Hi all;

I have piano samples including these:

1-normal note
2-note with sustain pedal down
3-pedal noise down
4-pedal noise up

As you can see sustain pedal should be used to trigger samples number 2,3 and 4

Is it possible in motif sound engine to play different element when pedal is pressed?

sarmad_dehnadi - 13 November 2013 12:15 AM

Hi all;

I have piano samples including these:

1-normal note
2-note with sustain pedal down
3-pedal noise down
4-pedal noise up

As you can see sustain pedal should be used to trigger samples number 2,3 and 4

Is it possible in motif sound engine to play different element when pedal is pressed?

No. It is not possible.

Might there be a way to do this with a pedal plugged into the Assignable Footswitch jack?

anotherscott - 13 November 2013 01:06 PM

Might there be a way to do this with a pedal plugged into the Assignable Footswitch jack?

No. There is no way to set a pedal to send a “mute element” AND “activate
element” message.

This is a job for something called scripting. The Motif engine does not support complex scripting. A software sampler like Halion
or Kontakt does. Synthogy Ivory features complex scripting.

Scripting is essentially writing an instruction algorithm that says “if
“x”, “y” and “r” occur, then “z” happens.” Certain conditions have to be
met before a certain result.

Even if there was a way to assign a foot controller to trigger a different
set of elements, that isn’t what is asked here. The OP asked if he could
trigger different elements containing a different set of waveforms with
the sustain pedal.

DavePolich - 13 November 2013 01:14 PM

No. There is no way to set a pedal to send a “mute element” AND “activate
element” message.

Ah. I was thinking maybe the pedal could work the same way an AF button can… that when depressed, it activates an alternate element. (Well, at least I think you can do that with an AF button! I haven’t tried working with them myself, it just seems like they work that way on some preset sounds, but it might be that I just don’t understand exactly how they are accomplishing their tasks.)

DavePolich - 13 November 2013 01:14 PM

Even if there was a way to assign a foot controller to trigger a different
set of elements, that isn’t what is asked here. The OP asked if he could
trigger different elements containing a different set of waveforms with
the sustain pedal.

I understood that. I was just looking for a possible alternate way to solve his problem, since what he asked for wasn’t possible.

anotherscott - 13 November 2013 01:49 PM

Ah. I was thinking maybe the pedal could work the same way an AF button can… that when depressed, it activates an alternate element. (Well, at least I think you can do that with an AF button! I haven’t tried working with them myself, it just seems like they work that way on some preset sounds, but it might be that I just don’t understand exactly how they are accomplishing their tasks.)

Yes, the AF buttons can do what you described, with proper programming of Voice Elements. The XA (eXpanded Articulation) Control parameter has a few possible settings, among them (excerpted from the XF Reference Manual, page 70:
all AF off
When this is selected, the Element will sound when both of the ASSIGNABLE FUNCTION buttons are turned off.

AF 2 on
When this is selected, the Element will sound when the ASSIGNABLE FUNCTION [2] button is turned on.

Thanks 5pin. But is that function “AF 1 on” activating an *additional* element (i.e. all the other elements of the voice still play) or can it activate an *alternate* element (i.e. the activated element plays *instead* of some other element)? It seems to me like it can do the second, as sometimes it sounds like the AF1 articulation is played instead of (rather than in addition to) the articulation you would normally hear. But that gets back to, in a sense, what Dave said about being able to have a single function that not only activates an element, but also in effect mutes another element. If it can do this via AF, maybe the same effect could be triggered from a pedal? (As it happens, I haven’t used AF much, and not in a long time, and don’t remember for sure exactly what I did when I used it.)

anotherscott - 13 November 2013 02:21 PM

Thanks 5pin. But is that function “AF 1 on” activating an *additional* element (i.e. all the other elements of the voice still play) or can it activate an *alternate* element (i.e. the activated element plays *instead* of some other element)? It seems to me like it can do the second, as sometimes it sounds like the AF1 articulation is played instead of (rather than in addition to) the articulation you would normally hear.

Besides the XA Control settings I mentioned, one of the others is “normal”.

