This question has been asked but the context was a little different so I thought I would ask it another way.  If I have an MR816csx and I want to listen to 2 Channel WDM audio without using Cubase this is not an issue. If I connect a Motif XF via FW16 is it possible to listen to 2 channels without Cubase using the WDM Routing through the MR816? There are times when there is no need to run Cubase as you just want to use the Motif without connecting the Motif’s digital or analog outputs directly to the MR816. I realize you can’t turn off the computer but do you have to have Cubase running to listen to 2 channels coming from the Motif XF FW through the MR816? Thanks, Brian

If I understand your question correctly, you want to use the MR816CSX as your basic mixer without Cubase. Yes, you can but you have to connect the audio outputs of the XF to the MR816CSX. Think of it like this: it is acting as a mixer so you need to connect whatever you wish to hear to the mixer. Setup its channels and route it to your speakers.

We assume your MR816CSX is connected to your monitor speakers. Use the MR EDITOR (which can be found by right clicking the YSFW Driver icon in your System Tray, or going to Programs > Steinberg MR EDITOR.

You can use it setup the MR816: Setup the analog inputs to which you connect the Motif XF.

No, I know I can use my MR as a basic mixer. What I want to do is route audio out of the FW16 to the PC then using the WDM driver route it through my MR to my attached speakers. Basically avoid using the Motif Outputs all together and for this configuration avoid using the DAW. Under the MR control panel there is WDM Audio Routing. I’m assuming that once the FW16 is installed there will be an option to select it. Couldn’t you select it as the Input and the MR as the Output and Output 2 channel of the FW back into the MR? This is purely a handy way to monitor the Motif without using up any of the MR analog inputs. Brian

bkvogel - 18 September 2010 11:09 PM

No, I know I can use my MR as a basic mixer. What I want to do is route audio out of the FW16 to the PC then using the WDM driver route it through my MR to my attached speakers. Basically avoid using the Motif Outputs all together and for this configuration avoid using the DAW. Under the MR control panel there is WDM Audio Routing. I’m assuming that once the FW16 is installed there will be an option to select it. Couldn’t you select it as the Input and the MR as the Output and Output 2 channel of the FW back into the MR? This is purely a handy way to monitor the Motif without using up any of the MR analog inputs. Brian

I think the answer is in Bad Mister’s post here.
My understanding is that the firewire devices like the FW16E and MR816 can talk digitally only with the computer directly. You couldn’t route the signal directly from one to the other. So the computer is required for digital communication. (Not counting the ADAT and S/PDIF ports on the MR816, I guess. I assume they could work if the MR816 were running standalone.)

So the digital signal comes into the computer via the ASIO driver. You’d need some application to read the data from one device and write it to the other. Normally Cubase does this by way of its monitoring function. But you should be able to do it with some other smaller program whose job is simply to pump the data from one device to the other. It would be smaller and would start up faster than Cubase. But I’m not sure if anyone has written such a program.

Jim

P.S. On a side note, I don’t think applying the term “peer-to-peer” to the current interfaces is quite right. That would imply all connected devices are peers and can fulfill the same roles. But this isn’t the case. Rather it should be called a master-slave (or client-server) connection because the computer is the master and the other devices are slaves. The devices like FW16E cannot be masters, AFAIK. The old mLAN was more of a peer-to-peer arrangement.

Hi Jim, thanks for the thread. I agree that from an ASIO perspective you would have to an application to route the monitoring but in this instance it’s from a WDM driver that I’m enquiring. I don’t have FW here to test but I’m assuming from the PDF’s that I could find that it uses the same WDM driver and CPL so effectly the MR and FW become one. I have found some discouraging information in the XF manual that states the audio from the FW can only be monitored from the XF’s own outputs. This leads me to believe they are in fact independent but again the manual makes no mention of the MR and FW together. Surely from an ASIO perspective the MR and FW become one in that you can monitor with in Cubase by using the outputs of the MR but again there is little information even on that. Either way it’s not looking to good for me. Brian

From the FW16 PDF:

7
Audio Routing (Windows only)
Click this to call up the WDM Audio Routing window. From
this window, you can determine the input/output jack used for
the WDM Audio driver. In each section, the upper box selects
the device (only when two or three devices compatible with
Yamaha Steinberg FW Driver are connected in daisy-chain
fashion) and the lower box selects the input or output jacks.

NOTE
• This parameter specifies which jacks accept the input signals
sent to a computer and to which jacks the output signals
from the computer are sent. The input channels are
stereo channels. The output channels are six consecutive
channels from the stereo channels set in the output port settings.

