Can someone confirm please that the guitar voice “Classical AF1&2;”, sounds on your MOXF like it does in the file attached. Is there any way to reduce/remove the thumping sound in the background. I understand how acoustical instruments work and sound but to me this is a bit over the top (sounds almost like drums). Perhaps this is a “feature” that I don’t know how to control. The MP3 file contains a direct recording from MOXF8 to DAW.

classical_af1&2.mp3  (File Size: 691KB - Downloads: 356)

cajo - 06 January 2014 08:32 PM

Can someone confirm please that the guitar voice “Classical AF1&2;”, sounds on your MOXF like it does in the file attached. Is there any way to reduce/remove the thumping sound in the background. I understand how acoustical instruments work and sound but to me this is a bit over the top (sounds almost like drums). Perhaps this is a “feature” that I don’t know how to control. The MP3 file contains a direct recording from MOXF8 to DAW.

Hi,
here it sounds similar if play such high notes.
Playing notes around C3 sounds natural to me.
There is a natural keyrange each instrument is able to play.
To be able to play notes outside this natural range is a way to
create new sounds. Yamaha could limit the playable note range to a real instruments range. But since you have a synthesizer you are abe to create not natural sounds.
Maybe Bad_Mister can tell you the natural keyrange of that particular guitar voice.

PS.
I found an information about acoustic guitars. They say the keyrange is 3.5 octaves.

I have just discovered this issue with other acoustic instrument voices. I higher octaves (still within the range of the instrument) I can hear the thumping noise when I hit a key. Interestingly the noise is deeper the higher is the note I play. There is something very wrong here. It is also heard on all recordings. The file attached demonstrates it well but you should play it on speakers other than laptop speakers in order to hear it.

popsel2 - 07 January 2014 01:06 AM

cajo - 06 January 2014 08:32 PM

Can someone confirm please that the guitar voice “Classical AF1&2;”, sounds on your MOXF like it does in the file attached. Is there any way to reduce/remove the thumping sound in the background. I understand how acoustical instruments work and sound but to me this is a bit over the top (sounds almost like drums). Perhaps this is a “feature” that I don’t know how to control. The MP3 file contains a direct recording from MOXF8 to DAW.

Hi,
here it sounds similar if play such high notes.
Playing notes around C3 sounds natural to me.
There is a natural keyrange each instrument is able to play.
To be able to play notes outside this natural range is a way to
create new sounds. Yamaha could limit the playable note range to a real instruments range. But since you have a synthesizer you are abe to create not natural sounds.
Maybe Bad_Mister can tell you the natural keyrange of that prticular guitar voice.

I thought the example I attached plays within the natural range of the guitar. I could be wrong here but it really sounds strange and ugly. I certainly do not hear that when I play my guitar. Perhaps the unit is already due for a fix under warranty or I need good lesson or two about something.....

I have an XF, but that Voice should be at PRE2:050(D02) on it and the MOXF. Is that what you’re playing, or is it a copy of it in a User Bank?

Was the recording made while just playing high notes, or were you also pressing [AF2]?

You could try turning down the Reverb Send. With the Preset Voice it’s set to 23 - a setting of about half of that, assuming I’m hearing what you are, might be more to your liking.

cajo - 07 January 2014 01:10 AM

I have just discovered this issue with other acoustic instrument voices. I higher octaves (still within the range of the instrument) I can hear the thumping noise when I hit a key. Interestingly the noise is deeper the higher is the note I play. There is something very wrong here. It is also heard on all recordings. The file attached demonstrates it well but you should play it on speakers other than laptop speakers in order to hear it.

Hi,

after isolating single elements of this guitar sound I see the noise is recorded with the sample itself.
I have a Yamaha Tyros4, too. There the synth sounds sound not very impressive but some super articulation2 voices do.
So I bought the MOXF and got the opposite. Power synth sounds but the reproduction of some acoustic instruments are not as good as on the Tyros4. With this I don’t say the MOXF guitars are bad. It might be unfair to compare a Tyros4 guitar with a MOXF guitar.

Even if Yamaha spend 741MB of sample memory for the MOXF they have to take care about ressources. So some sounds sound more realistic and have more pressure than others.
So it depends how much memory and how many samples Yamaha spent for this guitar sound. They will likely spend more memory for piano sounds. Most keyboarders judge the instrument because of the piano sound quality, isn’t it ?

Thanks to the FLASH expansion you are welcome to add your own sounds to the MOXF. I did it with vintage 80’s drum sounds I could not find in the MOXF. If you have some weeks to find out this is feasible.

5pinDIN - 07 January 2014 01:20 AM

You could try turning down the Reverb Send.

Hi,
I have had checked it with all effects bypass (off) and the noise
is still audible.
It is part of the recorded sample, I think.

popsel2 - 07 January 2014 01:53 AM

5pinDIN - 07 January 2014 01:20 AM

You could try turning down the Reverb Send.