Some simple examples, using only two Elements:
1) Setting Element 1 to “normal”, Element 2 to “AF 1 on”, will result in only Element 1 playable when [AF1] is OFF, with Element 2 added to Element 1 when [AF1] is ON.

2) Setting Element 1 to “all AF off”, Element 2 to “AF 1 on”, will result in only Element 1 playable when [AF1] is OFF, with only Element 2 playable when the [AF1] is ON. Furthermore, since Element 1 is set to “all AF off”, if [AF2] is turned ON while [AF1] is OFF, neither Element will play.

I’m sure it’s obvious that with eight available Elements, XA Control settings allow for the AF buttons to accomplish some complex Element control.

anotherscott -

But that gets back to, in a sense, what Dave said about being able to have a single function that not only activates an element, but also in effect mutes another element. If it can do this via AF, maybe the same effect could be triggered from a pedal? (As it happens, I haven’t used AF much, and not in a long time, and don’t remember for sure exactly what I did when I used it.)

As far as I know, there is no way that a foot controller can mimic what the AF buttons do. I also checked the Data List, and it appears that while the functioning of the AF buttons can be changed via SysEx, they can’t be actuated that way.

5pinDIN - 13 November 2013 04:56 PM

2) Setting Element 1 to “all AF off”, Element 2 to “AF 1 on”, will result in only Element 1 playable when [AF1] is OFF, with only Element 2 playable when the [AF1] is ON. Furthermore, since Element 1 is set to “all AF off”, if [AF2] is turned ON while [AF1] is OFF, neither Element will play.

That’s exactly what I want to have on my XF but instead of AF button I need sustain pedal press/release option.
As far as I know AF button and sustain pedal are exactly the same. Both of them are simple on/off switches.

I think it is just XF OS issue and I believe YAMAHA can add this feature to XA control list in the future OS update.

This function can greatly improve the sound engine and enables sound programmer to get more realistic and/or complicated voice.

Just in my case which is piano sound imagine you have note samples when pedal is up and note samples when pedal is down(with sound board resonance) and also you have pedal noise up and down.

If this feature was available you could program a very realistic piano sounds with different notes and noise playing when you hold and release the pedal.

sarmad_dehnadi - 14 November 2013 02:22 PM

5pinDIN - 13 November 2013 04:56 PM

2) Setting Element 1 to “all AF off”, Element 2 to “AF 1 on”, will result in only Element 1 playable when [AF1] is OFF, with only Element 2 playable when the [AF1] is ON. Furthermore, since Element 1 is set to “all AF off”, if [AF2] is turned ON while [AF1] is OFF, neither Element will play.

That’s exactly what I want to have on my XF but instead of AF button I need sustain pedal press/release option.
As far as I know AF button and sustain pedal are exactly the same. Both of them are simple on/off switches.

I think it is just XF OS issue and I believe YAMAHA can add this feature to XA control list in the future OS update.

This function can greatly improve the sound engine and enables sound programmer to get more realistic and/or complicated voice.

Just in my case which is piano sound imagine you have note samples when pedal is up and note samples when pedal is down(with sound board resonance) and also you have pedal noise up and down.

If this feature was available you could program a very realistic piano sounds with different notes and noise playing when you hold and release the pedal.

You know, I really have to ask - this feature is already available in
Steinberg’s The Grand 3, Synthogy Ivory, Modarrt Pianoteq,Galaxy
Pianos, True Pianos, just about every software piano instrument, actually.

You can easily purchase any of them, run them on a laptop or desktop,
and trigger them from your Motif.

I know, you’d “like” this feature on the XF, but if you really need it,
is there a reason you can’t buy a piano VI that does it?

It would be nice for gigging, when you don’t want to take a computer with you.

And in a way, the argument “you can just get the sound from you computer” can apply to just about any sound that’s already in the Motif. Luckily for Yamaha, for whatever reason, a lot of people seem to prefer having their sounds in the box!

anotherscott - 14 November 2013 04:15 PM

[...] Luckily for Yamaha, for whatever reason, a lot of people seem to prefer having their sounds in the box!

