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Viewing topic "My last MOXF Audio/MIDI Interface question"

   
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Posted on: November 09, 2013 @ 04:20 PM
jerrydpi
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Phil,

That’s not corny, it’s a perfect analogy.

So at this point all I have to find out is the answer to our syncing question.

Thanks again!

Jerry

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Posted on: November 09, 2013 @ 04:40 PM
philwoodmusic
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Yes, I think so,

You really need to tell the motif experts here what you are doing though, because nobody is sure how you are playing the music or why or if it is a sequence onboard your MOXF, or a pattern or live playing.

We’ve established that you would need to work in multiple recordings because you can only transfer 2 stereo sounds in one recording pass.

I’m pretty sure MIDI data is NOT already in your logic session which will make multiple recordings of individual voices that are designed to work musically together difficult to sync unless logic can tell the MOXF to play at the exact same moment it starts recording your audio.

If you are actually playing it live into logic from your MOXF, you have to worry about your own timing and the fact your arp by nature is perfectly regimented in terms of timing but may start fractionally out of time with your other sounds. (because you would be playing it live and not quantized)

your question should be:

“Because I want to record more channels of audio (to separate tracks) than my MOXF interface is capable of dealing with simultaneously, how do I sync tracks I’ve recorded at different times without using MIDI tracks to trigger my sounds back from the MOXF- in Logic Pro X (without audio editing to fix out of time parts)”

Or something along those lines.

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Posted on: November 09, 2013 @ 10:14 PM
Bad_Mister
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I had thought of that, but if I have a Performance that has a Drum ARP, a Bass ARP and a Guitar ARP, will all three ARPs line up correctly/in perfect time if I record one Part at a time?

Reading through your questions and trying to follow your mind set, this question sums up all of your fears. You have not mentally got your head around that you can synchronize everything because the clocks of your various device can be made to reference the same count. This is what allows you to Multi-track… Without this Multi-tracking would not be possible.

The thing about synchronization, it is one of those all or nothing things. You are or you are not, there is no ‘pretty good’. The clocks are either in sync or they are not, there is no pretty good sync.

Now the human factor is always in play. As a human you are more off time than on it. The more you work with recording MIDI data, and I mean “work” with it… The more you realize that as humans we really do want to play in time, on time, but we don’t really. A good performance does not come prerequisite with perfect clock timing. A good performance is actually able to occur without being “in perfect time”.

Perfect time does not prevent a good performance nor does it automatically make a good performance… You have to experience that for yourself. It comes with working with MIDI data, and listening with your ears, not your eyes. (Which is a problem for far too many “producers”, they have mixes that “look good"… Instead of paying attention to what actually works and sounds good.)

The whole “near the ceiling” approach in today’s home studio world is really annoying… Reaching maximum level output in measure 1, and having no dynamics is so today. I see lots of MIDI data… Piano tracks with note-on velocities of 124-127, really.

What is 127? The maximum HARD value for striking a note. Really, I think about the hardest I’ve struck a piano in earnest in a piece of music as 127. Not the standard hit. The thing about maximum volume and perfect timing is they are not realistic, all the time.

If you establish your standard hit as127, you have no way of creating a punched hit that gives the listener more. However, if I get you used to the standard backbeat at a velocity of 96, I’ve got headroom to hit you with a “punch”, dynamically speaking. If your loudest point is in the first measure you can’t impact the audience with a fundamental musical weapon dynamics (well, you still can, but you get my meaning)…

Learn about timing, shifting clock position of your data, but believe your ears, give them the VETO power over what information you read about your music with your eyes. Not trying to be profound here or anything, it’s just common sense.

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Posted on: November 10, 2013 @ 04:06 AM
jerrydpi
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Good morning Phil!

I knew you were monitoring my Topic and you were just waiting for the right time to jump in.

Here is my question/fear that I can’t seem to get away from (and/or obviously can’t grasp).

It’s a no brainer that the MOXF is aimed towards the growing market of keyboard players who are using DAW’s.

That market is growing everyday and it AIN’T gonna go away my friends!

We all also know that the MOTIF/MOXF Sequencer is as good as it gets for putting a Song together.

So here’s old Jerry who writes a Song on the MOXF Sequencer. It sounds like a professionally written, professionally played Song.

This Song has (16) Parts, all Sequenced/played beautifully together.

But no matter how good/bad a Song is, until it’s on Tape/Vinyl/CD/MP3/etc., it doesn’t mean Do-Do!

