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Viewing topic "Arpeggio chords"

     
Posted on: March 28, 2012 @ 12:15 AM
emanuelsj
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Total Posts:  121
Joined  08-20-2011
status: Pro

Hi,

So this is what I have: a Performance using 3 arpeggios for the left hand and a solo instrument for the right hand. When I simultaneously press C, E, G with my left hand I will get a C chord and till here everything’s fine. When I press E, G and upper C, I get the exact same C chord but I want to have an “overthrown” C… This “overthrown” note has a specific name that unfortunately I don’t know in English.

For e.g., if you’ll open Performance “Dreamscape” (which is in SpLyr/Symph) and press C, E and G, you’ll have the C chord. If you press E, G and upper C you will have the same C chord.

BUT if you’ll open another Performance, such as “Sarah’s Dream” (which is also located in SpLyr/Symph), when you’ll input E, G and upper C, you will get the “overthrown” C I’m looking for.

This “overthrowning” procedure works for other chords either, which will positively change the overall sound of a performance.

My question is how can I edit “Dreamscape” performance in order to be able to have this kind of “overthrown” chords (the same as in “Sarah’s Dream").

Thank you in advance!

  [ Ignore ]  

Posted on: March 28, 2012 @ 03:37 AM
VikasSharma
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Joined  10-05-2010
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I’m not in front of my Motif right now but I guess this has something to do with the way the Arpeggios used in these Performances have been created.

There are three different CONVERT TYPES: normal, fixed and org notes.

See threads below for explanation:

http://www.motifator.com/index.php/forum/viewthread/456106/
http://www.motifator.com/index.php/forum/viewthread/454182/
http://www.motifator.com/index.php/forum/viewthread/459339/

Hope that helps.

  [ Ignore ]  

Posted on: March 28, 2012 @ 08:52 AM
Bad_Mister
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“overthrown” I’m going to guess is an” inversion”.

The arpeggios phrases in the “Dreamscape” PERFORMANCE are four measure phrases
_ Call up Dreamscape and press [EDIT]
_ Select PART [1]
_ on the [F3] ARP OTHER screen turn the LOOP OFF for PARTS 1, 2 and 3 (the arpeggio PARTS)

This will allow you to hear the arp phrase of each PART play through once
Isolate each one so you are familiar with what they are doing.
_on the [F2] ARP MAIN screen you can turn HOLD OFF if you wish

These arps are set to KEY MODE = SORT which means they will follow a predetermined pattern based on the analysis of the KEYs being pressed.
The VELOCITY MODE = THRU means that the velocity of your key presses will determine the output level of the arpeggio phrase

All of these arps (in Dreamscape") were developed for specifically for the arpeggio engine as introduced on the Motif XS and exhibit a specific “Chord Intelligence”. This innovation expanded on the arpeggio technology developed for the Motif ES (2003) which had many specifc “phrases” not previously available in arpeggiators (at least they were not expected) and it this technology that is what allows the current arpeggio engines to “correct” keyboard-player-guitar voicings (among other things).

What I mean by “keyboard-player-guitar Voicings” is that mostly keyboard players do not understand how a guitar player voices a chord - (They would never Voice Cmajor C-E-G like your example). So even though as a keyboard player you may use a chord with a cluster of notes (semitone intervals) that physically cannot be fingered on a guitar’s fretboard, the XS arpeggiod (of this type) will sort out what chord quality you are attempting to play and substitute an appropriate chord spacing for a guitar.

Now the PERFORMANCE you selected is not a guitar (I know) but if you look at the names of the ARPEGGIO TYPES for this particular PERFORMANCE you will see they all have “_XS” at the end of their name.

ARPEGGIO TYPE with “_XS” at the end of the type name
These Arpeggios use a newly developed chord recognition technology to determine what notes should be played back by the Arpeggio. This XS type of arpeggio has the following benefits:
_ The arpeggios respond only to any area on the keyboard where an XS type of arpeggio is assigned. Other areas of the keyboard do not effect the chord recognition. This allows very natural keyboard playing across the entire keyboard with arpeggio generated bass and backing parts
_ The arpeggio will always play harmonically correct parts. These are especially useful for bass and chordal backing parts.

ARPEGGIO TYPE with a normal name
In addition to the above types, there are three playback types: the Arpeggios created for use of NORMAL Voices and played back using only the played notes and their octave notes, the Arpeggios created for use of DRUM Voices, and ARpeggios containing mainly non-note events.

The Dreamscape is full of harmonic phrases that use this chord recognition function to shape the melodies/counter-melodies that it plays.

The other PERFORMANCE you mention “Sarah’s Dream” uses Arpeggio types with normal names, so it is always influenced by the notes you play - if you play a non-recognized chord like C-C#-D the arp pattern does not care and plays what you instruct it to play… C-C#-D

With “Dreamscape” (arps with “_XS” it will recognize Major, Minor, Diminished, Augmented, Dominant, etc., chords and it will adjust the melodic line to match, as best it can, what you outline within the chord that it decides you are attempting to voice.

See page 62-63 of your Motif XS Owner’s Manual for more on TYPES of arps and the parameters that control them.

  [ Ignore ]  

Posted on: March 28, 2012 @ 10:05 AM
VikasSharma
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So, Bad_Mister, could you please explain how these _XS type arpeggios are created with a small example to get us started?

