I just noticed today that when I select a instrument voice from the Category Search while in the “Voice” mode and then go into the “Song” or “Pattern” mode, the sound of the voice is reduced in volume and even some quality.  Is that normal or is something not setup right on my MOXF8?  Thank you.

Look under Mixing-effect-ins sw. make sure the channel the voice in question lives on is set to on.

just noticed today that when I select a instrument voice from the Category Search while in the “Voice” mode and then go into the “Song” or “Pattern” mode, the sound of the voice is reduced in volume and even some quality.  Is that normal or is something not setup right on my MOXF8?

The change is normal and would also occur in the so called ‘real world’. There is definitely a change in volume, but that is not all. 

In VOICE mode the Voice is played alone - one at a time. In a PERFORMANCE or a SONG/PATTERN MIXING program the Voice is one among several (4 PARTS) in a PERFORMANCE, (16 PARTS) in a MIXING setup.

You are playing alone when in (Voice) mode, however, when you join an ensemble (PERFORMANCE) or go to the studio (MIXING), you plug into a MIXER (a device that allows you to control the relative balance between the different parts/channels). That mixer has another VOLUME setting - among its other settings.

If you are familiar with the term “zero out the mixer” - it means that the mixer has a default setup, or starting position, where all the functions revert to a nominal state.

Alone (playing a single Voice in Voice mode) you could play as loud as you want - and no one can tell you that you’re too loud for the other instruments (because there are none). But what many musicians ultimately learn (unless they are guitar players) is that you have to lower your volume in order to blend in with the rest of the members of the ensemble.

There is a maximum Volume level… in VOICE mode you can fill it with one instrument… In an ensemble the instruments must share the dynamic range.

So in VOICE mode, your Voice has full range to roam. When you plug into the mixer of the band, all volumes are set to 100, all pan settings are centered, all Reverb Sends are reduced to 12, all Chorus Sends are reduced to 0, all EQ is set to flat, etc., etc., etc. (I’m sure you’ve had an experience playing through a mixer in a band or in a studio. There are now a whole new set of parameters that influence your individual VOICE (Instrument) sound, as apart of an ensemble (Performance or Mixing modes).

The MOXF is just a microcosm of this whole situation. Of course, you sound different when you’re placed in with other instruments. The mixer settings (the parameters, that allow you to play or hear more than one instrument at a time), are now in affect.

Imagine if every VOICE was at maximum - like some bands (who mostly are just awful) every one is trying to play as LOUD as possible - it sounds like an argument rather than a blend of musical instruments.

Additionally, you need to understand the reallocation of the Effect processors. In VOICE mode you have access to the Voice’s Dual Insertion Effects, the MOXF’s System Effects (Reverb/Chorus), and the Master Effects. While the Dual Insertion Effects are apart of the Voice itself - they are part of the personality of the sound and are real time controllable via physical controllers, the System Effects and the Master Effect belong a class of effects that external to the instrument. They recreate the external environment: A Hall or a Room or Time Delay effects like echoes and multiple repeats.

An Insertion Effect as the name implies, is “inserted” inline with the signal of the instrument. The Amp Simulator Distortion and Wah-Wah on the Guitar belong to the guitar player. The Rotary Speaker and the Overdrive belong to the B3 player. The Damper Resonance and VCM EQ are apart of the Full Concert Grand piano’s sound. No other instrument uses the Guitar players stomp boxes, no other instrument uses the B3’s Rotary Speaker, etc. INSERTION EFFECTS are apart of the VOICE itself. They belong to that single MUSICIAN (Voice). The musician can control them in real time - via buttons, wheels, pedals, etc. They are an integral part of the VOICE itself, Make sense?

However, System Effects like the REVERB chamber - are not apart of the instrument - they are external. Think real world now: You cannot real time control the size of the room you are playing in. The only thing you can real time control about the Reverberation is the SEND amount. In the real world you can position yourself in the room by walking around or repositioning yourself within the room - this would be represented by a change in the Send amount. But you cannot reconstruct the room in real time (that’s silly).

Master Effects are placed OVERALL… like mastering or DJ effects - they are one of the last things before the output stage.

So when you take a Voice and put it in a PERFORMANCE or MIXING setup expect that you can activate the INSERTION EFFECT for 8 of your PARTS - but everyone shares the external effects, everyone shares the same ROOM acoustics… starting to make sense?

Make the VOICE sound good in its new surroundings!!! That is called MIXING!!!! Do you see why it is called MIXING?

If you think the MOXF becomes 16 times more powerful when you go from VOICE to MIXING - well, no. Wake up. When a band is on stage or at rehearsal they all share the Room acoustics, when a member of the band plugs into the mixer, there are now a new set of parameters that adjust where and how it will sound. Yes, actually having and setting up 16 MOXF’s each in VOICE mode - will sound different from one MOXF in MIXING mode - that is a given, no doubt about that.

But in what situation does every member of a real world band have their own ROOM to play in? One of the joys of playing in a band is that you share the same acoustics… and part of becoming a good band is learning to balance the output levels so that you make musical sound to the audience!!!

hope that helps.

Thank you Bad Mister, yes that all makes sense to me.  You specifically mentioned that this is noticeable in the “Performance” mode, so I assume it would also apply to the “Song” and “Pattern” modes since they too, are being routed through the mixer… is that correct?

I wish I could borrow your expertise for a day.  You don’t make house calls do you? LOL

BADMister is the “MahaGURU"....."the BESTEST !!”