So I want/need to get that Song to my DAW (Logic Pro X) so the Song can be completed and sent to an Engineer who will do the final Mix.

So here’s the question:

Yamaha knows/hopes I’m going to use its fantastic Sequencer.

But how do they expect me to get all (16) Parts to my DAW if I can only send (4) Channels at a time?

Thanks!

PS

Are you going to tell me I can’t see the forest for the trees, and the answer is (4) Channels (or two Stereo Channels) at a time?  :-)

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Posted on: November 10, 2013 @ 08:02 AM
Bad_Mister
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First you have to know or recognize what you don’t know.

You do not have to take your project to some Engineer to mix it. That’s your fantasy, but this is not a necessary step in everyone’s reality. Please recognize that is what Jerry wants or envisions as a professional project. To accomplish this you can either do the transfer yourself (as you don’t trust yourself with the mix, I cannot find a good argument for why you would insist on doing the transfer to separate audio tracks, by yourself… I mean, after all, the tracking to audio is what takes more skills than the mixing down)

The record engineer is as critical as the mix engineer. Anyone can mix, truly, it is a subjective art. Some are much better at it than others, but its subjective. However, recording audio, the actual tracking to a DAW, is not so subjective, in fact, it is quite objective and scientific. You want some one with experience doing the tracking.

Second, you still do not understand the concept of an audio bus, a mono bus, a stereo bus, the concept of separate audio tracks, mixing, or how it relates, and I understand, it is all so confusing.

You don’t have to transfer everything at once to your DAW as audio, that is not necessary, you get no extra points or benefit from doing it all at once, other than it can save some time (not so much that its that very significant).

You can do the entire mix to a .wav and burn your CD without ever using a DAW.
You can transfer your tracks to your DAW yourself, or you can simply take your MIDI data to the studio and load it up into whatever DAW your hired engineer is familiar with, simply do the Tracking/Transfer right there at the studio. Get what you pay for… Trust me, after everything is tracked correctly, anyone can mix it… That’s the easy part.

If I were you I’d look to develop a workflow that does not overload your capabilities, particularly if you are seeking some else to mix your project ... You might want to record some basic tracks to the MOXF sequencer and before you go and complete everything, transfer just the drums, bass and comping keyboard parts over to the DAW as audio. Then you can mute the MIDI tracks, you can transfer each subsequent track immediately upon completing and editing it. So that it’s not a big confusing thing for you where you think it has to be done “all at the same time”, that, again is some thing that you have dreamed up in your fantasy about how to proceed… And you can transfer multiple parts or individual parts… You can have isolated tracks where each is a separate instrument and/or you can have group tracks, where things like strings and pads are combined together.

You do not have to record MIDI at all or you can simply take your MIDI recording as a SMF and have the studio transfer your individual tracks to audio… They will do that for you, if they are using Logic Pro or Pro Tools or whatever, you can have them do this even before you get there if you don’t want to listen while they setup and play through your song sixteen times or eight times or whatever it takes to separate it out as you want to mix it.

How many passes it takes is not important, in the scheme of things, what is important is that each part you route to a separate track is one that is placed there for a reason to make your Mix work.

You should try out some things yourself, before you decide to pay some one for anything… Trust me the rendering to audio takes the most “know how”. Hope that helps.

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Posted on: November 10, 2013 @ 08:37 AM
jerrydpi
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Bad_Mister - 10 November 2013 08:02 AM

First you have to know or recognize what you don’t know.

You do not have to take your project to some Engineer to mix it. That’s your fantasy, but this is not a necessary step in everyone’s reality. Please recognize that is what Jerry wants or envisions as a professional project. To accomplish this you can either do the transfer yourself (as you don’t trust yourself with the mix, I cannot find a good argument for why you would insist on doing the transfer to separate audio tracks, by yourself… I mean, after all, the tracking to audio is what takes more skills than the mixing down).

Phil,

You’re right when you say I first have to know what I don’t know.

I meant sending the finished Song to be Mastered (you’re right, I know how to MIx).

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Posted on: November 10, 2013 @ 08:44 AM
jerrydpi
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Bad_Mister - 10 November 2013 08:02 AM

If I were you I’d look to develop a workflow that does not overload your capabilities, particularly if you are seeking some else to mix your project ... You might want to record some basic tracks to the MOXF sequencer and before you go and complete everything, transfer just the drums, bass and comping keyboard parts over to the DAW as audio. Then you can mute the MIDI tracks, you can transfer each subsequent track immediately upon completing and editing it.

