The flash board support article talks in detail about how saving an All File with “without sample” for FL1 and FL2, then reloading it with the FL1 and FL2 load targets set to “none” can speed up the save and load process by avoiding the need to frequently save and load data from the slower flash memory. However, I can’t grasp the purpose of loading with a destination of, for example “FL1 without sample”.

Here is my understanding:

FL1 = FL1 With Sample

If the file contains waveforms for FL1, then they’re loaded in to FL1. If those waveforms were already loaded in to FL1, then duplicate waveforms are loaded.

FL1 = FL1 Without Sample

The article says that the waveform pointers are loaded, but not the sample data. To me, this seems that, if FL1 is empty, I’ll have a bunch of waveforms that don’t point to any samples, but, if the waveforms were already in FL1, I’ll have duplicate waveforms, but not duplicate samples. Why would I want that?

FL1 = None

Nothing is loaded in to FL1 at all. If my file contains voices, they expect the waveforms to already be present in FL1.

I can’t understand why “FL1 Without Sample” is useful. It seems like it either loads a bunch of empty waveforms, or else clutters up the memory with duplicate waveforms.

There must be a good use for this setting, though. What am I missing?

Thank you.

I’d love to know the answer to this as well, the “FL1 Without Sample” option seems pretty pointless and confusing. I always use “None” now and things work ok. “None” was added in the 1.12 update (from what I see from the release notes) so I guess the development team found problems with the “Without sample” option but left it in for completeness.

Having said that, there could well be a really good reason for it being there that users like me never come across.

Mike

Hi,

had a data crash on my XF7 2 weeks ago loosing all samples stored on FL1+FL2. Since I saved “without samples” I couldn´t restore properly (voices with samples didn´t “point” to the right waveforms after loading the “all"-file).

So the option save “with sample” in an “all"-file is the only way to restore everything, including data saved on flash.

I highly recommend to use this saving-method after loading new waveforms to flash.

Cheers from Germany, Michael

I agree ... first thing I do after loading any new library that stores things in Flash is save the whole lot. That way I can load any voice from the library and the samples will point to the right place. I always load voices with no samples/waveforms once I’ve got them in the flash tho

Mike

Having said that, there could well be a really good reason for it being there that users like me never come across.

Good, that is correct thinking. It is always best to think that there just might be a good reason for something that you don’t understand why it is there. Because when you are in the situation where this option applies, imagine if you were to discover that it did not exist, you would be screaming wildly about “how come those engineers didn’t think about me in my current situation”.

Let’s see if I can give you a situation where Loading the WAVEFORMS as in “FL1 without sample” is absolutely necessary:

You just got the gig backing up a well known singer on an international tour. They ask you your preferences (rider) along with the obligatory, no brown or blue M&M;’s in your dressing room, you specify a Motif XF be delivered at each venue. Not having to travel with your own personal XF means it can stay home and remain undamaged because cartage will deliver an XF from the local backline rental company. This means that all you need to do is take your USB drive (and a backup) and your trusty FL1024M board with you (along with your travel kit, Philips head screwdriver and rechargeable toothbrush)…

When you get to the first rehearsal there it is, the rental XF8, ready to go. You break out your trusty screwdriver, install the FL board in the instrument. This rental Motif XF sees your FLASH Boards (press [UTILITY] > [F6] FLASH) and it reports from the FREE SIZE amount that the correct amount of memory is “Used” on the board but it does not show any Waveforms on the Waveform List… here is a case where you will want to load the WAVEFORMS without the samples. (see screenshots below)

The WAVEFORM data includes “how” the Samples are structured and used. That is, how the samples are organized into KEY BANKS. This “pointer” data while small in comparison to the Sample data itself, can be restored and targeted to the FL slot containing the appropriate FL board. 

Therefore when you connect your USB drive and highlight your file, you don’t need to load samples, they are already installed on your FL board (who wants to wait 20 minutes or 30 minutes for all of that data to load… this is the reason you got the FL boards to avoid that long wait time).

You want to load your VOICES, PERFORMANCES, SONGS, PATTERNS, MASTER setups, etc., everything but not the samples… You want to load the WAVEFORM (pointers) to teach this Motif XF how you use the samples on the FL1024M.

You may notice at times when you ask the XF to ‘open’ a file that contains samples and waveform data, there may be a pause where it seems nothing is happening… can be 10-20 seconds depending on the size of the data being manipulated… the XF is ‘cataloging’ the data - remember it is responsible for ‘knowing’ where every VOICE is getting its samples, and often it needs to dynamically “re-point” - there is lots of number crunching taking place.
 
Highlight your ALL data file 
Set the FILE TYPE = ALL
Set LOAD options:
USR > USR
FL1 > FL1 without sample

The data will load, the WAVEFORM LIST will be populated with your WAVEFORMS and the VOICES will find their SAMPLES. You are very happy and the load time is just moments because there are no samples to load (only if you are using the 128MB of internal SDRAM (USR). 

