I may have asked this question in the past, but not sure I ever got a good answer. Thought I would see if anyone new has suggestion.

I have MOXF 8 and am relatively new to synth’s/workstations. I usually play a Steinway Grand, and obviously it has a wonderful sound, so this is my reference. I use my MOXF for live performances, and I am disappointed with the speakers I play through for the piano sounds, mainly classic piano voices like grand. I have used QSC 10’s, and Electrovoice 12. The piano sounds, especially at louder volumes are very disappointing ( compared to my acoustic piano) . They are way too deep in the bass, and they resonate way too much. I have taken reverb out of MOXF, and adjusted the EQ, but still sounds bad.

It is not the MOXF, as when I play through a Bose headset, the piano sounds are really not too bad ( not quite like my Steinway, but pretty close). Has anyone found speakers you can use for MOXF for live performances ( need to be able to play loudly) that have a good piano sound.  Interestingly, most of the other voices sound great through my present speakers.

I think the most telling statement in your post is that the acoustic pianos sound good to you through headphones but not through loud live amplification.  This appears to be a classic live PA issue.

If you are experiencing booming piano sounds with QSC K10’s, then I would definitely suggest that your problem is going to be EQ related.

Granted that acoustic piano is one of the most difficult instruments to amplify pleasingly in a PA system, but speakers of that caliber do not on their own produce ugly piano sounds.

Personally...and I have an XF not a MOXF, but close enough...I find that the stock piano VOICES require pretty substantial parameter edits to suit me for live performance...which is what I do the majority of the time.  That’s no problem, because that is exactly what these machines excel at!

Many of the Motif acoustic piano VOICES are set up with heavy (IMO) reverb and rather boomy projected tones.  My theory on this is that most of the acoustic piano VOICES favor recording sensibilities as opposed to Live-play emphasis.  Fortunately I am able to zero-out the reverb (simple) and shape the EQ (a little more challenging) and end up with very nice acoustic pianos.

BTW, I am a (lifelong) piano player also, so am very sensitive to what you are saying when you compare your Steinway acoustic to your MOXF.

Let me ask:  Do you feel confident in your ability to adjust the EQ in a systematic way, or are you kind of hit-or-miss in your approach?

One of the very first things I do with stock-VOICE Motif acoustic pianos for live PA play is to slightly suppress the lower-mid-range frequencies (in the 500 to 1000hz range) and slightly increase the frequencies below and above this range.  This really helps to mitigate the live-play boominess.  Oh, and did I mention the first thing I do is kill the insert reverb?…

Most spaces you play in live have a natural reverb response.  You usually do not need to add reverb (to an acoustic piano VOICE) in a live-sound application unless you are going for an exaggerated effect.  Reverb from the machine is much more useful in recording, to compensate for the live-room reverb you would have in a real physical performance (just my opinion all of you producers out there!).

Tell us a little bit more specifically about your approach to live-performance PA reinforcement of your acoustic piano sounds, because there is no reason that QSC K10s...coupled with proper VOICE EQ...cannot produce an excellent live acoustic piano sound...especially if your major complaint is a “too-deep bass” with a 10” woofer!

davidtre - 03 January 2014 08:28 PM

[...] It is not the MOXF, as when I play through a Bose headset, the piano sounds are really not too bad ( not quite like my Steinway, but pretty close). Has anyone found speakers you can use for MOXF for live performances ( need to be able to play loudly) that have a good piano sound.  Interestingly, most of the other voices sound great through my present speakers.

Obtaining accurate reproduction of a piano is challenging because of its wide frequency range and dynamics, in comparison to other instruments.

Exaggerated or peaky bass response sometimes is related to characteristics of the speakers, but frequently it has to do with room acoustics and speaker placement. Certain room dimensions/ratios can emphasize some frequencies, as can speakers placed near floor and/or wall surfaces.

You haven’t described the room/venue you’re playing in, but if it’s closer to being a room in a house than a theater, I have a suggestion. Try moving the speakers away from walls (especially corners), and off the floor. Also, don’t position yourself in such locations while judging what the sound is like, because it won’t be representative of the rest of the room.

I also use the MOX8 (and now the MOXF6) in live performance with the QSC K10s and have experienced the same problem.  My setup is simple; I ran the outputs into a pair of balanced inputs on a Bose ToneMatch.  That mixer includes a basic “Keyboard” input but lots of EQ possibilities.  (I use it for its portability since I’m a one-person band). 

I’d love to get some advice on the EQ settings you are using since I’m using the exact speakers identified in the thread.

Addendum - one other variable is that in the QSC K-10 the HF EQ (on the back) is set to Vocal Boost and the LF EQ button is set to Flat.  I also typically use the Rock Grand Piano setting but I’d like to use some of the others, like Concert Grand, etc. if only I could get them to sound better.  Thanks for any thoughts.

Vocal boost is likely 2-4K area on an eq - that’s a good thing for piano to give clarity, provided that area of frequency isn’t boosted in the piano voice. I’ll address Flat below. The one other thing that can be causing you issue is if you’re playing in mono (using 1 speaker) and your piano voice is stereo. This is a very hard thing to overcome. The low end of the voice naturally comes out of the left/mono output because of being put in it’s normal place in the stereo field. The further away from center every note goes (right), the less it shows up in left/mono. And, the ambience from those notes is what you’re hearing more of in left/mono, as a rsult of stereo sampling.

Many here will tell you to run in stereo. Yeah, it sounds great (not here, though) where you are, but the mono PA still sucks. Mono compatabilty of stereo sounds is critical, and often enough not considered in the creative process of piano sample libraries. Running mono samples for this is not the answer, either. Piano sounds as it does because it’s in stereo when we sit in front of a Steinway.

The last thing to consider is to never put your cabinet along a wall or in a corner. Bass frequencies live there that will eat your tone ALIVE!! 2-3 feet off the wall will give you a much better sense of what’s really coming out of the speaker - what FLAT should be!  HTH, Shep

Try the new EV zlx 12 powered speakers in stereo. It has DSP controls that help to shape the sound including a monitor setting that rolls back the bass frequency due to coupling. I used the Jackie thumps before and these are better because of the DSP.

davidtre - 03 January 2014 08:28 PM

I have used QSC 10’s, and Electrovoice 12. The piano sounds, especially at louder volumes are very disappointing

My experience with the QSC K8 was that it does not sound great for piano. The EV Zxa1 was much better, more neutral, closer (though still not identical) to what you get through good headphones. Of the speakers I’ve played through, my favorite is the JBL PRX625 (I never tried the PRX635, which would be an interesting comparison, though I was not so impressed with the PRX612M). I thought that PRX625 sounded great, and it can handle high volumes easily. The downside is that it’s 60 lbs, and physically large. One thing I like about its size, though, is that you just stand it on the floor, you don’t have to bother with stands.

davidtre - 03 January 2014 08:28 PM

Interestingly, most of the other voices sound great through my present speakers.

Acoustic piano does seem to be the toughest sound to get right. I am generally content with all my other sounds through just about anything of reasonable quality… piano is the only thing that seems to demand something better, perhaps because of the large frequency and dynamic range of the instrument.

davidtre, perhaps This Article would be helpful in shaping your piano sounds in the machine before it ever hits your amp and speakers.  It might not really be the answer, as I know you stated you are happy with the sounds you hear through your headphones, but perhaps there are adjustments that would make the live sounds better.

In any event, if you want a piano VOICE to sound it’s best live, always make sure you are setting up or programming the sound while actually listening live and not through headphones.