Hi Motifator! I’m the proud owner of a new XF8 after having been without a board for 6+ years. I had the original S90 before that.

So I’ve reviewed both the Fully Loaded video and the Motif XF Flash Memory Expansion Modules support article here on the site. I’m still a bit confused about the load options.

I know questions like these are asked frequently, so if my question has been answered somewhere else please let me know. I’m asking because I was not able to find the answer in the video or the article; I haven’t yet searched the (massive) forum.

I’ll try to be concise:

1. For an n2.X3A file, how does one determine whether sample/waveform data is stored in the FL1 versus the USR memory block? (Example: the Chick Corea Mark V instructions have load options set to USR>FL1. This tells me that sample/waveform data is likely stored in the USR block of the file, but couldn’t it also be stored in the FL1 block of the file?)

2. For an n3.X3A file, does it make any difference if I select FL1>FL1, FL2>FL2 versus FL1>None, FL2>None; since no data was stored in either FL memory block of the file (by the “n3” extension), no data would be transferred from those memory blocks regardless of where the data is being directed in load options, correct?

3. Would voice/performance param data ever be stored in either FL memory block of an n1.X3A or n2.X3A file?

4. If yes to question 3, and I set load options to FL*>FL*, would voice param data from FL* automatically redirect to USR?

Thanks in advance for your patience, and looking forward to many years of music!

Hi skidalgo,
Welcome to Motifator Forum and big congrats on the purchase of your new Motif XF8.
As I don’t yet have a Flash memory installed in my Motif XF8, I can’t give you much useful information.
I’m sure someone with that experience will be happy to assist you.
Enjoy your time well spent at Motifator Forum…

take care

Chas

Welcome to the forums

1. For an n2.X3A file, how does one determine whether sample/waveform data is stored in the FL1 versus the USR memory block? (Example: the Chick Corea Mark V instructions have load options set to USR>FL1. This tells me that sample/waveform data is likely stored in the USR block of the file, but couldn’t it also be stored in the FL1 block of the file?)

Sorry I don’t have the Chick Corea Mark V instructions to verify what you say - seems strange since the size of the Chick Corea Mark V Rhodes (400MB) is larger than would fit in the USR SDRAM of a Motif XF - so why would the instructions say that? Either you are taking them out of context or they simply do not say exactly that or there is a typo.

The maximum size of the sample data that can be in USR(SDRAM) is 128MB. So the Chick Corea electric piano would have to be loaded into at least a 512MB FLASH Board. The convention is to use Slot 1 first (FL1).

That said, a file with the extension n2.X3A will have NO SAMPLE data for FL2. That is what the “.n2” means. Don’t make it more complicated than that.

The load option should be set:
USR > USR
FL1 > FL1
FL2 > None

2. For an n3.X3A file, does it make any difference if I select FL1>FL1, FL2>FL2 versus FL1>None, FL2>None; since no data was stored in either FL memory block of the file (by the “n3” extension), no data would be transferred from those memory blocks regardless of where the data is being directed in load options, correct?

No, incorrect. It makes a difference. The extension .n3.X3A means NO SAMPLE data for either FL1 or FL2. It does not mean that “no data was stored in either FL memory blocks of the file)… it literally means NO SAMPLE data.

In fact, WAVEFORM data is stored in the file. So here, it become important to understand the difference between SAMPLES and WAVEFORMS in this whole scenario. If you have been using the words interchangeably or to mean the same thing, you can see now, it will be important to understand the difference. Because “Sample” data is treated differently from “Waveform” data. (And it is simply a matter of size… the amount of data each represents).

The dot “n” extension always refers to the “Sample” data and where it will or will not be found in the file.
All files that you save would include the Waveform information.

Here’s why that can happen:
Sample data is the audio. The audio is or can be large amounts of data - and is what takes so very long to load when dealing with files. Samples are measured in the Megabytes.
Waveform data is not the audio, it is the parameters that collect the samples and herd them into functional groupings. Waveform data is measured in Kilobytes.

So in terms of data size the Sample can be huge (the Chick Corea Rhodes sample data is over 400MB). I bet it is but a few thousand bytes of data that make up the Waveforms to collect the samples.

A Waveform is a multi-sample. It can be made from as few as 1 and as many as 128 samples. So it is the set of parameters that herd the samples into KEY BANKS (note ranges across the keyboard, and velocity ranges). A Waveform parameter includes playback direction, along with the key mapping parameters. But it is just parameters - not like the sample which is actual audio data.

Bottomline: Samples very slow to move around because of their size. Waveform data quick to manipulate because they are small.