That’s the part that is still confusing.

How can I send the Stereo Drums (2 Channels), the Bass (1 Channel) and the comping Stereo Keyboard (2 Channels) from the built in (4) Channel USB Interface?

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Posted on: November 10, 2013 @ 09:20 AM
pax_eterna
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TBH, as all arp data can be sent over midi, I would send ALL parts (16 at once for midi) to the DAW via MIDI, then work on it using the MOXF as the sound engine again via midi and THEN in the DAW record all your audio at once - one pass, if you like.

Just assign each MIDI part to its own audio record track...pretty simple really...and because you recorded it all via midi using the one moxf clock it is ALL in perfect time :-)

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Posted on: November 10, 2013 @ 01:19 PM
philwoodmusic
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Jerry,

I feel a bit bad because I talked quite a bit thinking you were a bit more up on multi track recording than you are (now I’ve read BM’s replies) That’s my fault for for being rather new to this forum and not reading around your other posts, or not actually taking the time to ask you what level you’re at.

If I were you (and you sound pretty serious about learning this stuff) what I would do is pick myself up a 4 track recorder be it an old cassette based one off ebay or something or whatever today’s equivalent data disk version is and learn to use that first...before you attempt multi tracking with computers and DAWs.

Everything you learn whilst using it can be used and extrapolated in pretty much all other multi track recording systems and situations. You can still use your MOXF as the sound source.

It will give you a good basic understanding of how audio signals are routed to different tracks, a good basic understanding of signal flow (which is how the audio moves through the mixer itself) and what you can do with those signals once they have been recorded.

Plus, it is a LOT of fun.

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Posted on: November 10, 2013 @ 02:48 PM
jerrydpi
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Phil,

You have NOTHING to apologize to me for!

You (as well as all my beloved fellow Forum Members) are just trying to help me, and I TRULY appreciate that!

Contrary to what Bad_Mister has surmised, I am very familiar with the use of multi track recording on DAW’s (as well as on 24 Track Tape and ADAT).

I know how to record on Pro Tools and though I am new to Logic Pro X, it’s the same process.

Yesterday I finished two of my original songs, recording the Drums, Bass Guitar, EP, Horns and Strings from the XF and then recording my Guitar Player, as well as my Main and Background Vocals.

Here’s what I did:

1) I set up a Stereo Software Track on LPX using Addictive Drums. I custom made the Drum Kit within Addictive Drums, including custom tuning/panning/fx of each drum as well as mic placement within the Kit.

2) I then hooked up the XF to our MacBook Pro and set up the Remote Control of the XF to control the Transport Controls of LPX.

3) I then called up a Performance that had the Drum ARPs that I liked, set up the XF to transmit the Drum ARP correctly and then recorded the ARP, including fills, triggering AD.

4) I then made another Software Track that had Trilian Bass on it. I set up the key range, the MIDI Receive Channel (same as the MIDI Transmit Channel as the XF) as well as the tuning of an edited Slap Bass on the Channel Strip, hit the Record Button on the XF and played/recorded the entire Bass Track in one take.

5) Next, I created a Stereo Audio Track on LPX, hooked up the Analog Outs of the XF to the inputs of a Focusrite Saffire, called up an Electric Piano Voice on the XF, hit record on the XF and away I went.

6) I then created another Audio Track on LPX, set up a Guitar Amp AU on the Channel Strip and plugged his guitar into the Saffire. At this point I’m controlling the Transport Controls of LPX from my iPad Logic Remote app while my Guitarist plays his heart out over several takes.

I ended up liking the Intro of Take One, the Verse of Take Two, the Chorus of Take Six and the Solo of Take Fifteen.

I then seamlessly edited/Pasted all the Takes I liked and went on to record Vocals next.

The point of all the above is to show that while I’m no Bruce Swedien (nor Bad_Mister), I can manage to do what I want when it comes to recording my Songs.

All my confusion started when I decided wouldn’t it be great/fun/easier/cooler/opening my mind to all the possibilities/etc to sequence all my Drum, Bass, Keyboard, Horn and String Parts on a XF (or a MOXF), connect it to my MBP by Firewire (with the XF) or the USB Interface (of a MOXF if I decide to purchase one) and then record all the Parts in one pass to LPX.

Obviously I could do exactly what I want (record all Parts to LPX in one pass) with a XF and FW16E.