Bad_Mister - 07 February 2014 08:15 AM

...you can activate the INSERTION EFFECT for 8 of your PARTS ...

Dear Bad_Mister. What does this mean? I can only use 8 Voice INSERTION EFFECT simultaneously, isn"t it? And what about the other 8 tracks & A/D input?

What do you mean, what about the other 8?!

There are sixteen Parts - this does not limit your project to a maximum of 16 Tracks. If you think so, you have not truly seen how the MOXF can work as a music production tool. If you’ve been making music with your MOXF, you need to ask yourself some questions. One question you need to ask is, which instruments require two insertion effects? And how am I going to go about building my project?

As a recording engineer and musician back in the day, I worked in some of the most legendary studios in the United States, seriously, recording with some of the biggest names in music. So take what I say with a bit of the knowledge that I wouldn’t just make things up. But not many of the studios I worked in could place the amount of processing on tracks as you have right here in front of you.

It means simply you can process eight of the PARTS in real time, simultaneously. I could have eight Parts with Teletronix LA2A’s, yikes. I cannot recall being at a session where that kind of muscle was just sitting in the rack ready for use. You know if you needed that, you had to pick up the phone and rent them.

“At the same time”, “simultaneously” - that is a key to understand. That’s what it means. Since you are sequencing (the word implies, one after the other, in sequence) since there is the possibility of Multi tracking to audio, you can process the first eight Parts render the results as audio tracks using all the Insertion Effects you require, then you can reallocate your effect processing resources. Apply the insert effects to the next eight Parts.

It’s like asking, “since the MOXF is only 16 Part multi-timbral, how can I record more tracks?”
If you cannot figure out your way around that, I guess its difficult to also see/understand how you can record an unlimited number of tracks. Since overdubbing is an integral part of recording. If you actually require more than 8 Parts with their dual Insertion Effects we invite you to ask the question after you finish your first project.

Music Production to a professional DAW is apart of the workflow of the MOXF. MIDI is not a finished product, audio is your finished product. Here’s a simple example of what I mean. And will be the subject of one of our User Group Tutorials coming up; an example of what the workflow of a project could be like

The original tracks are the rhythm section: Drums, bass, and keys.  At this point a vocal or lead might be recorded as a scratch reference outline for building the other tracks. I would record the vocals with a Compressor 376 VCM and the EQ 501 VCM Insertion Effects. Once the vocal is recorded, through the Compressor and EQ, I can reallocate the assignment of the Insert Effects. Effects once printed to AUDIO, no longer require the Insert effect assigned to that part (this is crucial to understand) once you apply the effect and document it as an audio track, you get to use those Insert Effect resources elsewhere!

If you assign your friends Electric Guitar plugged to the A/D Input through the new GTR Multi EFX and Amplifier Simulations, once you’ve recorded the track as audio, you are free to use the Insert Effect resources, on the next Part you overdub. See how that works?

Effects are applied as you render your tracks to audio. Remember, and your question shows lack of understanding this point: You don’t apply Insertion Effects to MIDI data, Effects are audio and therefore are applied to the audio.

In actual use you can print your tracks (as audio) sequentially, so even if you only had a single Part that could use the Insertion Effect, you still could render each Part, one by one, through the Insertion Effect. As you begin to do actual sessions you will find that not every Part requires its own 2 effects. It’s serious overkill.

In the real world use case, rarely do every instrument have Insert Effects. Think about any real band you played in. How many members of the band had two stomp boxes or the equivalent of two Insertion Effects?

From my perspective your question says, I’ve yet to really do a full project with my MOXF, and I don’t yet realize the necessary workflow to make the best use of the tools I have”. And that is okay.

Trust me, if this is a limitation, the workaround falls directly inline with how you will wind up rendering your tracks to audio. Audio is your finished product. We record initially as MIDI to get a good idea of what we want the FINAL RESULT to sound like. You can render your Parts as audio one by one, reusing your resources as you commit Parts to audio.

Notice how all internal synth Parts are routed initially to USB 3/4. When you are ready to render your bass track to an audio track, you can isolate it by assigning it OUT via USB 1/2, put two Insertion Effects on it as you render it as audio.

_ Mute the MIDI track, playback the song with all MIDI plus the bass now rendered as audio.
_ next! route the guitar isolated on USB 1/2, render it as audio to your DAW, using its dual Insertion Effects.
_ Mute the guitar MIDI track, playback the song with all MIDI plus the bass and guitar as audio
_ next route your keyboard part isolated on USB 1/2, render it as audio to your DAW, using its dual Insertion Effects.
_ Mute the keyboard MIDI track, playback the rest of the tracks as MIDI, plus the bass, guitar and keys as audio. Once you are satisfied with the audio you can delete the MIDI tracks or archive them as “back up data”

You know you will never run out of Insert Effects, nor will you ever run out of Tracks.

And so on until you completed all 54 tracks, 64 tracks, 124 tracks. Limits are in the mind of the artist only. Try it, you’ll see! And every one of those tracks can use dual Insert Effects if that is your requirement!

:-)

Thank you so much for such a detailed reply!
Today I tried to mix 1 song in MOXF. This is great! All instruments in the same environment sound wonderful! As far as I understand, chorus effect is using for widening of the stereo base of sounds? It’s a pity that I cannot play audio directly from MOXF USB stick.  I do not have the ability to set the computer on the stage close to the MOXF.
Waiting for your DVD about MOXF!!!

I wish final.mp3  (File Size: 7901KB - Downloads: 366)