If you are loading a file with the extension n3.X3A it could very well contain Waveform data (instructions that tell a Voice where to look to find its audio). If you do not set the Load Options properly (FL1 > NONE, FL2 > NONE) you could wind up having the XF load duplicate Waveforms. It depends on the file.

If you do not want to make any changes to either the Samples that are installed on your Flash boards, and you do not want to add any Waveforms to your Waveform List, then set the Load Options to
USR > USR
FL1 > None
FL2 > None

It does matter - or it could matter.

The “None” option should be used whenever you do not want to make changes to the Samples that are installed on your Flash Boards and you do not want to add any Waveforms to the Waveform List.

[quote3. Would voice/performance param data ever be stored in either FL memory block of an n1.X3A or n2.X3A file?

Never

Hope that helps

Sorry I don’t have the Chick Corea Mark V instructions to verify what you say - seems strange since the size of the Chick Corea Mark V Rhodes (400MB) is larger than would fit in the USR SDRAM of a Motif XF - so why would the instructions say that? Either you are taking them out of context or they simply do not say exactly that or there is a typo.

The maximum size of the sample data that can be in USR(SDRAM) is 128MB. So the Chick Corea electric piano would have to be loaded into at least a 512MB FLASH Board. The convention is to use Slot 1 first (FL1).

That said, a file with the extension n2.X3A will have NO SAMPLE data for FL2. That is what the “.n2” means. Don’t make it more complicated than that.

The load option should be set:
USR > USR
FL1 > FL1
FL2 > None

From the instructions (10th anniversary pack; only the USR load option is mentioned):
7. Press the cursor up button once, then use the INC/YES button to select the file name “CHICK’S MARK V.n2.X3A” The name should highlight.
8. Press the right cursor button once, so the “Type” field is highlighted again, then press the right cursor button again to move to and highlight the field next to “Load USR”. Use either the INC/YES button or the Data Wheel to change the field so it reads “FL1” (if you only have one flashboard installed) or “FL1” or “FL2” (if you have 2 flashboards installed – in other words, the samples can be loaded to either of 2 flashboards installed).
9. Press the SF2 button (Load). Then press the INC/YES button once.

If you have been using the words interchangeably or to mean the same thing, you can see now, it will be important to understand the difference. Because “Sample” data is treated differently from “Waveform” data. (And it is simply a matter of size… the amount of data each represents).

I understood the difference; you guys (Dave Pollich, et al) did a good job of driving that point home. I didn’t know the n* extension only refers to sample data and not waveform data, so thanks for clarifying. However, per this explanation and your load option recommendations above for the Chick Corea n2.X3A file, if I set FL2 > None, isn’t there a chance I would miss loading some waveform data if it’s stored in the FL2 block?

You’re missing one very important piece of information. The original data file, on your usb drive, does NOT have ANY waveform data stored on either FL1 or FL2. ALL the waveform data is stored IN the file ON your USB drive.

When the library was programmed, the waveform data WAS stored to FL1, or FL2, or wherever. But when it was again SAVED, by the programmer, it was saved “with samples” BACK onto the programmer’s USB drive, then transferred to computer, then sent to Yamaha and also posted by Keyfax.

Do NOT worry about FL2. Just to be sure, set FL1>FL1, and FL2>FL2.That’s the default setting for loading when your XF is powered up anyway.

Hi Dave. I am well-aware that a library file on a USB drive cannot load data to my flash board or USR RAM without an explicit load command. Perhaps it was the last part of my question “stored in the FL2 block” that raised an alarm.

Check my understanding of all library file contents:

n* means no sample data; does not reference waveform or voice param data

Example:

n2.X3A file structure:
- USR data block
- [always] voice/perf param data
- [possibly] waveform data
- [possibly] sample data
- FL1 data block
- [never] voice/perf param data - [possibly] waveform data
- [possibly] sample data
- FL2 data block
- [never] voice/perf param data
- [possibly] waveform data
- no sample data

My question was: since there’s no way to tell by the file extension whether waveform data is stored in the FL2 data block (which is contained inside the library file, to clarify my understanding), would there be a chance I’d miss loading that data with a FL2>None setting?

I understand your recommendation to stick to the load defaults, but it’d be nice to know exactly what data block(s) (USR/FL1/FL2) each type of data (sample/waveform/voice param) is stored in the file instead of a vague extension that says “well, your samples aren’t in this block, but they could be anywhere else in the file, and we’re not telling you where your waveform data is. Good luck.”