  [ Ignore ]  

Posted on: March 28, 2012 @ 01:44 PM
emanuelsj
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Joined  08-20-2011
status: Pro

Hello Bad_Mister, and thank you for your fast and efficient reply!

- Indeed, I was speaking about “inversion” earlyer. After I read your lines (and also checked the 62-63 page from the manual) I understood that there is no way to stop these chords from acting like that, right?

It’s a petty, cause “Dreamscape” sounds really great but that chord intelligence makes a performance kind of “harsh”. I guess this technology was ment to help unexperimented players or something. For a future keyboard (or even better, on the next Motif XS firmware update) it would be just great having the possibility to turn on and off this keyboard capability, which makes it easy to use for some and almost impossible to use for some others (I refere strictly to the XS arpeggios).

Thank you and have a nice day, Bad_mister!

- VikasSharma, thank you for the useful links, I managed to read only the fisr one, cause I had a busy day at the office. Cheers!

  [ Ignore ]  

Posted on: April 02, 2012 @ 03:27 PM
Bad_Mister
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So, Bad_Mister, could you please explain how these _XS type arpeggios are created with a small example to get us started?

The _XS type is a special kind of arp developed to specifically work with melodic and chordal phrases. They were developed and designed by the engineers initially for the Motif XS arpeggio engine. And much like the orchestral samples in the WAVE ROM, you cannot effectively “make your own” _XS type arps. You can make some Chord Intelligent arps however.

What you can do:
Making your own arps is something that, again, is at the deeper end of the things-to-do pool - what you have been given is a way to produce simple melodic arps, as well as those that will playback, as played.

I can help you understand the basics of how to go about making a user arpeggio.
Let’s take an arp melody phrase built from a single source track…

Call up a blank PATTERN
Let’s use the four measure default
Play the first four measures of “Mary Had a Little Lamb” Key of “C”
Starting on the “E” above middle “C”

If you create three arps from this - your understanding of arps will take a step forward
Use ORG NOTE first
Use FIXED NOTE next
Use NORMAL next

When you complete the recording of the phrase, press [STORE] and write your Pattern to Flash

Press [JOB]
Press [F5] TRACK
Select JOB 07: PUT TRACK TO ARPEGGIO

In the dialog box that shows up:
Set the Measure range = 001-005 (this is four complete measures)
Set the target USER location for the ARPEGGIO start with 001 for the ORG NOTE experiment
Under “ARP TR1” set the track you used to record the phrase (TR1) and set the “Convert Type” to ORG NOTE

When you set the CONVERT TYPE = ORG NOTE the Original Note Root parameter appears
Cursor up and set the ORIGINAL NOTE ROOT = “C3”

Press [ENTER] to execute
You have now created an arpeggio that will be chord intelligent with the ability to recognize the lowest pitch as the ROOT… and it will play correctly when fed the chord quality (no, it will not recognize inversions of chords - trust me, writing those that do requires complex Note Transposition Tables)

Now that you have created your melodic phrase and converted to an ORG NOTE Arpeggio
Go to [VOICE] mode and try it out:
Call up FULL CONCERT GRAND
Press [F4] ARPEGGIO
Assign your USER ARP to this VOICE
Turn the SWITCH = ON
Turn HOLD = ON
Select USR 001

If you play just a C it will play the melody in the key of C
If you play just a D it will transpose the melody to the key of D
If you play C minor it will play the melody with a Flat 3rd
If you play D minor it will play the melody in D with a Flat 3rd
If you play a “C-Eb” that is enough to define the minor chord
if you play C diminished it will play the melody with a Flat 3rd and Flat 5th
etc. etc.
It is that simple and that complex.

Rinse and repeat, this time assign the “Convert Type” differently
FIXED is similar to ORG NOTE, in that it could play a specific melody, except: no matter what key you use to trigger playback the result is “fixed” - it does not transpose. This convert type is ideal, as you might imagine, for DRUM and PERCUSSION arps. 

With the same source song melody… use the Convert Type “Normal” - this is what an arpeggio normally does- plays the rhythm of your source data and takes the information of the currently held notes to do its thing with it. It will never play the melody correctly on its own. Arps traditionally did not do melodies, this is a re-invention of the arpeggio. Arpeggio traditionally did up, down, up/down, down/up, etc. Later more complex rhythmic stuff, and finally phrase-based melody arps, counter-melody arps, and the guitar intelligent chord voicing arps that you have in the XS/XF

  [ Ignore ]  

Posted on: May 16, 2012 @ 06:37 PM
halylilian
Total Posts:  43
Joined  04-08-2012
status: Regular

Hi Bad_mister,

I created a Bass sound pattern with 3 notes (D, F, and A) on a track and turn it in an user ARP.  When I played either Dm or Dmajor (with 3 notes)...etc, the ARP sounds right (with three notes as expected). 

Now, I want to play a Dmajor7 (as a transition chord) which should have 4 notes.

I understand that turning a pattern of Bass sound with 3 notes, the converted ARP will only play 3 notes as above. 

My question is:

> Which are 3 or 4 basic notes I should play in a pattern so that after the conversion from a pattern into an ARP, the ARP can plays 4 note to sound like a Major7, Minor7 chord...or any other chords with 4 notes.  This is because I want to play Dm, Dmajor, Dmajor7, and Gm, or even Cmajor7....etc.

Thank you

  [ Ignore ]  


 
     


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