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Viewing topic "Motif XF sound engine question"

   
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Posted on: November 15, 2013 @ 02:55 AM
DavePolich
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Joined  07-27-2002
status: Guru
sarmad_dehnadi - 14 November 2013 09:54 PM

Sending me to software samplers is not the best policy in MOTIF support site !! especially by Dave Polich

I know that some VSTs can do this for me but what I say is that this feature will dramatically improve the XF sound engine and I believe it is not a hardware limitation and can be implemented to firmware in the next updates. Just adding sustain pedal to XA control list should not be that hard. Is it?

Well, in my opinion, I don’t think this “feature” is ever going to be added to the XF. So I’d cross that off your list if I were you.

I suggested using a software piano VI because that is a solution that is
available to you now. It has nothing to do with being a “correct” or “proper” response. If you need this feature, it is already there in various currently available products.

That said, I agree with Bad Mister that in a live situation, subtleties
such as pedal-down samples being triggered are lost...the audience will
never hear that. Besides, as I pointed out, the damper resonance effect
on the XF is designed to mimic what happens when you press the sustain pedal. Did you notice that the damper resonance effect occurs ONLY when
you depress the sustain pedal? So technically, you already have the
sound of sympathetically ringing strings occurring when you press the sustain pedal...about the same thing as triggering a different set of
samples.

Anyway, as I said, don’t hold your breath waiting for sustain pedal
triggering of different elements to appear in the next firmware update.

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Posted on: November 15, 2013 @ 03:01 AM
anotherscott
Total Posts:  640
Joined  06-30-2010
status: Guru

I agree with you completely, B_M. About lid, pedal noises, vibrations, the whole thing.

And I really do miss having speakers in my gigging 88 when I don’t have them (which, unfortunately, is most of the time these days)… that vibration you feel back through the keys makes a non-speakered 88 feel “dead” by comparison. Alas, there’s always a compromise in the rig somewhere!

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Posted on: November 15, 2013 @ 03:22 AM
anotherscott
Total Posts:  640
Joined  06-30-2010
status: Guru
DavePolich - 15 November 2013 02:55 AM

That said, I agree with Bad Mister that in a live situation, subtleties
such as pedal-down samples being triggered are lost...the audience will
never hear that.

Actually, Bad Mister didn’t say that… he talked about pedal noises, but not pedal-down note samples. But I kind of agree, I think those subtleties would tend to get lost in a lot of live situations, but not necessarily all. With a whole rock band playing, yeah, probably. But if there are times you’re playing completely solo or close to it, I could see it possibly making more of a difference.

Really, though, so many of these kinds of things, I think the audience would never know. But some of us spend more than we need to just because of how much better something feels/sounds to us to on stage through our monitors, even knowing that 99% of the audience will never know the difference.

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Posted on: November 15, 2013 @ 05:12 AM
cmayhle
Total Posts:  3057
Joined  10-05-2011
status: Guru
Bad_Mister - 14 November 2013 11:33 PM

I find some of the things that have been accomplished in acoustic piano emulation that are just too silly for school.....

...Again, just because it is there and you COULD sample it, does not, IMHO, mean you SHOULD.

End minor rant…

Bad_Mister, I could not agree more.

I went and played the new CP4 Stage Piano on several occasions for about 45 minutes each session.  I had every intention of purchasing one, and I really loved everything about the instrument except for one fatal flaw.

For some reason the sampling engineers decided to include strange buzzing overtones produced in the hard-strike samples on several notes a couple of octaves below middle C.

These are no doubt due to natural artifacts produced by the instrument used for the samples and picked up by the close-mic technique...most people probably wouldn’t even pick this up when in the hall where the piano is heard from 30 feet away or beyond...you would probably have to stick your head right into the piano along with the mic to hear them.  Why a decision was made not to correct these flawed samples before hard-installing them into the CP4 is a mystery to me.

When I find myself cringing every time I prepare to hard-strike one of these notes on the keyboard, I really have to ask is this an important part of the sampling of the original instrument just because it is there?

Because there is no way to tweak that particular hard-strike sample set in the CP4...like there is in the XF...it ruined the instrument for me.

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Posted on: November 15, 2013 @ 05:49 AM
anotherscott
Total Posts:  640
Joined  06-30-2010
status: Guru
cmayhle - 15 November 2013 05:12 AM

I went and played the new CP4 Stage Piano on several occasions for about 45 minutes each session.  I had every intention of purchasing one, and I really loved everything about the instrument except for one fatal flaw.

For some reason the sampling engineers decided to include strange buzzing overtones produced in the hard-strike samples on several notes a couple of octaves below middle C.

Which piano model(s) did you hear this on? i.e. CFIIIs, S6, or CFX?

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Posted on: November 15, 2013 @ 07:07 AM
cmayhle
Total Posts:  3057
Joined  10-05-2011
status: Guru
anotherscott - 15 November 2013 05:49 AM

Which piano model(s) did you hear this on? i.e. CFIIIs, S6, or CFX?

Piano 1 (CFX) was the worst offender, these hard-strike buzzing/ringing artifacts were found (2) C’s below middle C up to about the F# above...to a greater or lesser degree on the notes between individually

Unfortunately, the tone of this piano was also the best for my use...bright, crisp, and powerful.  It would be my “go-to” piano most of the time.

Piano 2 (CFIIIS) had some similar issues but on other notes in the same basic range.  However, not to the degree I found with Piano 1.  This piano would be a secondary choice most of the time for my use.

Piano 3 (S6) really did not have the issue, but unfortunately was the darkest of the three and not a piano I would have used that often.

