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| yamamfs
Total Posts: 30
Joined 05-30-2011 status: Regular |
I am finding the documentation for the MOX to be sorely lacking. I read that a tutorial is in the making however this should have been completed and shipped with every piece sold. A tutorial could have been put together within a couple of weeks by that dude doing all of the demos at conventions. He obviously knows the product and could have scribbled out a plan and filmed a practical guidance tutorial on the fly. When you have a question the structure of the documentation (Owner’s Manual, Reference Manuals, physical and PDF, etc.) does not nail the steps down. This is like learning a foreign language without a defined path. There are no coordinates like N-E-W-S and you are given general information. You basically have to read everything several times in order to know what is there in text and what is not. Then you still don’t have key points for practical application. Looking up a topic, it does not specifically outline the steps. Instead it gives you general paragraphs and you have to read between the lines. It is very frustrating. I pick things up when I can start with something. Get me going and I’ll explore and discover things. This documentation is like opening a door only to find a wall. I finally was able to record a little pattern with the sequencer but I learned how to do that by freezing and replaying a Youtube demo NOT by finding anything that explained it clearly in the documentation. An example of what the Owner’s Manual offered: Under Creating an Original Song, it describes how to edit existing songs. It does not say how you create one from scratch. Later under the heading of Creating a Drum Part via Step Recording, it describes how to create a song. Supposedly you can play an instrument through the A/D inputs and mix them with the keyboard sounds, even applying some of the effects to the A/D instruments and it even allows recording. Yet, when I max out the A/D Gain the volume of the keyboard is still too loud when I plug in my guitar. There may be something somewhere that addresses this yet finding it will be like interpreting the Rosetta Stone. For now I just want to know how you are supposed to make practical use of the A/D inputs? There has to be a simple way to bring up the volume in the mix. |
Bad_Mister
 Total Posts: 36620
Joined 07-30-2002 status: Moderator |
If reading the manual is anything like reading through your post to find the question, then we agree :-)
The A/D INPUT (Analog-to-Digital) allows you to connect a variety of input devices and route that signal through the MOX processing and out to your speakers and/or on to the computer via the “USB 1/2” outputs.
First, turn the A/D GAIN Control all the way down (best place to start because you do not want to blow your ears off when you get proper signal)
MIC - for generally weak signals. Microphones and guitars/basses for that matter, work on very small voltages and are considered weak signal sources. After all, how much voltage do you think moving a small magnet in a coil of wire produces? Therefore for these type of signals the “MIC” setting will add a significant boost (pre-amp). Microphones generally output signals between -50dB and guitars are about -35dB LINE - for more powerful signals. Tape decks, CD players, keyboards, etc. can have output levels of -10dB through +4dB and therefore do not require much of a preamp boost. If you have an electric guitar, set the MIC/LINE to “MIC” and use the front panel GAIN control and meter to adjust your level. The MIC/LINE parameter is to get you in the ballpark, and the GAIN control to adjust it from there. If you could not get enough level from your guitar, most likely it was due to not having set the MIC/LINE parameter properly to accommodate that type of signal. Once you do, you should have more than enough level.
The A/D INPUT will have its own channel and its own set of parameters. There will be one set of parameters for all of VOICE mode. (You set these up in UTILITY mode):
You can use the A/D INPUT and set it up in each PERFORMANCE, each SONG, and/or each PATTERN as you require for that particular program.
If you are in [SONG] or [PATTERN] mode
Yes, this is in the Owner’s Manual:Connecting a microphone or audio equipment
One last thing, and that should get you started. The A/D INPUT is fixed to the USB 1/2 OUTPUT.