Bump to the top cause I’m somebody who doesn’t hate the player, playa, or hate the game! :-) Brian

I don’t just want to say no it is not possible. I never (ever) use the WDM portion to do anything with signal, other than to play back. I’ve never used an WDM application to record anything from an external device - so for the answer we will have to wait.  I understand that there are WDM applications that can do something with incoming signal - I’ve never used them for anything. Not really sure I know what it is you wish to do (what is the game here?).

The MR816 can be configured and used without the computer (as the last configuration will persist, even if you do not power on the computer). You can certainly send audio from the Motif XF to the computer’s input via WDM, but we need to know what application you are going to use that uses the WDM driver to record or use that incoming signal.

Let us know so we can correctly pass on your question.

Just a thought ... what about developing a mixer/interface with a Firewire input that can actually take the audio and midi data in via firwire and send it through to the DAW ?
There is nothing like this on the market ... imagine being able to connect several devices via firewire and or USB to a mixer and have all the audio and midi data available ?

I realize this may sound like a strange configuration but it really isn’t. So bear with me and I’ll explain the method to my madness.  A little background is needed; I work in IT in a Fortune 200 company so I’m in front of a computer screen for most of the day (12+ Hours).  With that in mind you can appreciate immediacy and beauty of a dedicated workstation. Below is the current configuration, 1 scenario and some possible solution.  Brian

Configuration:
1.  Computer is up and running and connected to MR816csx via Fire wire.
2.  Motif XF is connected to the computer via FW16. There are no XF outputs connected other than the FW. After all that is what the FW16 is for.
3.  MR is connected to the monitors.
4.  ALL inputs are patched with other devices into the MR so there are no free inputs for the Motif XF analog or digital outputs. After all that is what the FW16 is for.

Scenarios 1:
I get home from work it’s been a long day in front of many displays and I really don’t want to look at another. This is a great time to do some sequencing using just the XF. After all it’s a workstation and that is what it’s designed for.

Problem:
I have no audio because there are no outputs coming from the XF to the MR other than the FW16.

Solution 1:
Fire up Cubase, load a template and monitor through Cubase using ASIO.

Outcome:
Perfect as that is the way it’s designed but I still have to mess with a computer just to monitor 2 stereo output of the XF and that seems like a little overkill.

Solution 2:
Unplug something from the MR and run some cables from the XF to it.

Outcome:
It works but it’s not very elegant. Why disconnect and reconnect, change some MR Mixer setting, etc. if you don’t have to?

Solution 3:
Buy a little mixer and create a sub mix to the MR.

Outcome:
Not really great option as who wants to dirty up the MR and XF single path. Plus there is added $$$.

Solution 4:
If possible, flip the WDM input to FW16 and start playing. After all I’m not ASIO recording all I’m doing is monitoring 2 outputs from the XF.

Outcome:
Perfect! No changing of cables, no additional mixers, $$$ and more importantly less time fussing with the computer. I’m in Motif XF joy!

Configuration:
1.  Computer is up and running and connected to MR816csx via Fire wire.
2.  Motif XF is connected to the computer via FW16. There are no XF outputs connected other than the FW. After all that is what the FW16 is for.
3.  MR is connected to the monitors.
4.  ALL inputs are patched with other devices into the MR so there are no free inputs for the Motif XF analog or digital outputs. After all that is what the FW16 is for.

We are going to assume you have the units connected in a daisy-chain - otherwise we have to totally question configuration step 2. (we disagree with the statement that is what FW16 is for… but that is not going to help you here). If the MR816 is connected to the computer via firewire, and is the device feeding the speakers, then your daisy-chain should be as follows:

Motif XF --> MR816CSX --> Computer

They both should not be connected directly to the computer independently. Your tabs should reflect:
GENERAL / MR816CSX / Motif XF / ABOUT

If a device is acting as a mixer (in this case the MR816CSX), you can only monitor devices connected to it (obviously). It is as simple and as complex as that. If all the gear was analog I think it would be very clear, but it is the virtual-ness of the daisy-chain that you are not understanding. The XF is not sending audio signal to the MR without first going through Cubse.

When CUBASE is in the link, you realize that you are monitoring the Motif XF through it (via the “Direct Monitoring” setting). The way the signal gets from the XF to the MR is via a through from Cubase.

So unless you have an analog connection via the 8 available analog inputs or a digital connection via S/PDIF you will not be able to monitor the XF. Otherwise, the Motif XF is not connected to the MR816, period. I’m pretty sure you understand this.