If you only place your FLASH Board in the same Motif XF every time, you may never need this option… Although, I can think a situation where you might need it even if you never travel:

Say you remove your FL boards, for whatever reason, then you have cause to Factory Set your instrument, then you load in an old ALL data file (from before you ever owned an FL board) If you were then to reinsert your FL boards - you would see that they report that there is data on the FL board, but the WAVEFORM list will be completely empty. (see screenshots below).

This is a job for “Load without sample”. You definitely need to load a file that was saved while you owned the FL boards but there is no need to the samples.

There is a very (very) good reason for it to exist. For those that get out and travel, and want to take their custom sounds with them, placing their FL boards in different XF’s in each city - will utilize the “without sample” option quite often.
 
By the way- the articles points out:
“When you start to create your own customized Waveform and Sample setups on your FLASH Board(s) make sure you make a full backup of your customized Library. That is, SAVE as an ALL data file “with samples”. Keep that as an archive file. And anytime you change your Flash board installed Waveforms and Samples, make sure you create a new archive file.”

The archive file will allow you to recover if you, in the madness of touring - forget to remove your FL boards from the rental XF8 (you are either just plain out of luck, - or if you have an ‘archive file’ you can simply send the roadie to the local Yamaha dealer, have them purchase a replacement FL1024M - which you can now format and install your data (if you don’t keep that archive file, you can’t recover). 

For your everyday working files, you should streamline the data in that file. Saving “without samples” is for that everyday file situation.

Loading “without samples” is for when you transported your FL board to a Motif XF that recognizes that the FLASH contains data but does not see the WAVEFORMs (which is, of course, in your ALL, ALL VOICE, ALL SONG or ALL PATTERN file) You will want to load your data (but not your samples) - you do not want to load your samples because you brought your Philips head screwdriver (and FL boards) instead.

Hope that story helps.

Click thumbnail to see full-size image

Thanks, Bad Mister, for the detailed explanation!

If I understand you correctly, the key piece of information that I was missing was that the waveforms are stored in the Motif’s internal flash memory, and the flash boards only contain samples. For some reason, I thought that both the samples and waveforms were stored on the flash boards. I imagined that it would be possible to pop the board in to another Motif, and the waveforms would immediately be visible as part of the FL1 or FL2 waveform bank. I realize now that extra steps are required. Doesn’t seem difficult.

So, since an All File basically dumps all of the Motif’s built-in flash memory to a file, and the waveforms are stored in the internal flash memory, I will always save the waveforms when I save an all file. That’s why we have the option to include or exclude the actual samples, as, while saving the samples might be optional, saving the entire internal flash memory to an All File must always include the active/known waveforms. Hope that I have that right.

If I’m on the right track now, a few concerns come to mind.

I realize that the samples won’t be removed from the flash boards unless I delete them or format the boards. However, if I perform a factory reset, that initializes the internal flash memory on the Motif, so won’t I have samples on the boards, but no waveforms available to access those samples unless I can reload the needed waveforms from an All File?

Another situation that comes to mind is when I work with different All files. For example, on the XS, I’d use one All File when writing (lots of bread and butter voices for quick access, my in-progress song/pattern ideas, etc), and another for live performance. I’m still building out my full setup on the XF. If I make a writing and a performance All File, each with a different set of voices, I understood that the samples for both sets of voices would remain on the flash boards, and I’d only be able to play the voices that were actually part of the loaded All File. However, I thought that the waveforms would still be available. I expected that I’d still be able to access all of those existing samples if I wanted to use one in a voice (maybe I want to grab a snare or clap for a drum kit, and the sample is already on the flash board). If I understand you correctly, that isn’t possible. The samples for the voices in my writing All File will still be on the flash board. However, the waveforms for those voices are in the writing All File, and so, while the performance All File is loaded, then I don’t have the waveforms that reference the samples that are used by the writing All File.

Maybe there is a way in sample mode to build a new waveform from an existing sample in the flash memory. On the older Motifs, the only way that I knew to add a sample to a waveform’s keybank was by sampling or loading a file. At least on the XS and ES, I’m pretty sure that there wasn’t a way in the software to have samples exist/interact with them outside of the keybank of a waveform. Is this possible now on the XF?

If you never remove your FL boards, your Waveforms will remain in your Motif XF. I have not found a way to remove (purge) the WAVEFORM List (other than DELETE ALL or FORMAT) that does not involve extraordinary activity. The Waveform List is placed in a special location - it is actually quite difficult to lose it.

Only if you remove your boards, Factory Set your XF, and load other data into the Motif XF, then finally replace your FL boards will, you actually need to load again “without samples”. You have to do ALL OF THESE THINGS in order to lose the Waveform List.

I realize that the samples won’t be removed from the flash boards unless I delete them or format the boards. However, if I perform a factory reset, that initializes the internal flash memory on the Motif, so won’t I have samples on the boards, but no waveforms available to access those samples unless I can reload the needed waveforms from an All File?

