DavePolich - 14 May 2014 01:24 PM

...So...you can either have 1 2GB Mutec
board or two 1GB boards. But the loading time
would be the same in either scenario, and
as Mutec themselves state, you cannot
exceed the addressable waveform or memory
limit....

DavePolich, it is my understanding that we are talking about the ability to install (2) 2GB boards in the XF, vs (2) 1GB boards.

In other words, 4GB total Flash as opposed to 2GB.

With either the Chick Corea Library example from 5pinDIN...or the stated possibility of double the Flash volume for things like vocal sample tracks, or guitar sample tracks, etc....this would be a very powerful upgrade if it performs as reported.

Using the sampler as a storage device for triggered vocal or external instruments as synced recorded tracks in building SONGS and PATTERNS really is a big deal, and this could double the capacity to do these Flash-hogging activities.

5-pin Din said -

“Nobody besides yourself brought up the issue of loading time. The point that I made was that Chick’s Mark V is huge (400MB), but has few (five) WAVs. I had considered Chick’s Mark V not worth keeping installed because it hogged so much valuable space, but if larger flash memory is available then it’s less of a problem.

I respectfully suggest that you look at the evidence presented on the German site. Google Translate isn’t perfect, but it’s adequate. If nothing else, please look at the pictures that DschoKeys linked to.”

Yeah I looked at the pictures. DschoKeys’ FL1 picture shows some alias files, with remaining memory listed as “1 M”. The FL2 picture shows some actual .wav files, with remaining memory listed as “2M”. That tells me nothing.

You have two pails. One can hold 2 gallons. One can hold 1 gallon. But the most you
can withdraw from either or both pails at the same time is - 2 gallons. It wouldn’t matter if you have two two-gallon pails - you cannot withdraw 4 gallons of water at once - you can still only withdraw two gallons.

I’ll concede it is handy to, for example, store Chick’s Mark V (400 MB) to one flashboard and still have room for approx. 600 MB of waveforms. But if you have two 1 GB flashboards, you would still be able to put Chick’s Mark V on one of them, fill up the rest of that flashboard, and put up to 1 GB of sample waveforms in the second flashboard. Regardless, the amount of “leftover” space that can be addressed on either flashboard is exactly the same. So what’s the major difference? Price is the only one I can think of, and I’ll concede on that point.

Loading time is the same regardless of which brand of flashboard you buy. I pointed that
out because it needed to be pointed out and no one else did.

Let’s move on to “the ability to play back longer .wav files as backing tracks”. Well, yes,
that is a good point..but how many backing tracks can you honestly use before you
fill up the memory with JUST those? Not enough to be practical during a live performance.

It might sound mean or arrogant, but the fact is that no professional touring act uses
flashboards to play backing tracks. Seriously, it’s Pro Tools (about 75%) with the remaining playback DAW’s being Logic, Cubase, and Digital Performer, in that order.
Among the many reasons to do this, one of the most significant is that .wav files played
back from the flashboard have to be triggered as events from the Motif’s sequencer.
If your event is at bar 11 and you want to move to bar 64 and begin playback there, guess what - you won’t hear your .wav file “at bar 64” because you have to rewind to
bar 10, before the trigger event occurs, and start playback there. People get this idea
that playback of .wav files from the sequencer works like a CD player that you can
fast forward or rewind to a point anywhere in a track. It doesn’t. That is why professional
touring acts don’t use flashboards to trigger backing tracks.

Not saying you can’t play back long .wav files from the flashboard, or that “no one” does that. I will say, being able to play back longer .wav files as backing tracks is a moot point
for me and for touring professionals. I don’t do it, they don’t do it.

So we’re left with whether there is any real advantage to installing the 2GB Mutec board.
I still say that, outside of price, no there isn’t.

DavePolich - 14 May 2014 02:44 PM

...It might sound mean or arrogant, but the fact is that no professional touring act uses
flashboards to play backing tracks. Seriously....

DavePolich, that does not sound mean or arrogant at all, and I certainly won’t argue this statement with you, because you know way more than I do on this topic for sure!

However, that doesn’t really address that many people use the XF as a MIDI SONG and PATTERN recording device...no Pro Tools, no Cubase, no computer.

External vocals and instruments...which can be a very big part of this process...need to be STORED and incorporated via the Flash memory (as you certainly know), and can begin to get very large in size compared to the 2GB total available now with the (2) 1GB Flash boards that the machine can install, and that both Yamaha and Mutec offer.

Now, it is certainly quick and simple to SAVE SONG and PATTERN data to USB thumb drives and reload easily as required to work on archived projects.  However, the synced audio tracks (as described above) that must live on the Flash board to be used by the sequencer are a different story...it is neither quick nor easy to add/subtract data to the Flash board.  So, to the extent that archived .WAV data can be STORED on the Flash board without the necessity of LOADING/UNLOADING...the ability to “permanently” maintain a much larger cache of data...that is a big deal to a lot of people who use the machine in this manner.

So, no...live stage backing tracks are not what I was referring to, rather using the XF to its full capacity as MIDI recording sequencer...before being ready to commit to full audio.