Hi,
I have had checked it with all effects bypass (off) and the noise
is still audible.
It is part of the recorded sample, I think.

What I’m hearing that sounds unnatural in the MP3 that cajo posted occurs mostly in the reverb tail. If that’s not what you’re referring to in the recording, please explain what you hear a bit more.

Also, since you’ve isolated which Elements of the Voice cause what it is that you find objectionable, please post that information. It might be possible to edit certain parameters to minimize the issue, even if the characteristic is part of the sample.

It also would be helpful if cajo would tell us whether the recording was made with [AF2] pressed or not.

popsel2 - 07 January 2014 01:06 AM

cajo - 06 January 2014 08:32 PM

Can someone confirm please that the guitar voice “Classical AF1&2;”, sounds on your MOXF like it does in the file attached. Is there any way to reduce/remove the thumping sound in the background. I understand how acoustical instruments work and sound but to me this is a bit over the top (sounds almost like drums). Perhaps this is a “feature” that I don’t know how to control. The MP3 file contains a direct recording from MOXF8 to DAW.

Hi,
here it sounds similar if play such high notes.
Playing notes around C3 sounds natural to me.
There is a natural keyrange each instrument is able to play.
To be able to play notes outside this natural range is a way to
create new sounds. Yamaha could limit the playable note range to a real instruments range. But since you have a synthesizer you are abe to create not natural sounds.
Maybe Bad_Mister can tell you the natural keyrange of that prticular guitar voice.

PS.
I found an information about acoustic guitars. They say the keyrange is 3.5 octaves.

Thank you all.

So in summary:
1. The noise is a part of the sample and if the voice is played within the instrument specified range (in the case 3 and a half octaves) it should not be audible, meaning “working as designed”.
2. There are obviously better and not so good voices (samples)included with MOXF8.

I need to ask more questions. Why is this noise part of the guitar sample? I am under impression that it sounds like the natural thump of the piano key, that can be heard in piano voices. Why is it part of the recordings even when piano voices are played. To me, while the piano player is supposed to hear this, the listeners a few meters away do not hear it therefore it should not be recorded. Have I gone too far in the wrong direction here? Please let me know and correct me.

5pinDIN - 07 January 2014 02:23 AM

popsel2 - 07 January 2014 01:53 AM

5pinDIN - 07 January 2014 01:20 AM

You could try turning down the Reverb Send.

Hi,
I have had checked it with all effects bypass (off) and the noise
is still audible.
It is part of the recorded sample, I think.

What I’m hearing that sounds unnatural in the MP3 that cajo posted occurs mostly in the reverb tail. If that’s not what you’re referring to in the recording, please explain what you hear a bit more.

Also, since you’ve isolated which Elements of the Voice cause what it is that you find objectionable, please post that information. It might be possible to edit certain parameters to minimize the issue, even if the characteristic is part of the sample.

It also would be helpful if cajo would tell us whether the recording was made with [AF2] pressed or not.

AF2 is for harmonics (at list in my MOXF) and it was not pressed during the recording.

Can someone confirm please that the guitar voice “Classical AF1&2;”, sounds on your MOXF like it does in the file attached.

The natural range of any instrument is important information to know if you plan on playing a synthesizer well. Perhaps piano is your instrument:  the acoustic piano has a range from A-1 through C7, playing notes below G#-1 or note above C#7 would be the result of just sample transposition - a piano does not reproduce notes above or below its limits. Neither does a guitar. Anything that happens outside that range is really secondary…

Read up on Xpanded Articulations… On certain instruments including the guitars, basses and some others, you will find typical string instrument “sound effects” that is noises, non musical tones that the instrument makes during playing. These can be manually added or used by the arpeggios.

However, on instruments that have a range less than 61, 76 or 88 keys (which by the way is MOST of them) sample playback instruments have to fill in the empty keys with sound… Leaving them empty would cause those who don’t know to panic. A flutes lowest note is middle “c”

I can remember back in the early days of sample playback synthesizers, one manufacturer put out a Library that was, what they thought, a fine representation of musical instruments.... The phone would not stop ringing, keyboard players would call and announce they had purchased this (expensive) library of sounds but wanted to return it because:

“There are no notes below G on the violin...”

To which, as a sales person I would respond, that’s correct, there are no note below G on a violin. But keyboard players didn’t seem to understand, this. There are no notes below G on a violin, and if you are sampling a real acoustic instrument, indeed, there are no notes below G on a violin to record.

It was so bad, in terms of the target customers (keyboard players) not knowing the range of instruments… Manufacturers started handing out charts with musical instrument ranges on it. But “smart” never wins here… And it was decided that those smart enough to know the instrument ranges were not a big enough audience to support the industry, and educating keyboard players was like too slow a process.

Result: what you see most companies do now… They fill the rest of the range with whatever… Just don’t leave it blank. Violins have a composite single string that includes a viola, cello, and bass below the lowest G so that one can play violin on the keyboard without having to know the actual range.

Is there any way to reduce/remove the thumping sound in the background.