No. This is not true. A Factory Set will not initialize the Waveform List. The place that stores the Waveform List is not lost easily - and certainly not lost due to a Factory Set.

Doing a simple Factory Set does not depopulate your Waveform List
Loading an older ALL data file does not depopulate your Waveform List.
As far as I know, you would have to do all of the above things, including Factory resetting the unit without the boards in the unit, and then loading another ALL data file, to purge the WAVEFORM List.

It is true, in fact, that you cannot overwrite it, at all. It will simply add new WAVEFORM data to the list - it has to work like this because what if, by some coincidence, two waveforms from two entirely different sources happen to have the same exact name? If the XF just refused to load it because the name was the same, that would not be good.

It loads it anyway and can inform you of all duplicate names - you can then listen, determine if it is, indeed, new unique data, or it is actually a redundant duplicate (sic). In which case you can have the XF remove all the duplicates and significantly “re-point” the data of all those VOICES that use that Waveform, automatically to the remaining waveform. That is what is really awesome.

However, it is imperative, upon the FLASH Board XF owner, to be vigilant when LOADING data to pay strict attention to the LOAD Options in the lower right corner of the FILE screen. The warning in the article about duplicate WAVEFORMS is there for a very good reason. Knowing when to use the FLASH option load ‘without sample’ and knowing when to use the FLASH option load ‘None’, is going to be very important.

Simple rules:
The WAVEFORM LIST is found [UTILITY] > [F6] FLASH

_ If your WAVEFORM LIST is empty (but you know your samples are installed on your FL boards) - use LOAD “FL(x) without sample”

_ If your WAVEFORM LIST is in tact - use the ‘None’ option. “None” meaning there is nothing you need to install to the Flash boards. (meaning you have not removed your boards, performed a factory reset, loaded other files, and then restored your boards) :D

When you place your FL512M or FL1024M in a ‘strange’ Motif XF, you will naturally need to load your VOICES (and the WAVEFORMS), but you do not need to load the samples. So LOAD “without samples”. The act of loading your file will populate this new unit’s with your Waveform list

If I make a writing and a performance All File, each with a different set of voices, I understood that the samples for both sets of voices would remain on the flash boards, and I’d only be able to play the voices that were actually part of the loaded All File. However, I thought that the waveforms would still be available. I expected that I’d still be able to access all of those existing samples if I wanted to use one in a voice (maybe I want to grab a snare or clap for a drum kit, and the sample is already on the flash board). If I understand you correctly, that isn’t possible.

Then you are not understanding me correctly. You are, again, not in a situation where you’ve purged your WAVEFORM list. If I did not tell you how it gets purged you might never have discovered it. Simply loading an older file does not overwrite (or purge) the Waveform List. Simply doing a Factory Set does not purge the Waveform List, either. You will simply have to learn by doing… but rest assured your fears are unfounded. It takes extraordinary measures to depopulate that list.

About creating an ALL WAVEFORM file
Creating an ALL WAVEFORM File will create a file with three folders in it:
USR
FL1
FL2

Please note: You have options to SAVE with or without samples.
If you SAVE the ALL WAVEFORM File “without sample” you will save the Waveform List (and the pointers). (Smaller file)
If you save the ALL WAVEFORM File “with sample” you will save the Waveform List, and all the sample data as well. (Potentially a very large file)

I recommend you keep what makes you feel safe. Certainly an ‘archive file’ ALL data file that is all your data (in case you lose your FL boards, you’d still have to get new boards but at least you will not have to redo all your work, as well).

Then keep the smaller files that you are going to load at gigs, jobs, and for everyday use. These do not have to contain the very large and slow sampled data.

If you are not removing your Flash boards on a regular basis, you do not have to worry about “Load without sample”. You only need it when the WAVEFORM LIST does not appear.
1) Because this is a new Motif XF - one to which you have had no previous contact
2) You have removed the boards, reset the XF, loaded other data, then replaced the boards… and now your Waveform list is purged.

Hope that covers it. Let us know.

Bad_Mister - 24 February 2011 09:58 AM

If you never remove your FL boards, your Waveforms will remain in your Motif XF.

Unfortunately I found a way to loose all waveforms stored on a Fl board.

If you load more than a maximum of 8192 Keybanks to one FL board the FL memory is deleted. I painfully experienced this phenomenon with my XF7 and I hope there will be an update to fix this bug very soon.

Cheers, Michael

Yikes!

Ahhhh yep, the “lets put the flash board in a new Motif” case didn’t occur to me, probably as I’m unlikely to hit that scenario. Obvious when you know about it :)

I’ve hit the > 8192 keybanks problem too, was be before I discovered the ‘None’ option and was always loading using ‘without samples’. This seemed to duplicate the waveforms/keybanks and I soon trashed the flash. A little warning would be nice, and a tweak to the software to stop it trashing things. Having said that, my flash and XF in general has been stable for well over a month now and and I’m swapping voice banks around quite a lot so looks like once you have it loaded correctly it works fine.

Mike