Indeed…

...unless the next “Motif” is going to be a whole lot more Steinberg, and “Yamaha” in name only!

The damper resonance effect in the Motif XF goes a long way towards
simulating what happens when you press the sustain pedal. Especially for
live, it’s just fine.

We use Motif XF’s on the David Foster tours and the keyboardist in the Cure uses one. The pianos sound great through the big systems. Just sayin’.

getting back to your earlier post…

5pinDIN - 13 November 2013 04:56 PM

As far as I know, there is no way that a foot controller can mimic what the AF buttons do. I also checked the Data List, and it appears that while the functioning of the AF buttons can be changed via SysEx, they can’t be actuated that way.

Good info, thanks. Too bad there’s no way to assign a foot switch to perform an AF button function. There are times you just don’t have a hand free. I sometimes have set up foot pedals to do pitch bend for the same reason. That’s also why I really miss the prevalence of aftertouch. If I want to do pitch bend and vibrato on a lead, while my other hand is busy playing another part, it’s a two-foot operation!

Sending me to software samplers is not the best policy in MOTIF support site !! especially by Dave Polich

I know that some VSTs can do this for me but what I say is that this feature will dramatically improve the XF sound engine and I believe it is not a hardware limitation and can be implemented to firmware in the next updates. Just adding sustain pedal to XA control list should not be that hard. Is it?

As a musician, as a recording engineer, as a product specialist, there are many things about playing, recording and sampling/modeling an acoustic piano that are important. In my experience I’ve had to list these in level of importance… And have spend time discussing same in many meetings.

I find some of the things that have been accomplished in acoustic piano emulation that are just too silly for school. While I’ve dealt with the subtle sound of the felts falling back on the strings (this you do sense when you play and you do hear when you close mic), even the slight distortion that naturally occurs when the lid is open (and the sound folds back on itself), even the vibrations that come through the keys and through the pedal… these are a personal thing to the player and are not literally heard externally at all - amazingly these would be higher on my list than the pedal up/pedal down noise.  (By the way: If you haven’t played a Yamaha Avant Grand yet, as a student of the instrument, you should go play one. It is arguably the sharpest of the cutting edge in piano emulation… The experience is life changing when you realize it is electronic, nuf said. The fact the box is moving has to be pointed out to most people… They way they do the presentation is they let you sit and play and after a while they turn the “motors” off and all of a sudden you miss something, but are not quite sure what… That’s a subtlety that you might not consider as important but you can’t judge until you FEEL it. Bet it goes higher on your personal list that pedal noise!!!

In my opinion (please recognize I preface this with this statement) some of the things that have been modeled or reconstructed with great expense and lots of technology, are things that could really be left out, completely.

The old, “here’s the piano with the lid closed"… Why do so many models waste time, technology and effort to recreate a piano with the lid down? That to me, is silly. As a musician I would not play a piano that way (it’s the equivalent of being OFF), as a recording engineer I’d never record it that way! and as a product specialist I wonder, just because they can emulate that! WHY would you.

Same goes for, strange as it sounds, the ability to tune each note… When was the last time you wanted to actually tune the piano yourself? If you are like most piano players, you did it once and cured yourself of the desire permanently… Placed it under the column of I did it but from now on I’d pay some one else to do it. (sure there is the odd propeller head that wants to experiment with alternate turnings but, what an expense that never gets used! And to do it right there are more than 88 strings, please remember…

Same goes for the darned awful noise you get when the sustain pedal is engaged/released. I’ve played those computer based piano libraries with that, and couldn’t eliminate it fast enough. Just not musical in my humble opinion. As a musician I consider it bad technique if you can hear me work the pedal (yikes they squeak sometimes, would you sample that too?) As an engineer I never considered it a useful sound… I’ve miked the left hand of an acoustic guitar, but never the feet of the piano player… And I’ve worked on sessions with Earl Fatha Hines, Teddy Wilson, Eubie Blake, Hank Jones, Dave McKenna, and more…

Again, just because it is there and you COULD sample it, does not, IMHO, mean you SHOULD.

End minor rant…

;-)