About ins Efx. I understand that if i activate an ins Efx on a track in pattern mode, in order for that effect to take effect it would have to have belonged with that particular instrument from voice mode, correct? Is that so and are we still doing this old thing on the XF?

So it’s not at all possible to change an ins Efx type while in pattern mode, you’re stuck with whatever the instrument can offer? Is that so still? This needs to change and change quick!
I could be wrong but let me know please.
Peace

In both Pattern and Song mode, you have the concept of a “Mixing”.  Yes, by default, if you assign a particular voice to a track and have the Insert effect turned ON it will pick up the insert effect tied to the particular voice.

HOWEVER, you can change it and pick something completely different and save it with the Mixing. 

I’m speaking of the XF, but perhaps this is true of the XS as well.

You typically save a voice with a different Insert effect assigned to it as a “Mix Voice”.  To be frank, I have only used this occasionally and am certainly not an expert, but it indeed worked (I think I wanted a phaser effect on a Rhodes electric piano and the Voice I used had an Insert that was using Chorus).

Hope that helps!  Please look it up in the manual to make sure I’m not blowing smoke.

Sincerely,

Kevin B. Selby
http://kevinselby.com <-- Peaceful Music
http://facebook.com/BajaDunes <-- Live Performance

On page 189 of the Reference Manual it states thusly:

(please note that in a Mixing of 16 tracks, you can only use an Insert effect on 8 of them).

Insertion Effect in the Mixing mode
In addition to the three Effect blocks above, special
Insertion Effects are available in the Mixing mode. Keep in
mind that Insertion Effects cannot be applied to all 16 parts
simultaneously. The MOTIF XF features eight Insertion
Effects, allowing you to independently process up to eight
Parts from among the 1 – 16 parts and the A/D Input part.
You can specify the parts to which the Insertion Effect is
applied by setting the Insertion Effect Switch parameter in
the 1 – 16 display (page 190) and the Audio Part display
(page 191) of the Mixing Play mode.
The most common use for Insertion Effects is in applying
compression or dynamics processing to an individual Part,
or applying a special effect that is only to be used on one
Part, such as distortion or rotary speaker.
Mixing Voices
Up to 16 Normal Voices can be stored for each Song/
Pattern Mixing. This type of Voice is called a Mixing Voice.
Normally, the Voice stored in the Voice mode is assigned to
each Mixing Part. In this method, the sound of the Song/
Pattern you created may be changed unexpectedly if you
edit or delete the Voice used for the Song/Pattern Mixing.
Mixing Voices are provided to prevent these accidental
sound changes. To use this feature, call up a Voice from
User Banks 1 – 4, store the selected Voice to the Mixing
Voice Bank, assign it to the desired Part, then edit the
Mixing as needed. In addition, make sure to store the Voice
as a Mixing Voice after editing the Voice in the Mixing
mode.
Up to 16 Mixing Voices are provided for each Mixing
program, or in other words, for each Song/Pattern.
Selecting a different Song/Pattern calls up a different
Mixing belonging to the new selected Song/Pattern.
If you wish to use a Mixing Voice of a certain Song/Pattern
for another Song/Pattern, execute the copy operation
(page 200) in the Mixing Voice Job mode.

Also, see the following:

Motif XF: The MIX VOICE

Ok, never mind the manual, I walked away from that thing long ago. Let’s stick to your earlier explanation. You mean if I want to change the ins. Effect I can do so by saving the voice as a new voice in pattern mode and not go out back door to voice mode to do that. I guess it still doesn’t allow me to freely change an ins effect because if I want to go back to the previous effect I have to almost destroy the voice again. I guess they call it save but in fact it is destroying the voice, because you can’t just go back to it. Ok hummm I’m thinking loud here ..... So that means if you missed to apply the ins. Efx on a sample during the take you’re pretty much out of luck! Forget about applying any kind of ins effect on a sample later on… Is that so???! Could I be right ??
No, this needs to change on the next machine. The ins Efx are too damn rich to not be available for later processing on samples.

I think so, you tell me. I see big walls and I don’t like them. It’s like apply the ins. Efx during take or go $&@$@ yourself, cause I won’t be here when you need it later. This is an impossible situation on such a state of the art piece of machine.
Could I be right here?
Peace

Mlg4ever - 05 March 2012 04:19 AM

Is that so???

No, that is NOT so.

Please read the article referenced above and, if you have time, the following articles too before you conclude anything.