By the way, all you guys with Guru status make this the best keyboard community on the interwebs. One of the reasons I came back to Yamaha when deciding on a new board. Don’t let my stubborn persistence make you think otherwise. :)

skidalgo - 11 June 2012 05:16 PM

n* means no sample data; does not reference waveform or voice param data

Example:

n2.X3A file structure:
- USR data block
- [always] voice/perf param data
- [possibly] waveform data
- [possibly] sample data
- FL1 data block
- [never] voice/perf param data - [possibly] waveform data
- [possibly] sample data
- FL2 data block
- [never] voice/perf param data
- [possibly] waveform data
- no sample data

My question was: since there’s no way to tell by the file extension whether waveform data is stored in the FL2 data block (which is contained inside the library file, to clarify my understanding), would there be a chance I’d miss loading that data with a FL2>None setting?

I understand your recommendation to stick to the load defaults, but it’d be nice to know exactly what data block(s) (USR/FL1/FL2) each type of data (sample/waveform/voice param) is stored in the file instead of a vague extension that says “well, your samples aren’t in this block, but they could be anywhere else in the file, and we’re not telling you where your waveform data is. Good luck.”

No, you missed it again.

here it is in a nutshell -

“n2.x3A” means there was waveform AND sample data stored on FL1, and NOTHING was stored on FL2
“n1.x3a” means there was waveform AND sample data stored on FL2
and NOTHING was stored on FL1.
“N3.x3A” means the file was stored onto a USB drive, and there is NOTHING in either FL1 or FL2.

ALL commercial (Keyfax)XF libraries at the Shop that are LARGER than 128MB are “n2.X3A” files. The reason? The programmers assume that users only purchased ONE flashboard, and it is installed to FL 1 slot. There is never anything in FL2 in any library posted for sale at the Shop.

ALL commercial XF libraries that are smaller than 128MB are designed so that you may load them to onboard user RAM, or FL1, or FL2.

Now, in the case where you have TWO flashboards, one in FL1 and one in FL2, and you want to store the samples and waveform data for a library larger than 128MB, and has an “n2.x3A” name, to FL2, simply, set your load parameters this way:

USR > none
FL1 > FL2
FL2 . none

To maybe make it even simpler, the parameter on the left (USR, FL1, or FL2) is the source FROM which you are copying. The parameter on the right (USR, FL1, FL2) are the destinations you are copying TO.

By the way, all you guys with Guru status make this the best keyboard community on the interwebs. One of the reasons I came back to Yamaha when deciding on a new board. Don’t let my stubborn persistence make you think otherwise. :)

Hi skidalgo,
Just to clarify this point, the titles bestowed upon the users here is simply done by the calculated thread counts. Believe me, I’M NOT A GURU TO THE MOTIF KNOWLEDGE.

For folks like Dave who are gifted with technique and vast experience, there should be a different title.
After you have posted more threads, your titles will also change.

There are several extremely dedicated and generous volunteers here who should have their titles advanced beyond Guru, to something more fitting…

Have fun and enjoy your Forum.

Chas

DavePolich - 11 June 2012 06:55 PM

No, you missed it again.

here it is in a nutshell -

“n2.x3A" means there was waveform AND sample data stored on FL1, and NOTHING was stored on FL2
“n1.x3a” means there was waveform AND sample data stored on FL2
and NOTHING was stored on FL1.
“N3.x3A” means the file was stored onto a USB drive, and there is NOTHING in either FL1 or FL2.

I took my understanding from Bad_Mister’s explanation above that the n* extension referred to sample data only and not waveform data. Who is correct?

USR > none
FL1 > FL2
FL2 . none

So does this mean that n1 and n2 files will never have sample or waveform data in the USR section of the file?

To maybe make it even simpler, the parameter on the left (USR, FL1, or FL2) is the source FROM which you are copying. The parameter on the right (USR, FL1, FL2) are the destinations you are copying TO.

I understood that from your video, but Bad_Mister’s explanation above threw in a wrinkle regarding what kind of data the extension referred to.

Bad Mister and I are telling you the same
thing.

“n” means “no data”. As in NO samples
AND no waveforms.

Yes, an “n1” or “n2” file will NEVER have any
USR data.

A waveform MUST contain samples (audio data)
It cant exist without samples. BUT, you can
edit a waveform so that the samples that
are in the waveform are RE-ARRANGED,
maybe assigned different velocity windows
or different key ranges or whatever. It doesnt
alter the individual samples, just where they
are and what they do. When you edit a
waveform and then re-save that waveform,
you can save just the waveform edits back
to a file on USB without having to save all
the samples that go with it.

