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Viewing topic "How to create a drum kit containing all samples in one waveform ?"

     
Posted on: December 15, 2013 @ 09:44 PM
popsel2
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Total Posts:  76
Joined  11-22-2013
status: Experienced

Used Equipment:
MOXF6 (V1.03) 1GB Flash
Melas Wave Form Editor (V1.61)

Hello again!

While exploring the scope creating own drumsets I would need some help again.
From a Yamaha X3A file I extracted a drum kit as a X3V file.
Importing and playing this file as a UDR (User Drum Set) voice into my MOXF is working fine. I took this voice as a reference for rebuilding own UDR drum set voices. Analyzing using Mela’s Wave Editor shows Yamaha used a single waveform, containing 50 samples (Mela call it keybanks), and assinged it to one UDR voice.
So there is no need to spend one waveform for each sample (unsing only one waveform instead of 50). 

When I create my own UDR Drumset, like Yamaha did, I get not sound on the keys assinged to the waveform containing my samples.
Importing my own UDR Voice is looking like importing the Yamaha UDR voice. The used samples get installed, the UDR voice data is loaded and stored. John Melas said this is “normal” even on the MOTIF XF and Motif XS.
How to (re)build such a UDR drum voice or is it a Yamaha secret?

This is my single waveform, containing all samples:
16765516dx.jpg

Here the UDR voice is assigned to this waveform.
None of the new 18 samples in range from E3 to A4 produce a sound (strange). Other keys below or above this range produce sound from the preset memory:
16765517af.jpg

In the attachment is my UDR voice without sound if somebody wants to try it or needs it for investigation.

Regards

Andreas

File Attachments
LM23.zip  (File Size: 764KB - Downloads: 118)
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Posted on: December 16, 2013 @ 12:00 AM
Bad_Mister
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Total Posts:  36648
Joined  07-30-2002
status: Moderator

How to (re)build such a UDR drum voice or is it a Yamaha secret?

No it is not a “Yamaha secret” - why would you think that? (Strange)?

Here is what you missed:

There are two basic type of VOICES: NORMAL VOICES and DRUM VOICES;
We always tell the joke, there are two types of musicians, normal musicians and drummers! ;-)
So people remember…

Normal Voices can access 8 Waveforms.
Drum Voices can access 73 Waveforms.

A Waveform is a collection of audio samples that make up a Voice or a component of a Voice.
A Waveform can represent a complete multi-sampled instrument (a complete set of orchestral strings)
Or it can be a complete layer of an instrument (a complete set of soft strike samples across an acoustic piano or a set that is just the orchestral violins)

Mostly a Normal Voice has all 8 Waveforms used to create a single instrument sound - like the 8 Waveforms that make up the “Full Concert Grand” piano Voice.
A Drum Kit Voice has 73 separate Waveforms, most of the 73 slots recreate one drum instrument each (although there are exceptions where several keys are used in combination to create different gestures of playing a single drum/perc instrument; like the hihat (closed/pedal/open), or the triangle (open/mute) or Guiro (long/short)… etc. However, mostly a drum instrument sound uses only a single key.

Of course, the behavior of Drum Key envelopes are different from Normal instrument envelopes. Typically, you have to hold a key to make is play its entire amplitude envelope. Drum Keys are set so duration of key held is ignored.

You must appreciate the difference here for this “Yamaha secret” to make sense:

In order to create a DRUM KIT VOICE with the most flexibility, the things you want to know are the following:

Each Drum or Percussion hit in a Drum Kit Voice is served best if you place it in memory as a ‘one’ KEYBANK WAVEFORM. Each Drum should be treated as a separate instrument - because in reality, it is!

In other words, that first screen shot shows samples laid out as if they were assigned to a “NORMAL” VOICE, not a “DRUM” KIT VOICE. In a Normal VOICE you could use the data as you have so meticulously (and unnecessarily, by the way) laid it out. A Drum Kit would have a single sample per Waveform… And you would have 18 WAVEFORMS each with a single Sample in it!!!

A WAVEFORM can be thought of as a complete set of samples that make up an instrument or some component of that instrument.
Drum instruments typically require one sample. So create a WAVEFORM for each Drum or percussion sound.

Lets use the SNARE DRUM as an example:
The Snare Drum sample should occupy its own WAVEFORM number.
Sample of a Snare assigned to original ROOT KEY = C3
The KEYBANK (which is the KEY RANGE and VELOCITY RANGE) should be set to full C-2 through G8 and 1 through 127. This gives the Snare the most possibilities when used in a DRUM KIT VOICE where the “window” to access a Waveform is just one KEY.