I was just trying to figure out (before buying one) how to do it with the (4) Channel USB Interface of the MOXF.

Thanks :-)

Jerry

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Posted on: November 10, 2013 @ 04:50 PM
philwoodmusic
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ok that’s cool, I feel better then lol

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Posted on: November 10, 2013 @ 09:56 PM
Bad_Mister
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1) I set up a Stereo Software Track on LPX using Addictive Drums. I custom made the Drum Kit within Addictive Drums, including custom tuning/panning/fx of each drum as well as mic placement within the Kit.

First, forgive me if it I’ve been under estimating your knowledge and experience recording. My bad. But another way to say what you you’ve done above is: I set a stereo track for Addictive Drums. I custom made the Drum Kit routing each drum in the stereo panorama by panning each more to the left bus or the right bus of my software’s stereo output. Instead of recording each drum on a separate track, I routed them all on a stereo bus to my DAW’s track. In order to record each drum to a separate track I would have had to assign (isolate) each drum to its own mono bus.

Okay so again, a “bus” is a vehicle for carrying one or more passengers from point A to point B along a specific route. In the case of audio, the passengers are the various audio signals. In the case of your Drum Kit, each Drum was routed on a dual bus (left/right pair) we commonly call a stereo bus. The sound can be located more left, center or right by how you pan the signal between these two (interactive) buses.

So when I asked you was your goal to create separate tracks, I could tell by your lack of a direct answer, that you did not understand my question, I was speaking a different language (with all this technical “bus” stuff). Because you don’t see what you are doing (and obviously, you have been doing this) in terms, of audio busing (signal routing)… The above quote is an example of you making busing decisions concerning your drums. If you had decided to separate the KICK because you want to give your Mix engineer control over mixing the drums, you would have had to figure out how to isolate just the Kick from the other drum instruments (snare, hihats, toms, cymbals, etc)… What if you wanted to have separate track’s for each?

The decision process will occur for your MOXF Parts, if you want to isolate your stereo keyboard on an audio track, you will need to make it the only passenger on the stereo bus going from the MOXF to your DAW. Say you assign it to output bus “USB 1/2”. That is: you route the Keyboard Part to bus 1/2.

This is exactly what you did with the Drum Kit of you Addictive Drums, you isolated it on a stereo bus and recorded it to a stereo track - the Kit was the only passenger on that bus.

You have several other examples of busing decisions in your post. But you never call them by these terms. Perhaps you just don’t, that’s okay, but when communicating with some one, its better to talk in the general. I don’t need to know how to work your chosen drum software, if I’m aware that you are using a software based drum source, that’s all I need know to route signal to/from it. You just have to recognize that the MOXF is multiple devices (you could be using the MOX Drum Kit, and you would need to make the same decision concerning just the DrumKit Part). When you listen to it, you are listening to the analog stereo bus… All parts are routed to the main stereo bus. That bus has a left and right and the ability to pan signal between the two.

When routing audio for recording you could combine all your Parts on a stereo bus. But if you want separate isolated tracks for each instrument, you will need to synchronize the two systems and transfer your data via multiple passes. Hiw many passes is determined by your production decisions. You have two stereo buses USB 1/2 and USB 3/4. Routing your parts on these buses is a decision affecting production.

The mono bass will use one side of a stereo bus… Say you send it on the LEFT bus… of USB 1/2. The left is always the ODD number, the EVEN is always the right channel, in a ODD/EVEN stereo pair. To isolate the signal, in general you would either not use the other channel, or you would keep things discreet, by hard panning… And muting effect returns from System or Master Effects.

You would create a mono input in your DAW, set to receive the LEFT input and route it to a mono track
Now what about this you don’t get with the MOXF, is anybody’s guess. I assume the light bulbs will start going on any time now.
:-)

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Posted on: November 11, 2013 @ 01:29 AM
jerrydpi
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Baby,

You’re the GREATEST!!

Ralph

:-)

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Posted on: November 11, 2013 @ 06:31 AM
meatballfulton
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jerrydpi - 09 November 2013 02:33 PM

I had thought of that, but if I have a Performance that has a Drum ARP, a Bass ARP and a Guitar ARP, will all three ARPs line up correctly/in perfect time if I record one Part at a time?

Record your playing into the MOXF sequencer, then play back that sequence one part at a time.

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Posted on: November 11, 2013 @ 06:36 AM
pax_eterna
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Wrong post

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