But this is getting WAY ahead of things.
Just re-read Bad Mister’s and my replies.
You can see we both are telling you the
same thing.

Just follow the instructions I gave and you
will be fine.

Yes, an “n1” or “n2” file will NEVER have any
USR data.

Does this mean that only voice/perf data will be in the USR file block, or does it mean that no data at all will be in the USR file block?

With all due and sincere respect, yours and Bad_Mister’s replies do not match, and one or both were either unclear by accident or have left room for interpretation. I don’t mind following instructions, but I still prefer a clear, definitive understanding where each type of data (sample, waveform, and voice/perf) is stored in a file given a particular file extension.

My original question:

For an n3.X3A file, does it make any difference if I select FL1>FL1, FL2>FL2 versus FL1>None, FL2>None; since no data was stored in either FL memory block of the file (by the “n3” extension), no data would be transferred from those memory blocks regardless of where the data is being directed in load options, correct?

Your explanation:

“n” means “no data”. As in NO samples
AND no waveforms.

Bad_Mister’s explanation:

No, incorrect. It makes a difference. The extension .n3.X3A means NO SAMPLE data for either FL1 or FL2. It does not mean that “no data was stored in either FL memory blocks of the file)… it literally means NO SAMPLE data.

In fact, WAVEFORM data is stored in the file. ...

The dot “n” extension always refers to the “Sample” data and where it will or will not be found in the file. All files that you save would include the Waveform information.

Quick, someone lock this thread! Enough already! =)

I’m really not looking to make enemies or push anyone’s buttons on this forum, so for safety’s sake let’s just leave things where they are now. If I get any concrete findings later on n* file structure I’ll be sure to post them. Thanks again guys.

I appreciate your wanting to know. And it is a very deep subject.  Here is what is at the heart of the issue:

When dealing with the FLASH BOARDs and audio data, you can treat “Samples” separately from the “Waveforms”. (the reason flexibility and speed). You can opt to SAVE “with” or “without” samples. Again the consideration is speed and flexibility.

Samples are audio data (data very large in size) - they make sound
Waveforms are the immediate parameters that herd the samples into sets (data size very small) - they make no sound.

The Loading Options for the FLASH Boards cover every scenario. (Some you will use, others you may not ever need)
The USR (SDRAM) portion works slightly differently because of its small size and the volatility of the storage memory.

When a file is pre-fixed “.n3” no Samples for FL1 or FL2, you will never be able to load FL1 or FL2 Samples from this file. It does not contain any samples (audio) for FL1 or FL2… but it may contain Waveform information (instructions for how Samples would be used).

How (after the fact) can you tell if a .n3.X3A file has Waveform data intended for Samples in FL1 or FL2? or for the USR(SDRAM) for that matter?
You can look in the file’s “FL1” and “FL2” waveform folder, there is also a “USR” folder… here’s how:

Press [FILE]
Set the Load TYPE = ‘waveform’
Using the LEFT CURSOR arrow move Up to the DIRECTORY
Select your .n3.X3A file
Press [ENTER] to open this file
You will see three folders - these folders contain the Waveform data for:
USR (SDRAM) (both Samples and Waveform)
FL1 (waveform only)
FL2 (waveform only)

If a folder is empty, it means that no data was in these storage locations at the time the file was made.
If however, you made a file and set options to SAVE “without sample”, literally the file is made without storing FL1 and FL2 sampled data (which could be HUGE) - the benefit is a file that is much smaller, and quicker to navigate - you don’t need to SAVE the data you install on FL1 and FL2 in every file. The “without sample” options does, in fact, SAVE the USR(SDRAM) data (always - there is no option to OPT OUT from saving the USR sample data that is in the 128MB SDRAM). It saves the USR because it is small enough and it is not backed up like the LARGE data on FL Boards.

The “NONE” LOAD options should be used, in general, so that you do not unknowingly create Duplicate Waveforms… which is what you would do if you opted to set your LOAD OPTIONS to
“FL1 > FL1 without sample”

You are telling the XF to look into the Waveform Folder and load just the Waveform data - which it does. It does not load the sample, but it does add these Waveforms to your WAVEFORM LIST (UTILITY >[F6] FLASH).

DUPLICATE WAVEFORMS on your LIST can happen because the system does not overwrite data - it simply loads data to the lowest numbered empty location. You do not want it to overwrite data - it always errs on the side of duplicating the data, (rather than destroying something you installed - you need to uninstall it to remove it… It will let you decide if the data is actually the same or just named the same thing.