With your method above, you’d have to use COARSE TUNING even to make the Drum sound normal - Also your method would be far less flexible if I only want to use one of your samples in a different DRUM KIT… I’d have to use all 18 of your drums together. Yikes! there is a better way…

...respect each Drum and Percussion sound as a separate instrument. A Bass Drum is a separate instrument (in a Marching Band you can get a job playing just Bass Drum). A Snare Drum is a separate instrument (in a Marching Band you can get a job playing just the Snare Drum). A Cymbal is a separate instrument (in a Marching Band you can get a job playing just the cymbals, and so on… A Drum kit is often called a “Trap Kit”, short for “Contraption” which is what early Twentieth Century jazz drummers used to call it - because it was an amalgam of things welded together and looked quite a site.

By treating each Drum as a separate instrument (with its own separate WAVEFORM) with a Range of C-2 through G8… even when assigned to a single KEY as in a Drum Kit Voice, you can use the Coarse Tune parameter to tighten or loosen (tune up or down) that sample. If you leave it your way, when you attempt to COARSE TUNE the Drum it disappears because there is no documentation in memory of that sample at any other pitch than the one KEY you assigned it in your KEY RANGE. So Coarse Tuning it a half step in either direction causes the sample not to sound at all.

By placing all your drum samples in the same WAVEFORM as you have, when you place your one WAVEFORM in a Drum Kit Voice you can only play one note from the one KEY you assign it to… this is a tremendous waste of memory. You also cannot COARSE TUNE your Drum sample because they only have a NOTE RANGE of one Note.

Again this is why you want to make each DRUM sample a separate WAVEFORM, and you want to set the original ROOT KEY for each Drum to C3 (it’s in the middle and will allow tuning UP and/or DOWN).
Set the NOTE RANGE = C-2 Through G8 (this allows you to access the snare at all coarse tunings).
Set the VELOCITY RANGE = 1-127

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Posted on: December 16, 2013 @ 05:43 AM
popsel2
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Total Posts:  76
Joined  11-22-2013
status: Experienced

Hi Bad_Mister,

thank you for your help and telling your point of view.

Yes, if I want the most flexibilty for a drum kit voice it is the best to assign each drum sound to a separate waveform.

I was already explaining my way of doing this a few days ago.
You might want to take a look at my tutorial:

Link: Drumset Editing Tutorial

But this time I took a Yamaha programmed drum voice as reference.
So this construction is not my idea. I was only taking it as an example how to build a drum voice which uses only one waveform.

My question was:
Why I get no sound for the new assinged waveform-keys, while the Yamaha version work on my MOXF.

In the meantime John Melas found the reason after I asked him for help:
He wrote:

Waveforms with many keybanks can be used in Drum Kit mode.
All you have to do is experiment with the “Coarse” Parameter of each drum kit to make it select a specific keybank from the waveform!

In other words:
After importing / installing the drum kit voice the COARSE TUNE parameter(s) are used to choose a drum sound from the waveform.
Each drum key has it’s own COARSE TUNE parameter.

I found out there is a problem with importing of coarse tune parameters from *.X3V-voicefiles in the MOXF. John Melas got a notice from me about it.

So, finally I know “Yamaha’s secret” ;-)

Regards
popsel2

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Posted on: December 16, 2013 @ 07:00 AM
Bad_Mister
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Total Posts:  36648
Joined  07-30-2002
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There is no problem with Coarse Tuning.

But this time I took a Yamaha programmed drum voice as reference.
So this construction is not my idea. I was only taking it as an example how to build a drum voice which uses only one waveform.

it is your idea because you have combined several methods of working into one program. And that is quite okay… The MOXF is very programmable and invites creativity. There is no one way to work. Many of the Preset Drum Kit Voices are created as I’ve been explaining to you - where each Key contains a single instrument Waveform. Some are purposefully “stretching” a sample across a key region using a programming “trick” - using the same waveform assigned to several adjacent keys and then Coarse tuning it across the Kit. But even they are composed of single instrument Waveform

You cannot tune your individual “drum instruments” is all I’m saying ... When you assign you waveform to a key of an existing Kit (try it) you will see what I’m talking about.

There are also normal Voice “drum kits” where a programmer uses the 8 Element architecture of a Normal Voice to create what are referred to as “8 ZONE” voices… You will see these all have “8Z” as a prefix to their name. But even here each drum instrument sound is stored in its own Waveform.