Hope that helps. And just a word on the manuals. Read the OWNER’s MANUAL - use the REFERENCE manual as a look-up reference book. And you will do fine. Take your time. And you can always post your questions (in the form of a question, please) here on Motifator… that is why we are here. :-) Welcome to the forums! |
| yamamfs
Total Posts: 30
Joined 05-30-2011 status: Regular |
Bad, Thanks for sifting through for the question. I’ve been immersed in the MOX and its documentation for days so my thinking is convoluted sort of like being dizzy as part of me is still spinning after a ride on a roller coaster. I suspect one downside to offering this feature-packed wonderful product is that it is complicated to use, at least at the beginning. Thank you for being here. I will probably need a lot of help if I do not experience an epiphany or two or three.... Thanks again for the help and for the welcome. |
| Bad_Mister
Total Posts: 36620
Joined 07-30-2002 status: Moderator |
Your welcome. Let me give you a little background… this is the 10th year of the Motif-family. the MOX6 and MOX8 are certainly family members. So it is what you call a mature product - with lots of users. It is a powerful tool. It does not do everything but it does have a HUGE ‘bang for the buck’ pedigree. This means there are as many possible features from the its bigger brothers, the Motif XS/XF, as we could fit in a product. If you owned the previous MO6 or MO8, the learning curve is cut almost completely because the fundamental concept is the same - the previous MO owner is only finding where things are located among the additions. Of course, if you are new to Yamaha products, that is completely different. If you are new to Synthesizers that is completely different yet again… so there are different levels and curves in the intuitive~difficult measuring line for each user. I am particularly conscious how intimidating seeing a power house product like this for the first time can be like. But much like anything, it becomes knowable and doable - my suggestion, put off whatever actual project you are thinking about doing and make a determination to learn the Basic Operations. I’ve helped hundreds of folks get started with learning this and if you are not concentrating on writing while learning, the learning part goes much quicker. So rather than sit there and write a brilliant musical part when learning how PATTERN mode works, just input some data, it matters not what. Play a C Major scale. It is more important to learn the concept of the product/object than it is to write a piece of music at this point. First learn how to input, playback, view and edit that C Major scale. Once you get this down, you will be better prepared to ‘find’ your way. Ultimately, you want to have that solid OVERVIEW of the product so you know which mode, which area is going to allow you to accomplish your idea. Context Sensitivity - is one important thing to know about. The options you are offered are based on the context of when you pressed that button. What you see under a button is directly affected by the mode you are in when you pressed it. If you are in VOICE mode when you press EDIT, you are going to see Voice Edit parameters. If you are in SONG mode when press the EDIT button, what you will see is completely different. The context determines what you see and what is available.
A word on the manuals:
I have heard from some folks that they felt following these very basic things in the manual is silly> they are not, when you are asked to call up and playback the DEMO, or construct a Pattern by using the arpeggios, or whatever the tutorial is asking, it does have a purpose. But much like any basic show-and-tell teaching method, doing it/seeing it is worth thousands of words. The Reference manual is an online PDF, and is cross-reference document, this IS the future of all technical data in manuals. Because of the access available, it allows you to customize the learning process. You can get to any subject from virtually any page, if there is link to a place where the same information was covered previous, you can click on the link and go directly to the Page/Paragraph. This you will find absolutely invaluable when getting deeper and deeper into the potential of the object being discussed. Trust me there are too many JOBS and FUNCTIONS when you try to just read through them one after the other. You cannot grasp them just reading through the description. You cannot even understand why they are listed in the order they are listed in - if you are trying to learn what they all do. This is because it is the wrong way to encounter them. You want to encounter them in context of a workflow, then the purpose is more in focus, because you have a purpose. The cross-referenced nature of the REFERENCE Manual, makes it ideal because it is made to work as we learn, you virtually re-order it to match your learning experience. It is the ultimate LOOK-IT-UP tool. Once you get to a certain point you can look back and realize exactly why the JOBS are laid out as they are. And you are actually able to “know” where to look for a specific feature or function. That is when you have reached a level of mastery. When you know the CONCEPT of what is possible, then it is a matter of finding ‘where’ in the user interface it is located. Sometimes it will be exactly where you expect it to be. Sometimes it will not. It depends on how closely your workflow is to the basic concept. The architecture of the Motif-family sequencer does allow for some very unique and flexible work methods, and you are encouraged to stray from the basic concept and design your own workflow. There is not just one way to work it. You can come up with some very creative ideas about how to use it, for yourself. I talk to scores of people every week and I can say that a lot of people ignore the BASIC OPERATION portion of the Owner’s Manual because they think it TOO SIMPLE to bother with. But it is the opposite. First because it will introduce you some very basic concepts - just because it is the DEMO material they avoid it. Rather than utilize if for the only reason it is there (so you can learn from it). And of course, use this forum for specific questions - that is part of what you bought into! |
| yamamfs
Total Posts: 30
Joined 05-30-2011 status: Regular |
.