DavePolich - 14 May 2014 02:44 PM

5-pin Din said -

“Nobody besides yourself brought up the issue of loading time. The point that I made was that Chick’s Mark V is huge (400MB), but has few (five) WAVs. I had considered Chick’s Mark V not worth keeping installed because it hogged so much valuable space, but if larger flash memory is available then it’s less of a problem.

I respectfully suggest that you look at the evidence presented on the German site. Google Translate isn’t perfect, but it’s adequate. If nothing else, please look at the pictures that DschoKeys linked to.”


Yeah I looked at the pictures. DschoKeys’ FL1 picture shows some alias files, with remaining memory listed as “1 M”. The FL2 picture shows some actual .wav files, with remaining memory listed as “2M”. That tells me nothing.[...]

I recognize Waveforms 97 through 101 in the FL1 picture as those from Chick’s Mark V. I don’t know what the “Test alles zusamma” ones are - “alles zusamma” means “all together” in English, so this is likely filler to get near a 2GB total for the module.

The Toshiba RISC processor in the Motif XF can support up to 64GB of physical address space. That’s divided among internal registers, SDRAM, external ROM, I/O devices, etc. A 32-bit address space is limited to addressing 4GB - it takes 36 bits to address 64GB. The Toshiba is a 64-bit processor, and apparently has at least 36 bits made available for memory addressing.

There is a 2GB limit - on addressing SDRAM - the processor has two channels for that, each limited to 1GB.

MontaVista Linux is running things in the XF, and the OS might present more of a limitation than the processor.

Thank you 5pînDIN for this technical information, i didn’t know that the XF have a 64 bit processor.

Apart from the fact that Yamaha representatives in this forum are only speculating about the functionality of the Mutec 2GB Flash Board, and/or are negating it’s possible value for certain users (without having tested it...BTW: it is NOT up to them to decide if something is professional/useful or not!), the cited user tests have my full confidence!

For example, Hans Peter Henkel (hape13, who wrote the review for the 2GB Flash Board on his MOXF) is a longtime author for the official Yamaha Music Production Guide (search for his name in the PDF...), and to my knowledge, he is IN NO WAY connected to the company “Mutec”. Why on earth should he state that the Flash Board (even when totally filled up with 2GB of samples/waveforms) is completely working when it is not?

All the best, ;)

Jo

DschoKeys - 14 May 2014 07:48 PM

Apart from the fact that Yamaha representatives in this forum are only speculating about the functionality of the Mutec 2GB Flash Board, and/or are negating it’s possible value for certain users (without having tested it...BTW: it is NOT up to them to decide if something is professional/useful or not!), the cited user tests have my full confidence!

For example, Hans Peter Henkel (hape13, who wrote the review for the 2GB Flash Board on his MOXF) is a longtime author for the official Yamaha Music Production Guide (search for his name in the PDF...), and to my knowledge, he is IN NO WAY connected to the company “Mutec”. Why on earth should he state that the Flash Board (even when totally filled up with 2GB of samples/waveforms) is completely working when it is not?

All the best, ;)

Jo

Dear Jo, I know of no “Yamaha representatives in this forum” who have speculated on the viability of the Mutec Flash Board. Since that is mainly me, I have been silent on the subject because I’m waiting to hear from official Yamaha sources in Japan about the viability of using a 2GB board in a Motif XF/MOXF/Tyros products. We, of course, want customers to get the best and safest use out of the products involved - so they will test it when they get their hands on it. So when I get word, I will certainly pass it on - and not before. But there has been no official word yet, period. OK?

We cannot guarantee (without testing) any third party releases - when you have a product line as successful globally as these products have been, there are bound to be ancillary products to support it. Why would anyone representing Yamaha not be happy to report that they work, if it supports the product - that’s the only question you should be asking. No?

hi Bad_Mister, any chance you got some update on motifXS subforum? it had so much tips from users (and yourself) it pains me to see it missing

CrocAUS - 15 May 2014 10:12 AM

hi Bad_Mister, any chance you got some update on motifXS subforum? it had so much tips from users (and yourself) it pains me to see it missing

You will need to contact the folks at Keyfax NewMedia who’s site this is… I’m sure they are more stressed over it than you are.

DavePolich - 14 May 2014 11:26 AM

5pinDIN - 14 May 2014 07:04 AM

DschoKeys - 14 May 2014 05:32 AM

The user Musiker Lanze wrote a review about the new 2GB Mutec flash boards in the German Musiker-Board. The Test can be found here.

I tried to (Google-) translate it to english: [...]

Thanks for posting that. I still have a concern about usage of the full 2 GB per module, and I see that you raised the same issue with Musiker Lanze on the German board.

I had previously emailed MUTEC about this, and this morning they replied. I was told that “Yes, the FMC-07 works in the MOTIF XF, you can use up to 4GB of FlashROM now. But please note, that the number of useable samples/waveforms will be not increased”. I’ll wait for further confirmation (from Musiker Lanze and/or others) before being fully convinced.

Although I didn’t ask about the cost, MUTEC wrote “The FMC-07 is priced as lowest at EUR 379.00each.”