By the way, the (5) band EQ on the face of the keyboard was excellent, and had the ability to shape the tones of all of the pianos quickly and powerfully.

Through a senior sales person at Sweetwater, who researched this issue for me with Yamaha, I was informed that these artifacts are in an area of the harp where string banks cross each other and create harmonic buzzing overtones in hard-strike situations...and are true close-mic representations of the specific instrument.

I have no reason to believe the samples are not in fact absolutely true to life...they just should have been ‘fixed’!

BTW, there are similar artifacts on some XF piano samples that I have identified, but the ability to make adjustments at the element level in a relatively precise way can help greatly in making corrections and adjustments, which I have done. 

Unfortunately, in the CP4 these adjustments are not available.

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Posted on: November 15, 2013 @ 08:21 AM
5pinDIN
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cmayhle - 15 November 2013 05:12 AM

[...]For some reason the sampling engineers decided to include strange buzzing overtones produced in the hard-strike samples on several notes a couple of octaves below middle C.

These are no doubt due to natural artifacts produced by the instrument used for the samples and picked up by the close-mic technique...most people probably wouldn’t even pick this up when in the hall where the piano is heard from 30 feet away or beyond...you would probably have to stick your head right into the piano along with the mic to hear them.

I thought I’d give a little perspective on why close miking is sometimes done…

Some people want a sampled instrument to sound as it does to an audience, but others want the sound to be from the perspective of the person playing the instrument.

Another factor is how good the room is where the sampling is done. Sometimes the acoustics aren’t the best (for example, room dimensions and types of surfaces play a roll in reverberation and emphasis of certain frequencies), or the noise floor is too high. Close miking can minimize those problems. (Of course, a better way to deal with such concerns is to find a more appropriate room. :-)  )
 

cmayhle -

Why a decision was made not to correct these flawed samples before hard-installing them into the CP4 is a mystery to me.

When I find myself cringing every time I prepare to hard-strike one of these notes on the keyboard, I really have to ask is this an important part of the sampling of the original instrument just because it is there?

Since I also don’t care for certain type of extraneous “character”, I empathize with you. It’s one of the reasons that I bought an XF - flash memory allows me to have samples that better suit my needs conveniently at hand.

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Posted on: November 15, 2013 @ 09:08 AM
anotherscott
Total Posts:  640
Joined  06-30-2010
status: Guru
5pinDIN - 15 November 2013 08:21 AM

I thought I’d give a little perspective on why close miking is sometimes done…

Some people want a sampled instrument to sound as it does to an audience, but others want the sound to be from the perspective of the person playing the instrument.

Neither the player nor the audience has their ears mere inches from the strings!

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Posted on: November 15, 2013 @ 09:26 AM
5pinDIN
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anotherscott - 15 November 2013 09:08 AM
5pinDIN - 15 November 2013 08:21 AM

I thought I’d give a little perspective on why close miking is sometimes done…

Some people want a sampled instrument to sound as it does to an audience, but others want the sound to be from the perspective of the person playing the instrument.

Neither the player nor the audience has their ears mere inches from the strings!

I’m not suggesting that by itself it’s a natural listening position - but that sound can be mixed (to whatever degree desirable) with that taken from a somewhat greater distance. I haven’t heard the CP4 samples myself, and I’m not denying that the technique can be overdone.

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Posted on: December 22, 2013 @ 02:57 PM
Digital Studio Designs
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Joined  12-13-2013
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Greetings,

Those who DO want the added realism of key-off, damper, hammer, pedal, and other mechanical/action sounds may be encouraged to know about the recently released “Piano Realism Pack™”, which adds all of those effects to MOTIF-based synthesizers with very high quality, multiple variations, and individualized control, using built-in and pre-existing waveforms! Versions of the Piano Realism Pack are currently available for S90 ES, S90 XS, MOTIF XS, MOTIF XF, and MOXF.

There’s a “Piano Realism Accessory Cable” hardware device for live performances and a “Piano Realism Virtual Pedal” software application for studio use, which both provide velocity-sensitive triggering of the pedal effects. These products include instructions for triggering your own samples. While you could use other products to trigger your own sounds (such as MIDI Solutions™ or MIDI-OX which can be programmed to translate sustain pedal events into note-on and note-off), achieving a velocity-sensitive pedal action (if desired) may be difficult if not impossible with some products. Another problem is that with simple MIDI translation, you may have to manually turn off the translation process when changing patches so that it doesn’t trigger unintended voices. These issues are solved with the “Piano Realism Accessory Cable” and the “Piano Realism Virtual Pedal”.

And since the subject of tuning has been discussed, it’s worth mentioning that the various Piano Realism Pack editions include some technical enhancements to popular pianos, such as stretch-tuning for the “S700 for XS” on the MOTIFs--Wonder why it sounds a little different? Yes, really, the S700 for XS sings more like the original when it’s stretch-tuned.

As a newcomer to this site, it’s nice to see this thread, if even a month after, and to know that others find value in subtle details. Even though piano action sounds may be subtle, people do notice the difference. They have said that the enhanced piano sounds better, more 3-dimensional, but they may not be able to articulate exactly why.

You can find out more at http://www.digitalstudiodesigns.com, where you can listen to some demos of a real piano alongside several different digital pianos, and with a piano enhanced with the Piano Realism Pack. Even though the Piano Realism Pack is a “voice library” (small distribution file without waveforms), the synthesis programming was nonetheless intense, carefully crafted, and highly polished over time.

Happy Holidays,

Digital Studio Designs

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