Thanks a million for taking so much time to write out a thorough response.
Are you speaking generally of the previous MO incarnations? The Owner’s Manual that comes as a printed book with the MOX does not have any tutorials. I will take the approach you have outlined as it is now clear to me that there is a design to all of this. First impression, it seemed disjointed… I will look at everything for this relationship you have described. As for the A/D setup with an instrument, I was able to play my electric guitar with a workable volume. Next I will attempt to apply some of the effects you described earlier. I have purchased a few effects boxes that are on their way. (An echo, a Leslie Speaker simulator and an amp modeler). Can I run these into the A/D inputs with the guitar? If so would I still use the mic setting as opposed to a line setting? I was following the Owner’s Manual steps under Connecting a Microphone or Audio Equipment on page 36. The manual (and you have also included these in your earlier description) referred to a couple of buttons in the “SF” row pushed after Utility and F1 and F3. When I pushed the “F” buttons it entered a new screen however nothing ever happened when I pushed any of the “SF” buttons (SF1 or SF6). I was able to make the adjustments anyway. I do not understand what happened with the “SF” steps. When these are pushed does something change behind the scenes only? I expected to get to a different screen. Thank you again. |
| Bad_Mister
Total Posts: 36620
Joined 07-30-2002 status: Moderator |
Oh, my… yes it does. They are the QUICK GUIDES - starting on page 22, outlined completely on page 23… They follow the BASIC OPERATION (the how to use the knobs, buttons, Data Wheel) section.
You already have access to several Delays (echo), a Rotary Speaker simulator, and an Amp Simulator among other INSERTION EFFECTS that can be applied to the A/D INPUT PART If you are using external effects prior to connecting to the A/D INPUT of your MOX, simply check the specs of your devices for the signal strength they are outputting. If a weak signal - set your MOX to MIC, if they are pre-amp’d signal (-10 or greater) set the parameter to LINE. Common sense will prevail here.
Not sure what you are seeing or not seeing. If the SF buttons have a function it will be written in the screen The bottom two lines of the screen relate (by physical positioning) to the two rows of buttons under the screen. So if a function is available for a SF button it will be on the next to the bottom line of the screen. If nothing appears no function is available. I gave you a method to apply the effects in each of the 3 major MODES: VOICE, PERFORMANCE, SEQUENCER (Song/PatternMixing). If you are in a particular mode when you hit the buttons expect the options available to be different. But if an option is available it will appear above the button in the screen. |
| yamamfs
Total Posts: 30
Joined 05-30-2011 status: Regular |
Are you speaking generally of the previous MO incarnations? The Owner’s Manual that comes as a printed book with the MOX does not have any tutorials. Our concepts of a tutorial seem to differ. I do not consider a quick guide to be a tutorial. A quick guide is just a guide to quickly get you going on a topic. A tutorial usually has a long list of benefits and uses a format that simulates a project or set of tasks that one would typically encounter when using the product. As a quick guide it would have made more sense to describe how to adjust an effect like reverb that applies to the A/D inputs instead of the vocoder effect. Everyone would benefit by knowing how to utilize the effects available to the A/D inputs while only a small percentage will be interested in the vocoder. Even if everyone did plan on using the vocoder, the other would be higher on the list of priorities in a sequential introduction. I am going to spend more time over the weekend looking through all of the documentation. I am very interested in all of the effects and am quite surprised to see a Rotary effect. I figured most of the phasing effects would be closer relatives of a chorus than they truly are. Again, THANK YOU! :-) |
| Bad_Mister
Total Posts: 36620
Joined 07-30-2002 status: Moderator |
Well, a Quick Guide falls into a category of items that would be considered Tutorials. At any rate - all of these Quick Guides are highly valuable for anyone first getting into a MOX6/MOX8. And yes, it does make some assumptions. Like encountering a REVERB SEND amount knob or parameter. It assumes that a musician would know how to add reverb with it. But, arguably, they may not know how to setup the Vocoder. To be fair, the OWNER’S MANUAL starts out with a look at the FRONT PANEL… and if you see a KNOB labeled “REV SEND”, I think it can be assumed that know what it does. And on Page 36 where it talks about “Connecting a microphone or audio equipment” it certainly takes you directly to the AD INPUT PART screen where you have the REVERB SEND parameter. It think as you spend more time with the documentation it will serve you well. I am speaking from a long experience with end users coming to synthesizers from all kinds of previous backgrounds. And all are served well by the Basic Operations and Quick Guides (many skip them because they think it will be too basic or too simple - they do so at their own peril). If you pass on it, the rest of the documentation may assume that you already know a particular basic concept… and everything after that is just going to confuse you. Take your time… as mentioned your particular learning journey (we see now) does not include a particular interest in the VOCODER, which is fine. Well, you have to allow that someone else’s very first thought when plugging in a microphone might be: “How do I get that darn VOCODER thing working?” You simply have to allow for that… instead of thinking that it should not be mentioned where or when it is… everyone’s journey is different. Anyway enjoy. If you have any questions - remember you can always post here. This is part of the Yamaha experience! |
