Looking through all the documentation on the XF and doing some experimenting, it looks like you can’t change between voice and performance mode or change the master number via MIDI program change mesages. Is there any reason for this as it seems a very odd and arbitrary limitation.

Mike

(edited to clarify changing by using PC messages)

Check this thread: Program change in Master Mode from otter midi devices You can change MASTER programs by using MIDI SYSEX messages.

MarPabl - 27 November 2011 05:41 PM

Check this thread: Program change in Master Mode from otter midi devices You can change MASTER programs by using MIDI SYSEX messages.

I’m aware you can do it by SysEx - I should probably have made that clear in the post (which I’ll edit now).

It seems a very odd restriction that you can’t do it by standard MIDI program change messages as it makes it impossible to do certain things without changing modes manually

I did read the thread you linked - the response seemed to be “you can use a foot pedal or SysEx” which is kinda not very useful.

Here’s a scenario.

Firstly, the XF is NOT the master keyboard. It’s part of a bigger rig where all program changes are done using an external source which sends MIDI PC information using standard Bank/Program messages.

Song 1 - a single voice tonewheel organ using the sliders as drawbars.

Song 2 - a performance voice that splits the keyboard.

From what I can work out, I can’t change from song 1 to song 2 from an external controller that sends only PC commands.

What makes this frustrating is that the MIDI documentation does give the bank/PC details to directly select Voice/Drum Voice/Performance etc, it just doesn’t work unless you manually change the keyboard mode.

Mike

Well it may be frustrating but the fact is there is no MIDI cc# for mode change. Yes, you will have to physically change it.

This is why I recommend you put everything in Performance mode if you are simply calling up sounds - because a Performance can contain a single voice or up to four voices that are split or layered. Obviously there would be no cc# for calling up a Master, as Master mode is just that - intended for when the Motif is the master controller.

DavePolich - 27 November 2011 06:48 PM

Well it may be frustrating but the fact is there is no MIDI cc# for mode change. Yes, you will have to physically change it.

Maybe its something that could be fixed in a future update - after all, it’s only a decision that’s been made on a software level. It’s obviously possible as it can be done using SysEx so why purposely add a limitation that stops normal PC messages from working?

I agree it’s frustrating - seems most instruments have some quirk that you look at and think “WHY??!?!?!?!” :)

Not sure I agree with not wanting to change the master via MIDI. The XF might be a master keyboard but not necessarily the master MIDI device if you’re using mixed devices (keyboards, guitar synths, effects etc). And even if it is a master keyboard, if it’s controlling a second XF the same problem occurs if you need to switch the second XF from a single voice that uses sliders to control element levels to a dual voice split keyboard using a performance.

Mike

So you want to use MASTER mode because it allows you to combine VOICE/PERFORMANCE/SONG/PATTERN on a single mode (you have no easy way to change modes with MIDI). Also, you can’t put the first VOICE on any other mode because you may loss the ability to change the “registrations” (ELEMENTS). You don’t seem to need much control for the PERFORMANCE…

Well there are 2 options you can apply:
- Use only PERFORMANCE mode if you will only change up to 4 “drawbars”. For this, you create 4 separate VOICES using each one just one ELEMENT related to each drawbar you’ll use. The you can use 4 sliders to control each one. Also, you could use additional ELEMENTS on certain VOICES and set Assignable Knobs 1/2 to set ELEMENT level so you could get 2 additional “drawbars” which you can control almost independently.
- Analyze the PERFORMANCE you need and check if you can “convert” it to a VOICE. This can be done if you can just use up to 1 arpeggio at once and if the VOICES on the PERFORMANCE are not very complex (too many ELEMENTS or IFX) and even if they are, you may simplify the VOICES to better suit your needs.

While those may not be “the ideal easiest solution”, maybe will work for you.

mykejb - 27 November 2011 07:48 PM

DavePolich - 27 November 2011 06:48 PM

Well it may be frustrating but the fact is there is no MIDI cc# for mode change. Yes, you will have to physically change it.

Maybe its something that could be fixed in a future update - after all, it’s only a decision that’s been made on a software level. It’s obviously possible as it can be done using SysEx so why purposely add a limitation that stops normal PC messages from working?

I agree it’s frustrating - seems most instruments have some quirk that you look at and think “WHY??!?!?!?!” :)

Not sure I agree with not wanting to change the master via MIDI. The XF might be a master keyboard but not necessarily the master MIDI device if you’re using mixed devices (keyboards, guitar synths, effects etc). And even if it is a master keyboard, if it’s controlling a second XF the same problem occurs if you need to switch the second XF from a single voice that uses sliders to control element levels to a dual voice split keyboard using a performance.

Mike

The fact that you can’t change modes via MIDI is a limitation of the MIDI
spec - it isn’t a Yamaha decision, and it can’t be addressed by software
updates, since following the MIDI spec means - you have to follow the MIDI
spec. Changing modes via MIDI isn’t going to happen - so let’s move on..

Your point about wanting to change from a voice that uses sliders to control elements - I get the feeling you’re talking about organ sounds
that use 8 elements. I can’t think of another scenario where it would
be necessary to change element levels in a voice by moving sliders - especially since that can be addressed by assigning controllers (knobs,
assignable function switches, ribbon, pitch bend or mod wheels) to
change element levels.

It’s really a simple solution to put everything in performance mode.
Here’s another solution - laptop running softsynths. Easy, and it really
is what most keyboardists who tour with major artists do these days -
an Apple laptop (or two) onstage is a common sight. It’s not hard to
do and it frees you up in a lot of ways. Trying to run everything with hardware only - that’s not necessary anymore.

Both Master number selection and mode change are possible via MIDI. They are done with SysEx Parameter Change, Mode Change messages, as given in the XF Data List. (Before anyone says that SysEx isn’t acceptable, please read to the end of my post.)

To select the Master number on first device, send:
F0 43 10 7F 12 0A 00 00 dd F7
dd = 00~7F hex (0~127, 1~128 Master number)

To select the Mode on first device, send:
F0 43 10 7F 12 0A 00 01 0n F7
n=0 Voice
n=1 Performance
n=2 Pattern(Multi)
n=3 Song(Multi)
n=4 Master

All that’s needed is something that will convert messages from the controller into the required SysEx. One such “something” is the MIDI Solutions Event Processor Plus. It can convert Control Change or other messages into custom SysEx strings that you enter. Several of the high-numbered CC’s aren’t currently used, and could be a good choice for the purpose.

Disclaimer: I have no connection with MIDI Solutions, and I don’t care if you use the product or not. If you don’t like my “solution”, that’s fine too. :-)

5pinDIN - 28 November 2011 02:24 AM

...One such “something” is theMIDI Solutions Event Processor Plus…

Looks interesting, might get one and have a play with it. I’ve thought of using a laptop/macbook/ipad device but some of the pubs I play in I have to lock up plectrums or they’d go walkies so I don’t think a nice Macbook Air would last long!

I still think it’s a shame that the bank select message details are given in the documentation but don’t work across modes (which are really just another bank of sounds but played in a different way).

Mike

mykejb - 29 November 2011 09:54 PM

[...] some of the pubs I play in I have to lock up plectrums or they’d go walkies [...]

Now that’s petty thievery! :-)

The MIDI Solutions boxes are so small that a thief could easily pocket one
- but then, so could you, to keep it from being a target until it’s in use.