This simply allows you greater flexibility and access to more pitches when using the waveform in a Voice.

In other words there are no drum kits in the MOXF that have multiple samples the way you have mapped them… I’m not saying you can’t do it that way… Just questioning why?  And to say you got the idea from Yamaha data would be incorrect.

All other preset and user Drum Voices are of the 73 Element, one instrument per Waveform variety. We are not sure what Yamaha programmed drum voice you used as a reference but it is not one from the 72 Preset Drum or 32 User Drum Banks, that’s for sure. If it is, then you have misinterpreted how the Waveforms in that kit are configured…

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Posted on: December 16, 2013 @ 07:46 PM
popsel2
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Total Posts:  76
Joined  11-22-2013
status: Experienced

Hi Bad_Mister!

There is no problem with Coarse Tuning.

How can you claim that if you don’t know which problem I mean ?
If you are interested in what I found out why you don’t ask ?

Ok, here is a copy of what I wrote to John Melas for your information:

Hello John!

Thank you for your help. After tweaking the “corse tune” parameter at my MOXF I can hear and select my new drum sounds.
I found out that in my case a starting value of +4 and from there incrementing each key by 1 gives the desired result.
Then I modified my Lm22 example in the Wave Editor by entering a course tune starting value of
+4 at E3 Key
+5 at F3 Key
+6 at f#3 Key
and so on.
After renaming to “LM24” and saving the drumvoice, loading it back (with samples) into the MOXF there was a strange result.
The course tune parameter values I had entered do not appear!
Instead I get these values (read out at the MOXF6 display):
E3 Key: -1
F3 Key: +0
F#3 Key: -5
G3 Key: -8
G#3 Key: -8
A3 Key: +0
A#3 Key: -2
B3 Key: -1
C4 Key: +0

Even if the MOXF translates the values to new wave locations in the flash memory there should be kept an incremental value for the
course tune parameter.
When I reload the voice in the voice editor all course tune values are stored as I entered it.
I think you shold know about it.
If you want to test it yourself you may use the attached new version, called “LM24” and some screenshots of my entered
course tune values.
...

16773355qu.jpg
Actually I can not say what is the reason for the problem.
But there is something wrong.
I made this experince because of the tests I did.
Everyone is invited to verify my result using the same equipment.

it is your idea because you have combined several methods of working into one program.

How can you claim that if you don’t know which voice I used as reference ?
I did not expect this is relevant but again I want to give you this information:

At the German official Yamaha site you can download this soundset:

Twisted Tools Selection

Because of that I say this is a Yahama sound.
In this sound set you can find a drumset called “Micro Kit”.
This is the sound I took for reference.
You may want to analyze it with the Wave Editor to see it uses only one
waveform for the added drum samples.

In other words there are no drum kits in the MOXF that have multiple samples the way you have mapped them… I’m not saying you can’t do it that way… Just questioning why?  And to say you got the idea from Yamaha data would be incorrect.


I never claimed my refererence is from MOXF. But I wrote some days ago I am working with the Wave Editor and actually there is no function for opening MOXF files (X6A or X6V). So I have to use files the Wave Editor is able to open to find out how voices were build.

You asked why I am doing this.
First I wan’t to learn how I can build my own drum sets.
While testing and learning I found each method has it’s advantages and disadvantages.

Here’s my summary what I learned about it so far:

Assingning each drum sample to a separate waveform:
+ most flexible (coarse tunable drum sounds)
+ each sound can be tuned
+ combination with other drumsets

- 100 drum samples require 100 waveforms
- there is a limit of 2048 waveforms in the flash
- less avaliable waveforms

Combining all drum samples in ONE waveform:
+ more avaliable waveforms for other sounds (multi layer sounds)
+ 100 drum samples require only 1 Waveform (99 are free for other sounds)
+ samples can be tuned in a sample editor prior imort into MOXF
+ it is possible to use >1 drumsets on separate midi channels.

- less flexible (only fine tunable drum sounds)
- not each sound can be coarse-tuned
- no combination of single drumsounds with other drumsets in a single Midi channel

OK, you may find some other differences but this should be enough to figure out what I mean.

Now I can choose which method is the best for my project.
For simple vintage drum machines I will use the “One Waveform” method to save precoius waveform memory for other multisampled sounds.
If my aim is to build a most flexible drumset and want to be able to coarse tune every simple drum sound then the first mentioned method is the best.

Regards
popsel2

File Attachments
LM23.zip  (File Size: 764KB - Downloads: 132)
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