| yamamfs
Total Posts: 30
Joined 05-30-2011 status: Regular |
I initially edited/updated this post but the date was from the original post so it would not flag anyone that it was revised. I lost the original post so I am now deleting this and starting a fresh post to follow. |
| yamamfs
Total Posts: 30
Joined 05-30-2011 status: Regular |
(Sorry, another long post. I used bold text to spotlight questions). It is getting clearer just how deep this system is, (great potential and capability). It will take a long time to learn the ins and outs of it. The price and advertising are deceiving. There is much more here than has been described in any of the videos and write-ups that are available presently. I spent this weekend and some of Monday going through the reference material. I would have written things differently if it were up to me. I stumbled through some sections that might have been preempted had they been written different (like for me ;-) ). There truly needs to be a Yamaha MOX Bible written by someone like Bert or Katsunori. That would be a popular item. Things like placing warnings before exercises instead of in notes of tiny text after the directions and telling you exactly what to look for when pushing buttons. Sometimes a button merely places a little dot next to a word in a screen. Initially I anticipated a different screen. This caused me to abort and repeat steps to see if I had done something wrong. The screen fonts on the LED are often illegible. The text resembles old dot matrix printing. You have to look very closely to see these little dots appearing to notice them. The visual options in the primitive screen are limited thus the layout can be obscure. You basically have size, alignment and reversed text to work with and it leaves a lot to be desired. Some things are best done on the fly. Is there an option to set the tempo of arpeggio or playing recordings while listening? I know you have the ability to input numbers in certain screens but that requires enough experience and knowledge to know what those numbers sound like. A large number of people that play music do not. They play by ear and feel. The interface seems to be technical to a fault at the expense of being intuitive and practical. When you follow along you are into the stages when you hit a wall and there is no backing out. The only thing to do is turn off the system and start over. The Exit button does not always work. Some screens respond to the [F1] button instead of the Exit. Undo would be nice. The Owner’s Manual requires that you read music notation to complete some exercises. This is a mistake. This product is targeting the general public in addition to musicians and even professional musicians do not all read music. They should have provided the name of each note and even tablature. Another glitch in the Owner’s Manual is found when creating a drum track. The instructions have you get so far then there is a note that states if you are using an MOX6 you need to adjust the keyboard using the Octave buttons. In addition to placing this after you are well into the step it should also tell you how much it needs to be adjusted so you are not forced to experiment. Not knowing insures that you will spend extra time and that you will have those notes/sounds recorded in the exercise you are involved in when you get to the note. This octave adjustment is not a variable. It is a consistent amount that represents the difference between the factory settings of the MOX8 (88 keys) vs. MOX6 (61 keys) and it should have been provided. I noticed that the voices playable by flipping through the banks do not match all of those that are pulled up when doing a Category Search. Case in point, there is a voice USR1 032 (B16) titled “Brothers and Sisters” that is accessible through the banks however when I pull up “Brothers and Sisters” through the Category Search the voice is not the same yet they share the same name and code. If one is jazzed up with layers and arpeggio (this could be the difference between the two versions) how do we pull up the specific one we want and distinguish between the two? It is also a major hindrance having to flip through all of the voices linearly. It is not enough to use the Shift button to skip and take greater steps. We ought to be able to punch in a specific number/code and pull up a voice like doing a search on Google. This design is very impractical. Getting back to the A/D inputs, at first the A/D inputs did not respond to effects. I was going by what I could find in the manuals. I was able to get things to work following your instructions posted earlier though. Granted, you may have just copy/pasted those instructions from the documentation however when looking for it myself it was not anywhere I expected it to be. I was only able to get one effect to work at a time though. Can you tell me how to get more than one to stick? I would like to have Delay and Chorus or Rotary sounds simultaneously. I am aware that there are combination sounds like a chorus with echo but I do not like them and want to marry a different chorus with a different echo of my choosing. I would also like to keep the A/D in this setup while also being able to freely pull up keyboard voices. Would you mind describing how this is done? It was a frustrating weekend that undid my excitement for my MOX. I need some wins to get through the false starts and tedious trial and error. I would like to dial in a decent guitar sound using delay and rotary or chorus and have that stick while being able to play some of the voices that provide something to play along with. This will help to balance the struggles of learning to use the MOX. I need more good experiences with the MOX under my belt so I don’t end up hating it.