The Motif XF’s audio output arrives in the computer directly. And you are using the application, Cubase, to receive its audio input and you are routing through the application so it can be monitored via the MR816CSX. The setting that allows this to happen is found DEVICES > DEVICE SETUP > VST AUDIO SYSTEM > Yamaha Steinberg FW ASIO > Direct Monitoring

If the real issue is:
1) that after a long day you don’t want to look at another computer screen (again) and
2) given you truly need a second MR816 because you are out of inputs on the first one and
3) given that neither Yamaha, nor Steinberg wrote a separate Windows application that is ASIO 2.0 compatible that would provide a low latency solution to this Direct Monitoring situation

Direct Monitoring
If your audio hardware is ASIO 2.0 compatible (MR816), it may support ASIO Direct Monitoring. In this mode, the actual monitoring is done in the audio hardware, by sending the input signal back out again. However, monitoring is controlled from Cubase. This means that the audio hardware’s direct monitoring feature can be turned on or off automatically by Cubase, just as when using internal monitoring. This item is grayed-out if not available.

When using the MR816CSX with Cubase this option (DIRECT MONITORING) is normally checked.

The whole “DIRECT MONITORING” function that you setup in Cubase is so that you can monitor signals arriving in Cubase through the MR816 hardware.

In the meantime we suggest these possible solutions:
1) make the Motif XF the first device connected directly to the computer and to your speakers… such that your daisy-chain is as follows:

MR816 --> Motif XF --> Computer

You will need to use the “RESET DEVICE NUMBER” function on the YSFW Control Panel to reverse the units for the computer (the physical connection is one thing, the computer, remember sees them separately… by resetting the device number you are making one first.

Connect the MR816CSX’s analog outputs 1/2 to the A/D Inputs of the Motif XF (as the Motif XF is now acting as the mixer, yes you still need an analog connection - we assume the A/D INPUT is available). This will save you from having to purchase a second MR816CSX or using a separate mixer to increase the number of analog inputs to your MR.

It will also allow you to play music without turning on the computer (something we at Yamaha understand) - I think you can see how a software company always thinks computer first (lol).

2) Wait for a Windows application that can take advantage of the YSFW driver settings… And here I have to admit, since I never really explored this in serious way until now, such a thing may already exist and I just may not be aware of it (never needed to think about it). You may want to contact Steinberg directly and see if they have a clever solution (short of purchasing a second MR816, lol, they did provide for as many as three units that can be daisy-chained for when you are out of inputs).

You may want to check with Steinberg support directly as they may have a different answer for your dilemma (short of buying another MR).. let us know.

BM, thanks for the concise explanation of ASIO direct monitoring but with all due repsect I’m not talking about ASIO. I will post the question to Steinberg but I’m not holding my breathe on getting an answer. After all not all forums have a Bad_Mister. I totally understand your mastering of ASIO as it truely the PRO protocal so maybe that is where we are disconnecting. Since I don’t have a FW here and am only working off of the PDF and I’m making a few assumptions that may be inaccurite. Bellow are my assumptions. I’ve also included some screenshots. In these screenshot I am listening to a Phish CD I ripped using Mediaplayer through the MR to my Monitors. There is no ASIO or DAW involved in this process. I’ve also included screenshot of WDM Routing. Is someone happens to have both units please test it if you can. Brian

Assumption 1:
FW16 supports WDM using the same driver as the MR?

Assumption 2:
In WDM Routing there will be a drop down selection for Input / Output of both the FW and MR connected?

Assumption 3:
If you select FW16 as Input and MR as Output you can monitor the XF through WDM driver to the MR and to the attached monitors?

Assumption 4:
You will not beat me up for keeping this thread alive. :-)

WDM Screenshot.docx  (File Size: 596KB - Downloads: 433)

Pardon me for butting in. Someone official can correct me if I’m wrong. I don’t own any of the equipment in question. This is just what seems most likely to me.

I don’t think what you are suggesting will work. I think the word “Routing” in the WDM dialog may cause some confusion. If you add an FW16E, it will show up in the list, but I seriously doubt you could route the input to output. By “routing” I think they’re just referring to choosing which devices are used for the normal Windows audio. Since the FW driver handles up to three devices, you need to selected which device you want to output Windows audio to, and which device you input Windows audio from. But it won’t do the routing job of copying audio from the input to output. (Besides, how would you tell it you didn’t want it to do that?)

Drivers normally only provide a way to get data to and from hardware, and don’t presume to do much else. And they’re usually passive in that they don’t get any processor time unless some application calls one of their functions. So a driver wouldn’t have any processor time to continuously read data from the input and write it to the output.

Hopefully I understood what you’re saying this time. :-)

Jim

As I’ve said previously ...why not make a mixer that directly accepts firewire and USB instrument inputs ?
It makes sense to me.

I’ve posted the question on the Steinberg Forum. Below is a link for anyone who might be interested. Brian

http://forum.cubase.net/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=140634

drpopper1 - 22 September 2010 06:32 AM

As I’ve said previously ...why not make a mixer that directly accepts firewire and USB instrument inputs ?
It makes sense to me.

They used to have that. It was called mLan. It is dead.

As far as USB, current USB 2.0 would be hard to do because it needs drivers.

USB3 is supposed to be better in that regard…

DF