INSERTION EFFECTS differ from the SYSTEM EFFECTS

Introducing Motif XS EFFECTS

Now before I go reading pages after pages, give me your breakdown version if it’s not so. How do you apply ins. Efx on samples later on.
Peace

In Pattern Mode:

Press [MIXING].
Select your Voice by pressing the corresponding button [1]-[16].
Press [F6] (Vce Edit).
Press [F6] (Effect).
Change your Insertion Effects as desired.
Press [STORE] to store your MIX Voice to a MIX Voice location.
Press [EXIT].
Press [STORE] to store you Pattern Mix.
The MIX Voice will stay with your Pattern.
The original Voice would not be affected.

PS: I’d still suggest that you go through all those articles. They are well worth the read.

now that’s what I’m talking about. I haven’t tried it yet, but I think this breakdown version is what makes the world go round unlike the roundabouts of the longer versions in manuals not well written…
I’ll try this after my coffee break. it’s a quarter to 3 am where I’m at.
peace

VikasSharma - 05 March 2012 04:28 AM

Mlg4ever - 05 March 2012 04:19 AM

Is that so???

No, that is NOT so.

Please read the article referenced above and, if you have time, the following articles too before you conclude anything.

INSERTION EFFECTS differ from the SYSTEM EFFECTS

Introducing Motif XS EFFECTS

I tried and I am happy to let you know that it worked. I followed the steps and actually applied ins. Efx on sample beyond takes stages. 

Following your advice I read the whole thing. I was going to read it anyway. Very resourceful and I learned lots of curves although in the article “INS  EFFECTS differ from the SYSTEM EFFECTS”,  I didn’t understand the need to copy ins. EFX over the new mix after carrying a voice from voice mode to pattern/song. Is this an optional thing or is there a real advantage to doing so? 

I assumed after turning param. With voice on, this activates the ins  efx on that individual voice hence allowing additional/different Efx from the system Efx to be used on the remaining 15 tracks on the mix. Why copy the same carried over Efx of the one voice over the entire mix. I didn’t see the benefits of it or am i missing something?

I’d rather this one voice carries its ins. Efx from voice, and I use different Efx on the rest of the tracks and have more diversity on the effects types, wouldn’t you?  Please clarify for me would you. What good does it do me to go from the option of more to that of less in this case? 
Peace

Following your advice I read the whole thing. I was going to read it anyway. Very resourceful and I learned lots of curves although in the article “INS  EFFECTS differ from the SYSTEM EFFECTS”,  I didn’t understand the need to copy ins. EFX over the new mix after carrying a voice from voice mode to pattern/song. Is this an optional thing or is there a real advantage to doing so?

You do not, repeat, do not have to COPY INSERTION EFFECTS to a mix, you need only activate the “INS FX SW” (Insertion Effects Switch) for the PART. Any 8 PARTS of a MIX can have the INSERTION SWITCH = ON.

I assumed after turning param. With voice on, this activates the ins  efx on that individual voice hence allowing additional/different Efx from the system Efx to be used on the remaining 15 tracks on the mix. Why copy the same carried over Efx of the one voice over the entire mix. I didn’t see the benefits of it or am i missing something?

You may want to re-read the “Parameter with Voice” article… it actually has nothing to do with the Insertion Effects, at all. It has to do with OFFSET parameters (like Filter, and Amplitude settings, etc). Again COPY is not at all necessary for INSERTION EFFECTS, period. And Insertion Effects are not apart of the “Parameter with Voice” function.

I’d rather this one voice carries its ins. Efx from voice, and I use different Efx on the rest of the tracks and have more diversity on the effects types, wouldn’t you?  Please clarify for me would you. What good does it do me to go from the option of more to that of less in this case?

Don’t be afraid to read it again… we think you misunderstood 1) How Insertion Effects are moved from VOICE mode to a PART of MIXING. they are not copied, you choose to activate them or not. 2) It is the System Effects (the external effects) that must be copied.. because as System effects they are shared via the Send/Return routing situation. 3) Parameter with Voice has to do with parameter that are OFFSET to the original programming.

_
For example, if you move the CUTOFF knob, this gestures either ADDs (raises the cutoff frequency) or SUBTRACTs (lowers the cutoff frequency) of all 8 separate Filters - remember there are 8 separate Element filters, each individually programmable. The CUTOFF knob is a way to control them all together as a group. Otherwise it would be impossible to perform a simple filter sweep - if you had no way to control all 8 together.