I would like to keep my guitar plugged into the MOX. I would like to be able to walk up, turn on the MOX, select keyboard voices and play the guitar with the guitar setting already queued up without having to redesign the sound for the A/D inputs each time.
Thanks :-) |
| Bad_Mister
Total Posts: 36620
Joined 07-30-2002 status: Moderator |
Yes. There is only one clock in the MOX6/MOX8. Setting the Tempo for the Sequencer automatically sets the tempo for any arpeggios used in that mode.
If you are in VOICE or PERFORMANCE and want to change the tempo of the arpeggio:
This is a shortcut to the ARPEGGIO EDIT screen with TEMPO. (Owner’s Manual, page 59)
The VOICES provided by Yamaha are in the PRESET area… the USER area is made up of ‘placeholder’ Voices - they simply are Voices that are repeats of the VOICES found in the PRESET banks. (Owner’s Manual, page 24, see “USER BANKS") PRESET - burned-in permanently by Yamaha at the factory. You cannot overwrite these, you cannot lose them ever, you can edit them but you are meant to store your customizations to the USER Bank locations. (Owner’s Manual, page 24, see “PRESET BANKS") USER - area of the VOICE mode where the user can store their own customized Voices in memory. Category Search will (as explained in the manual) allow you to search for Voices by MAIN and SUB Categorization. (Owner’s Manual, page 25, see “Using Category Search) If you take the Full Concert Grand VOICE PRE1:001(A01) and edit so that it is a bit darker by changing the filters, and you decide to replace the VCM EQ with a COMPRESSOR, you would press [STORE] and target a USER bank area of the instrument.
When you want to “google” your Voice search, take out the MOX6/MOX8 EDITOR and try that. Much like when you want to use the real “Google”, you need a computer (or SmartPhone), if you want to “google” your VOICE search break out your computer. We’ll leave it there and let you discover this on your own. You have, as you admit, only just gotten started. We think you’ll like the Search you can do from computer :-)
Not at all. We cannot be certain what condition your MOX6/MOX8 is in. So we will begin by verifying your condition.
Since ultimately you want to work in VOICE mode, let’s start by going to [VOICE] mode
Here you can see the routing that you have selected. Both the A/D input and the internal PARTS are routed through all the effects INSERTION > SYSTEM > MASTER EFFECTS and are being sent to the main outputs (and will be routed via USB 1/2 to a computer, if and when, you are ready for that). Your A/D INPUT will be able to use not just the INSERTION EFFECT but the SYSTEM and MASTER Effects. The other configutations allow for different use cases of the MOX. For your request you want to use the single Stereo setup.
Press [F4] VCE A/D
[SF1] OUTPUT - these are main parameter setting channel for the A/D Input. VOLUME, PAN, you can setup for a mono or stereo in, you have access to the SYSTEM EFFECTS: REV Send, CHORUS Send. Control over the amount of Dry signal Level. [SF2] CONNECT - here you can select any two INSERTION EFFECTS for your AD channel. Initially the cursor is sitting on the “C” CATEGORY. You can use the DATA WHEEL or the INC/DEC buttons to view the various Categories. For example, one click and it recalls the REV (Reverb) Category and the first item in that category. you can move the cursor to the Right and view individual REVERB algorithms within the REV category. [SF3] and [SF4] - INS A / INS B will allow you to drop in and edit the selected INSERTION EFFECT. Be aware that there may be several PAGES of parameters depending on the effect type selected - use your RIGHT and LEFT cursor arrows when indicated in the screen.