Yes, there is. Change the Element Level of the KEY OFF ELEMENT, (Element 5). You say you understand acoustic instruments - yet every note you played in your mp3 example is not one that is reproduced by a CLASSICAL GUITAR. the Key Off Noise and how it sounds or behaves on the notes you selected to play is silliness, don’t even waste time reprogramming that (IMHO) it is a waste of time. It is never going to played in earnest. Outside of usable range… Surely you can hear that?

You can not only control the Element Level as a fixed value, you can SCALE the level… This means you can change the output level of any Element across the keyboard - so if you want to have less “thump” as you go up the keyboard you “scale” the output so it contributes less as you go up the keys.

And because I know you are saying you know how “acoustical instruments work” you do know that guitars can be stroked and hit and sound like drums? http://youtu.be/dvk2e9F9-Qs

How much of this is extremely programmable. Use the SOLO function to isolate each Elements contribution.
Hint: there are 7 Elements
They all contribute sound, the thing to discover is when… Under what conditions.

Press [EDIT]
Buttons [1]-[8] represent Elements
The button [9]-[16] represent the mute/unmutes for the corresponding Element directly above.
Select an Element to view its parameters
Element 1-3 only play when “All AF Off” and are a 3-way velocity swap, covering the range up to B5
Element 4 plays always but only above C6 - sound FX
Element 5 plays only when you release a key up to B5 - this is the KEY OFF SOUND element.
Element 6 plays only when “AF1 On”
Element 7 plays a harmonic only when “AF2 On” in the actual range of the instrument

Select ELEMENT 5, press SOLO
PLAY across the keyboard. Here how it sounds when you release the key and as you go up the scale its contribution decrease.
You do not have to understand it, you don’t have to like it, it’s your synthesizer, it’s your music…
Press [F4] AMPLIFIER
Press [SF3] SCALE
Now again play up the keyboard see and hear the contribution of Element 5
Set it as you feel is proper, remove it whatever…

Then name and STORE you customized Classical guitar. That’s why you paid extra ... For programmability.

I thought the example I attached plays within the natural range of the guitar.

I hope at the end of this you post an mp3 of your final edit, with your knowledge of how acoustic instruments sound, please give an actual music performance - using the actual musical range of the instrument involved.

For thumping sounds on guitars please google: Rodrigo y Gabriela
Seriously… no, Seriously!

Bad_Mister - 07 January 2014 05:00 AM

.....
For thumping sounds on guitars please google: Rodrigo y Gabriela
Seriously… no, Seriously!

or listen to this...especially at min 1.42
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YT_B0zmpjAU

I thought the example I attached plays within the natural range of the guitar.

Bad Mister,
I am unable to get my acoustic guitar to sound like the voice in question. The deep “thump” that can be heard across the natural guitar range when played on MOXF, is just not there. Perhaps it is, as you said, related to the equipment used to record the sample and as popsel2 states above it is part of the sample itself. I was unable to improve the sound by editing the voice. The exercise was a good learning experience and I have figured out when particular elements are activated.
Thanks for the links provided, those guys play really good. If the reason for posting them was to prove the point that classical guitar can be used for drumming as part of percussive style of playing, I concede my defeat! Anything hollow can be used for “drumming”. So, the “noise” I described is there to allow me to “drum” on my MOXF by using the voice in question? How about playing something classical on the guitar in “normal” way.
I did make a mistake by playing a scale in the octave that is out of the natural instrument range, well not really because the first note I played is the highest note on my guitar. The noise is equally annoying in the lower octaves.
The reason I posted the original question was just to establish if my instrument is not corrupted in some way. I think that is clear from my post. I have not purchased MOXF to play the guitar on it, I have a guitar for that. So this is not an issue for me. MOXF is a fine instrument. Now I know it is not broken.

Thank you all for help.

cajo - 08 January 2014 02:50 AM

The reason I posted the original question was just to establish if my instrument is not corrupted in some way. I think that is clear from my post. I have not purchased MOXF to play the guitar on it, I have a guitar for that. So this is not an issue for me. MOXF is a fine instrument. Now I know it is not broken.

Thank you all for help.

Many years ago I purchased a Kurzweil PC88MX, primarily for its acoustic pianos. After having it home for a few weeks and playing individual notes, listening to them decay (essentially scrutinizing the sound) I thought there was something wrong with it due to what sounded like a noise gate cutting off the tail of the decayed note.

I took it back to the store where I purchased it, set it up and started trying to get the salesperson to hear what I was hearing. A customer walks in that the salesman knew and the salesman says “Play something on that keyboard.” The customer proceeds to play the keys off of it. When he finished, he said, “What’s the problem, it sounds like a piano to me.”

I learned that if you take most synths and start to scrutinize certain sounds in certain key ranges, you’ll often discover things that sound unnatural. But, when you just play it in a natural manner in the natural key range, it sounds wonderful.

Glad your board isn’t broke. Enjoy it!

Greg