Analog synths had just one filter that everything ran through, great for performing but also limited the amount of detail you do with that type of synthesis engine. Here each of the 8 oscillators has its own individual filter. And each of the 8 oscillators could be responsible for a different aspect of the Voice. Eacg with its own parameters - the FILTER CUTOFF and RESONANCE parameters that are copied when you activate “Parameter with Voice” would include any overall OFFSET you made with this group control. The individual Filter parameters of course are apart of the VOICE itself, what PARAM. WITH VOICE does is apply any OFFSETS you’ve made to the VOICE (using the listed parameters).
Hope that helps.

Bad_Mister - 19 March 2012 10:17 AM

Following your advice I read the whole thing. I was going to read it anyway. Very resourceful and I learned lots of curves although in the article “INS  EFFECTS differ from the SYSTEM EFFECTS”,  I didn’t understand the need to copy ins. EFX over the new mix after carrying a voice from voice mode to pattern/song. Is this an optional thing or is there a real advantage to doing so?

You do not, repeat, do not have to COPY INSERTION EFFECTS to a mix, you need only activate the “INS FX SW” (Insertion Effects Switch) for the PART. Any 8 PARTS of a MIX can have the INSERTION SWITCH = ON.

I assumed after turning param. With voice on, this activates the ins  efx on that individual voice hence allowing additional/different Efx from the system Efx to be used on the remaining 15 tracks on the mix. Why copy the same carried over Efx of the one voice over the entire mix. I didn’t see the benefits of it or am i missing something?

You may want to re-read the “Parameter with Voice” article… it actually has nothing to do with the Insertion Effects, at all. It has to do with OFFSET parameters (like Filter, and Amplitude settings, etc). Again COPY is not at all necessary for INSERTION EFFECTS, period. And Insertion Effects are not apart of the “Parameter with Voice” function.

I’d rather this one voice carries its ins. Efx from voice, and I use different Efx on the rest of the tracks and have more diversity on the effects types, wouldn’t you?  Please clarify for me would you. What good does it do me to go from the option of more to that of less in this case?

Don’t be afraid to read it again… we think you misunderstood 1) How Insertion Effects are moved from VOICE mode to a PART of MIXING. they are not copied, you choose to activate them or not. 2) It is the System Effects (the external effects) that must be copied.. because as System effects they are shared via the Send/Return routing situation. 3) Parameter with Voice has to do with parameter that are OFFSET to the original programming.

_
For example, if you move the CUTOFF knob, this gestures either ADDs (raises the cutoff frequency) or SUBTRACTs (lowers the cutoff frequency) of all 8 separate Filters - remember there are 8 separate Element filters, each individually programmable. The CUTOFF knob is a way to control them all together as a group. Otherwise it would be impossible to perform a simple filter sweep - if you had no way to control all 8 together.

Analog synths had just one filter that everything ran through, great for performing but also limited the amount of detail you do with that type of synthesis engine. Here each of the 8 oscillators has its own individual filter. And each of the 8 oscillators could be responsible for a different aspect of the Voice. Eacg with its own parameters - the FILTER CUTOFF and RESONANCE parameters that are copied when you activate “Parameter with Voice” would include any overall OFFSET you made with this group control. The individual Filter parameters of course are apart of the VOICE itself, what PARAM. WITH VOICE does is apply any OFFSETS you’ve made to the VOICE (using the listed parameters).
Hope that helps.

Ok, I reread the article, you’re right Bad_Mister; it is addressed as system Efx. In fact here’s a copy of the line:
“So if you copy the System effects of the VOICE in question to the current MIXING setup, then it will be the System Effects that all 16 PARTS must share.”

It is clearly talking about copying the System effects, my mistake. However, I’m still curious as to the need to do the copy job of this system effect. Shouldn’t there already be by default, some kind of system effects present and usable on all the other 15 tracks without copying it from the voice referred to as the “voice in question?” I guess this was my concern when I asked if it was optional or if it presented a real benefit.
hope for a reply..
Thanks

Shouldn’t there already be by default, some kind of system effects present and usable on all the other 15 tracks without copying it from the voice referred to as the “voice in question?”

Hard to see what you are not understanding. But when you call up a new MIXING setup or you initialize one, there is, of course, a default setting for the SYSTEM EFFECT;
Reverb is set to “REV-X HALL”, and the Chorus is set to “G CHORUS”.