Select the two Insertion Effects you want use for your A/D INPUT.
First, you want to setup your MOX to power on in VOICE mode. (Owner’s Manual, page 56, “Setting the default mode when turning the power on”; Reference Manual, page 143, “PowerOnMode")
Place your favorite sound in USR1: 001(A01)
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| Bad_Mister
Total Posts: 36620
Joined 07-30-2002 status: Moderator |
A couple of final comments: Learn to read music. The MOX (is not aimed at the general public, it is aimed at musicians and those who want to be musicians) we encourage all musicians, pro and amatuer alike, to learn to read music. It is a language like any other, if you are going to speak it, you should probably take the time to learn to read it as well. It never hurt anyone. Use the opportunity of running into it in the MOX manual to inspire you to learn to read. Imagine having to learn the anything (say the MOX with its manuals) without being able to read? Could you, yes. Would it be easier if you can read, yes, it would. According to you though, not much easier :-) but easier to be sure. The other things I could comment on, I will not. We’ll see how you change as you get deeper into it. If you get stuck, please do not hesitate to post back here. And thanks for highlighting the questions (although you missed one)… :) Enjoy. |
meatballfulton
 Total Posts: 3022
Joined 01-25-2005 status: Guru |
Just wanted to add my perspective. I am no lover of the Yamaha manuals. I owned a Motif ES for 6 years and bought an XF back in February. I learned most of what I know about both of them right here. As you stated the manuals tell you in depth what all the parameters are but there is a lack of tutorial information about to apply them. I owe a lot to not only Bad Mister but also veteran forum members like Wellie, Brad Weber and Papaphoenix. By the time I bought my ES it had been on the market over a year and there were quite a few application notes and Power User guides available here and that helped quite a bit. If you check the Support link at this site you will see relatively few Articles for MO-X at this point (only 3 as I write this) while there are about three dozen for the ES. I’m sure more material for the MO-X will be forthcoming very soon. I’d suggest you take your time and focus on learning one aspect of your MO-X at a time. I spent all my time learning the ES sequencer when I first got it because creating songs was my main goal. Until I was done with that I didn’t bother with learning about voice editing or sampling at all, I just used the presets. I was still learning new things about my ES in the last few months before I sold it, simply because I started using features I had never tried before in the 6 years I owned it. It’s a process, not a destination I guess. Hang in there, it’s worth it. |
| yamamfs
Total Posts: 30
Joined 05-30-2011 status: Regular |
Thank you Bad Mister and Meatballfulton. I am still wondering about this:
The response below does not explain why there are two versions using the same name and code. I was attempting to use Brothers and Sisters but I could not grab the version available through the banks. Why would Yamaha ship this with both a Preset and a User voice with the same names when they are different? If you have an MOX available to you can you pull both versions up to see what I am talking about?
As for this:
Maybe using Google was not the best analogy. When we use radios in our cars we turn dials and punch buttons and get the thing to respond with a coinciding LED display. Just imagine having to have a laptop hooked up to the radio in order to do this. It is nice that things can be done somewhere but I was referring to being able to punch in a code on the instrument for the purpose of trigger a condition. This is an example of where there is nothing intuitive about the current design. With regards to being required to read music, if a product is so advanced that it only speaks to trained musicians it seems pretty lowbrow for Yamaha to take money from anyone with less skill when they do not make this clear. I suggested at least labeling the notes. Sure it would be an enhancement to read music. I have this $1200 keyboard that I am not going to let sit for the next year while I learn to read music just so I can get through a few instructions in the owner’s manual so I’ll just make up my own melody. ;-) Thanks again. |
| Bad_Mister
Total Posts: 36620
Joined 07-30-2002 status: Moderator |
Never mind… :( |
| yamamfs
Total Posts: 30
Joined 05-30-2011 status: Regular |
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