You know what - I just gotta say it - the amount of flash memory that can be addressed
is limited. So, as DschoKeys pointed out, with his OWN tests, having the extra gigabytes
is worthless. Yes, the Mutec board obviously works. No, it doesn’t allow you to store “more” waveforms than what the XF operating system can address.

To me, the people who throw their arms up with glee and say “hey, I can have more
stuff available now, c’mon Yamaha” are the same type of people who are always looking to get free software or somehow find a way to cheat the system. The same people who
use the “trial version” of Reaper forever without paying for it. The same people who
see nothing wrong with getting cracked copies of Cubase or posting third-party sound
libraries on mirror sites so everyone can have “the sounds they deserve”.

I’ve been pointing out all along that installing a 2GB Mutec flashboard isn’t really going
to give you any advantage. Case closed.

Sorry, Mr. Polich, what you say is infantile and completly incompetent!

I love it when one of my fans posts something.

Bad_Mister - 15 May 2014 09:59 AM

Dear Jo, I know of no “Yamaha representatives in this forum” who have speculated on the viability of the Mutec Flash Board. Since that is mainly me, I have been silent on the subject because I’m waiting to hear from official Yamaha sources in Japan about the viability of using a 2GB board in a Motif XF/MOXF/Tyros products. We, of course, want customers to get the best and safest use out of the products involved - so they will test it when they get their hands on it. So when I get word, I will certainly pass it on - and not before. But there has been no official word yet, period. OK?

We cannot guarantee (without testing) any third party releases - when you have a product line as successful globally as these products have been, there are bound to be ancillary products to support it. Why would anyone representing Yamaha not be happy to report that they work, if it supports the product - that’s the only question you should be asking. No?

Dear Phil,

sorry if I expressed myself incorrectly! My remarks should have been solely adressed to Daves statements regarding the functionality of the Mutec flash boards, his comparison to cheaters/other illegal stuff, and finally his hint being unprofessional when using audio files residing on the flash boards as backing tracks.

Besides appreciating all your valuable contributions in this forum, I also very much prefer how you handle this subject (i.e. not talking it down in general), waiting for official tests and not till then pass on it.

@Dave: actually, I also appreciate your useful contributions to this forum very much -except for your statements in this thread here...no harm meant!  ;)

All the best, :)

Jo

DavePolich - 14 May 2014 11:26 AM

To me, the people who throw their arms up with glee and say “hey, I can have more
stuff available now, c’mon Yamaha” are the same type of people who are always looking to get free software or somehow find a way to cheat the system. The same people who
use the “trial version” of Reaper forever without paying for it. The same people who
see nothing wrong with getting cracked copies of Cubase or posting third-party sound
libraries on mirror sites so everyone can have “the sounds they deserve”.

I’ve been pointing out all along that installing a 2GB Mutec flashboard isn’t really going
to give you any advantage. Case closed.

I for one will stick to the Yamaha boards but I do have a question, how is PAYING for a Mutec board the same as some idiot pirating software or cheating the system? If that’s the case, why would these guys bother with buying the Mutec or the MOTIF/MOXF they plan to put it in, when they could just rip-off Kontakt or Omnisphere? You are making an illogical comparison.
Now go for it, launch into one of your canned tirades about how I am a nobody and you are a pro, or how you get to be a cranky old man because you are sick of the same questions, or how I must be one of your “fans”. The fact is, I am not looking to troll, you come off like a condescending dick and that isn’t isolated to just this thread or just this forum. Stumbling upon your posts is usually more like stepping in crap than anything, which is sad given your experience and knowledge.

Wow. I certainly struck a nerve with some people, didn’t I. Did I directly insult you, personally? I have never directly insulted anyone in over ten years and thousands of posts.

By your own words, yes you have proven yourself to be unprofessional and rude. You can
easily ignore my posts but for some weird reason you feel obligated to insult someone you
don’t even know from behind your computer keyboard. That is really cowardly and lame.

Here’s the thing - obviously there must have been some truth in what I stated, otherwise, there wouldn’t be such vehement and insulting responses. And the truth is, yes, there are
people looking to get the cheapest price, and to somehow circumvent or game things. Or, put it this way, -"I cheated Yamaha’s own spec, I rock so hard”. Bad Mister, in another post,
summed it up well when he said that Yamaha is always interested in third-party product
support, and if the Mutec boards really can be verified to work, why wouldn’t Yamaha endorse them.

The real issue, however, is whether the Mutec boards offer any advantage. I still say,
and will always say, that all things being equal, there is no real advantage to having the
Mutec board installed because, by the company’s own admission, the Motif XF cannot address more than 2GB of flash memory. The only thing you might save is some
money.

Bottom line is, professional people don’t call someone a “dick” on an internet forum. If
you can find a post of mine where I did that, I’d love to see it.

DavePolich - 19 May 2014 11:48 AM

[...] I still say,
and will always say, that all things being equal, there is no real advantage to having the
Mutec board installed because, by the company’s own admission, the Motif XF cannot address more than 2GB of flash memory. [...]

Contrary to your assertion, Mutec has plainly stated otherwise.