their Style engine with appropriate Intros, Main Sections and Endings, etc… The Music Production customer wants mostly to record their own data. But will every now and then download a MIDI file which they will “borrow” from as necessary… You will not find Motif XF specific data on that site. There is no real market selling content like this to Motif customers, not near on the scale of the arranger customer base. If and when that changes I would imagine there will be more data of that kind. What you want to do when you go to that website is ignore the INSTRUMENT specific type stuff… On the top where it says “ALL PRODUCTS”, go to that pull down and click on MIDI FILES… There are literally hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of MIDI files… And like any MIDI File, it will select the GM bank of your XF and you will want to “borrow” and reprogram Voice selection and some parts, etc. Music Production customers want to do it themselves or artfully “borrow” from MIDI files… If you are looking for pre-made data to be Songs for the Motif series, I don’t think so… Not much market for it. Until then, audition some of those soundalike MIDI files… But expect to do some work with the data to make work in the XF. |
richie1027
Total Posts: 686
Joined 10-14-2008 status: Guru |
Quick comment on BadMisters arpeggio reference. I’ve purchased a number of loop libraries lately in midi format, looking for those that suit my taste. I then use the convert to arpeggio job in pattern mode. It was painstaking at first and took som work in making sure I converted them consistent to C3 but out of approx 500 initial conversions I got abou 325 very workable arpeggios for piano, guitar and about35-40forhorns, violin and other instruments. Using melas wave editor I could then easily Rena,e them all categorically and then set up files for oth my XF and XS, which I use on the road. I continue to work on skills withthis, but it has allowed me to revisit the original performances and morph them further to my taste. This never gets old. Nice thread Mostof you contributors are so far out of my league that it’s humbling tohave y’all share feedback and tips without huge egos and arrogance (for the most part). Edited for spelling. Ipad autocorrect has mind of its own |
Michael Trigoboff
Total Posts: 647
Joined 09-05-2011 status: Guru |
I’m curious to find out which loop libraries you purchased. I might be interested in doing the same. |
jazz.preest
Total Posts: 263
Joined 06-06-2013 status: Enthusiast |
Michael, along the lines of finding “soundalike MIDI” files and leveraging those to develop arpeggios, performances, patterns and songs, have you looked into Band-in-a-Box as a style-based MIDI SONG ‘generator’? I find BiaB very useful in quickly constructing cover song chord changes, auditioning against targeted genre styles (particularly rock, jazz, r&b;, country)and previewing my MOX VOICES while I explore the changes. I can then “drag-and-drop” into Cubase, clean up the MIDI and move to the MOX SONG mode if I want to construct arps and related PERFORMANCES. Also, for EDM genres (a MOX strong suit),I can use the MOX arps, PERFORMANCES and SONG creation strengths to create BiaB EDM styles. Might be a useful tool for you. Btw, PGMusic offers deep discounts in December when they release their latest version. Cheers. |
motidave
Total Posts: 426
Joined 10-03-2010 status: Enthusiast |
Curious, Dave, what tributes do you do nowadays? (sorry to digress the entire forum. again.). |
DavePolich
Total Posts: 6820
Joined 07-27-2002 status: Guru |
Heart and Pat Benatar. |
motidave
Total Posts: 426
Joined 10-03-2010 status: Enthusiast |
Awesome. Before my tribute phase, my last cover band played several Hearth and PB songs. Now I’m doing just tribs: Cars, Bowie, Bon Jovi, and UFO. Each is alot of fun for different reasons (to me). thanks to you for many of the voices I use (primarily from VK and BK, and if you recall, a couple you special programmed on consignment), I always have people come up to me after every show who are blown away at how accurate the voices are to the original classic recordings, it really brings them back to life! |