It is not a totally dumb system either. If you are, say, loading individual VOICES from the same source file, the XF will detect automatically if the audio data it needs is already in memory. In that case it only loads what it needs and it does not Duplicate any data. If you are loading individual VOICES from several different source files - and it detects the NAME already in memory, it cannot know if both waveforms happened to be named “C1 piano” that one is a Yamaha CFIII and other is a Steinway D - it loads it, and lets you sort it out. Naming conventions by programmers sometimes are very similar (Note Number/instrument) so duplicate names can occur more than you think.

If you have data installed on FLASH and you continue to load data, and do not heed the “NONE” option, pretty soon you will get a report that says “Waveform Memory Full!”. A maximum of 2048 Waveforms can be housed on a single FL Board.

Again “NONE” option is to be used when you do not need to change anything on your FL board and you do not want to possibly create a duplicate entry of the Waveform data. NONE - as in the number of changes that need to be made to your FLASH with the data you are loading.

You can eliminate duplicates manually, using the XF’s own function that will show you where the data is used, show all duplicates and allows you to delete them (and, thankfully, it automatically repoints all the Voice’s to the one that you keep) Which is a wonderful tool - when you don’t know about the “NONE” option.

Loading the FL1 or FL2 Waveform data (sans the sampled audio) is not something you need to do in any normal operation - but as you’ve seen in other applications, it will come in very handy. After all, the Waveform data in the FL1 and FL2 folder will not make sound.

As far as you are concerned with one Motif XF, and one (or two) FL boards. You may never need to load the waveforms separate from the samples. Just understand there are many options for different situations. If you are on the road and take your boards with you, and you put them in a Motif XF that is not your own. You will understand the need for all the other options that are available.

BTW - No Voice parameters, or Performance parameters are ever stored in USR(SDRAM), FL1 or FL2 ever. Those parametes have always had a “permanent” home in the internal USER FLASH ROM memory of the Motif XF: in the USER 1, USER 2, USER 3, USER 4, DRUM USER, and PERFORMANCE memory banks. Data written to these locations remains in memory between power cycles.
Voice and Performance data is always loaded from a file to the internal dedicated locations - never, ever to the FLASH Boards or Sample RAM.

Good explanation. I think that just about covers most scenarios. Thanks! I’d like to condense it all down to something like a diagram at some point, where there’s no room for misunderstanding.

I read everything and I have a few questions:

1. When I load from the entire library one voice (including wave) as the difference in setting the right side of USR> USR or USR> FL1?
(I have FL1 1GB.)
If I want to make this voice FL1 is stored in memory after power off. Maybe there is no difference?Maybe when USR>FL1: all data of performance, voices and waves is saving in FL1..?Is it better..?

Of course I have to write it yet - “ALL” and “with sample”.

2. If I Loading 3 sounds (such as voice number 1, 5, 9) with a single library that have the same waves. It is these waves will be saved in memory flash 3 times? (I will be needlessly lost capacity memory).

Is there a way to do it?

Do I have to edit each voice individually and set the same wave number. But then if I can delete the other two waves of the same?

Sorry for my English ...

1. When I load from the entire library one voice (including wave) as the difference in setting the right side of USR> USR or USR> FL1?
(I have FL1 1GB.)
If I want to make this voice FL1 is stored in memory after power off. Maybe there is no difference?Maybe when USR>FL1: all data of performance, voices and waves is saving in FL1..?Is it better..?

Of course I have to write it yet - “ALL” and “with sample”.

It is very important to understand this:

Only Samples and Waveforms are installed on the FLASH Boards.
Voices, Performance, do not get installed on the FLASH Boards
VOICES are placed in USER 1, USER 2, USER 3, USER 4 or DR USER - these parameters will always remain in memory between power off and power on.
PERFORMANCES are placed in their own USER 1, USER 2, and USER 3 banks.

Only the Samples and Waveforms (which are volatile) have to be installed on the FLASH Board.

2. If I Loading 3 sounds (such as voice number 1, 5, 9) with a single library that have the same waves. It is these waves will be saved in memory flash 3 times? (I will be needlessly lost capacity memory).

No. The Motif XF is smart enough to recognize the names of the Samples and Waveforms and will automatically load the data just once - as long as the data is coming from a single file. It see that the VOICE uses a specifc set of samples and it simply (and automatically) repoints the VOICE 5 and VOICE 9 to the same waves - the ones it loaded when it loaded VOICE 1.

Is there a way to do it?

The Motif XF does this AUTOMATICALLY !!!

Do I have to edit each voice individually and set the same wave number. But then if I can delete the other two waves of the same?

No, that would not be necessary - it is all automatic!!!