All 16 PARTS (musicians) are in the same room (System Effects).

Bad_Mister - 19 March 2012 05:58 PM

Shouldn’t there already be by default, some kind of system effects present and usable on all the other 15 tracks without copying it from the voice referred to as the “voice in question?”

Hard to see what you are not understanding. But when you call up a new MIXING setup or you initialize one, there is, of course, a default setting for the SYSTEM EFFECT;
Reverb is set to “REV-X HALL”, and the Chorus is set to “G CHORUS”.

All 16 PARTS (musicians) are in the same room (System Effects).

Trust me I hate the pace at which I’m getting around these things. 

Ok, I did the operation of carrying the Mr. Finger over to pattern one more time to get clarity. I carry it over and now I’m in pattern mode with my Mr. Finger on track 1 and the default system effects are REV-X HALL for reverb, and G CHORUS for Chorus. If I leave things as is at this point am I ok and are All 16 PARTS (musicians) in the same room (System Effects) without doing the copy system efx from the carried over voice. 
help me understand this Bad_Mister, does this mean that the carried over voice from voice mode not only maintains its ins efx (which is what you were showing how to do. The focus), but it also brings along a different set of system effects other than the default ones, from voice mode? Because I read the article again and I just don’t see where the DELAY LR STEREO and the SPX HALL could have come from other than from voice mode. 

I am under the impression that carrying the voice over to pattern, temporarily puts the musicians in different environments as far as system efx,  and in order to fix this the system effect must be copied from the “voice in question” that’s my concern. That’s why I wanted to know if I can do without the extra step of copying the system efx from the carried over voice. 

Not trying to be confusing but trying to solve my own confusions. 

Thanks

You NEVER “carry over system effects” to a song or pattern mix when you
place a voice on a track in that mix. Never.

When you select a voice for a track, and activate the INS EFX SW (check it “on") for that track, the voice’s insert effects are turned on. Whenever you choose a voice for any track, its insert effects are automatically “brought with it”. You don’t have to do anything special.

You can copy a voice’s system effects to a mix, yes. That is a separate operation. You don’t have to. Selecting a voice for any track does NOT copy over the voice’s system effects to your mix.

Because I read the article again and I just don’t see where the DELAY LR STEREO and the SPX HALL could have come from other than from voice mode.

Here is a step-by-step (using the Synth Lead Voice: Mr. Finger PRE 5: 053(D05) as an example):

Go to SONG or PATTERN mode where you want to use the “Mr. Finger” VOICE and do the following:

Press [MIXING]
Press [EDIT]
Press a Track Select button [1]-[16] for the Part you want to place the “Mr. Finger”
Press [F1] VOICE
Press [SF1] VOICE
Set the “Param. with Voice” = ON
Move the cursor up to Bank and select PRE 5
Move the cursor down to Number and select 053 Mr. Finger
Press [STORE] to register and lock the selection into the MIX

Now you will want to copy the Reverb and Chorus routing of the Voice into the Mix… here’s how:
Press [MIXING]
Press [JOB]
Press [F3] COPY
Press [SF2] VOICE
Here you can select to copy the (System and other) Effects from this Voice in Voice mode to the current mix

Set this dialog box as follows:
Check the “CURRENT MIX” box
Set the PART to the number of the PART containing the Mr. Finger… PRE 5 Mr. Finger should be seen in the space next to the PART number
Check the Reverb and Chorus boxes with red checks
Press [ENTER] to execute

Now, final step, to set the send amounts for the kit:
Press [MIXING]
On the channel strip for your Mr. Finger set the:
Reverb Send amount = 12
Chorus Send amount = 8

....to match the send amounts in Voice mode. (Of course, you may need to adjust these to taste depending on what other instruments are now sounding in your mix. The SEND AMOUNTS are very subjective and although the delay may be easily heard when the Voice is played alone as in VOICE mode, now in with 15 other sounds in the mix, you may need to adjust this SEND AMOUNT).

This procedure will copy the DELAY LR STEREO and the SPX HALL used for the Mr Finger Voice as the SYSTEM EFFECTS for your Mix.

Final touch:
Press the [SELECTED PART CONTROL] button repeatedly so that the top row is selected. This way the ASSIGN 1 knob and ASSIGN 2 knob will be available as they are in Voice mode and will give you real time control of the CHORUS SEND amount and DRY/WET Balance amount for the Ensemble Detune, respectively.