Yamaha_US - 02 September 2010 03:06 PM

etc

OK thanks but what I hear you saying is that about the only thing standard amongst all the FW variants is the wire itself.

I think to be useful and relevant the protocol needs to be standardized and widely adopted.

In lieu of that I’d take pairs of adat outs as an option..it could be a board..... I just want a universal standard and as you mention most yamaha products (aside from the motif) do support Adat as a universal standard.

It is certainly possible to build a board that had a pair of adat i/os (2in and 2 out for 16 ch) and sell it for XS and XF.

So please do!! :)
Funkster

Funkster - 02 September 2010 03:08 PM

In Regards to SPB:
More obfuscation.

I take it to mean that you havent found a SINGLE Mixer, for instance, made by a manufacturer other than Yamaha Steinberg, that you can stream audio from your Motif too?

That’s the bottom line. Your historical hokum is just that.

Stop blowing air and go post the shipping products that support Motif->Mixer or Motif->Interface over FW that arent made by Yamaha/Steinberg themselves.

If you can’t do that then man up and admit it. Stop blowing smoke hoping that noone notices that you can’t do it.

In other words, put up or shut up

Funkster

So you’re saying that you want Yamaha to make drivers to support every other manufacturer’s hardware.

Why can’t the other manufacturers make drivers that support the Yamaha hardware?

Why is this all Yamaha’s fault?

Why don’t you show me one firewire interface that IS open?

Actually, it’s okay don’t worry about it. The subject you’re complaining about doesn’t only apply to Yamaha hardware. it applies to every audio interface manufacturer in the world. I hope you’re posting your concern on every other manufacturer’s forum as well.

it’d only be fair.

No… I’m saying that I want either

1) The other manufacturers to support the yamaha protocol themselves or

2) For yamaha to stop making FW the only audio streaming multichannel out on the Motif

What does that mean? Since I’m sure you’ll try to take me out of context I’ll explain it.

I want the Yamaha digital multichannel outs on the Motif to have BROAD INDUSTRY SUPPORT. If the manufacturers aren’t supporting it (and they arent) then they should switch to something that DOES have broad support—like ADAT I/O.

As far as complaining about other manufacturers....

1) I’d be happy to complain to any synth manufacturer that also uses FW out as their only multichannel option. Are there any? Please let me know and I’d be happy to complain there

2) I have complained about propietary multi channel output formats before...Notably Kurzweil’s DMTi.  I did complain to them about it and on whatever Kurz forums were in effect at the time so there is no discrepenacy here in my loathing for propietary digital output formats.

Funkster

Funkster - 02 September 2010 03:48 PM

As far as complaining about other manufacturers....

1) I’d be happy to complain to any synth manufacturer that also uses FW out as their only multichannel option. Are there any? Please let me know and I’d be happy to complain there



Funkster

Korg M3 - six channel Firewire option board, only works with the M3

Roland Fantom G - No multi channel audio option

Kurzweil—No multi channel audio option

Motif XF/XS - 16 channel Firewire that can be used with up to three other devices including the N series mixer, Steinberg MR audio interfaces and Motif XS, XS rack or another Motif XF.

You may not like it , but it is the most advanced computer integration in it’s class.

Yamaha_US - 02 September 2010 04:08 PM

Korg M3 - six channel Firewire option board, only works with the M3

Roland Fantom G - No multi channel audio option

Kurzweil—No multi channel audio option

Motif XF/XS - 16 channel Firewire that can be used with up to three other devices including the N series mixer, Steinberg MR audio interfaces and Motif XS, XS rack or another Motif XF.

You may not like it , but it is the most advanced computer integration in it’s class.

As far as M3 goes, does it’s FW work with any mixers, like the one I had posted earlier? If not that seems complaint worthy.

Kurzweil—is pretty much dead and yes I think that their current prodcuts dont have anything but SPDIF…

It’s true that I don’t like it—is there anything better? Maybe not.

That is one reason I’m thinking about exiting the workstations altogether.

For isntance, even if I *did* have the FW, Cubase, all that, if I had song a which used 300MB of sounds and song b which used 500 MB of sounds, could I load it in the VSTi such that it would populate the Workstation with samples? I doubt it. I’d still have to manage that in the Motif itself, and with the limited user presets…

On the other hand, with VSTis (pure) like SampleTank, whatever, each song populates the samples and they load quickly (10 seconds).

So I may be past the workstation phase and really looking for a VSTi native thing that works well in real time as well.

Perhaps Yamaha should start working on a Software Only Arranger Workstation....certainly someone should be ...

Funkster

Politically incorrect dave here with an observation.

Really, with FireWire and streaming audio, you may really be gaining nothing with the possible exception of a little speed in workflow. Make that very little, in my experience.

I think the difference between FireWire transfer of audio and simple analog outs into a high-quality mixer with high quality converters is negligible to non-existent. There certainly is no time difference between recording from analog outs of the Motif or
from FireWire/digitally.

Frankly, the good old-fashioned old school analog outs to ins is actually less tedious and much easier to set up than any digital-to-digital recording setup, and is also much more reliable. It could be argued that it is faster to set up analog routings because you’re not concerned with drivers, handshaking, etc. You’re just plugging things in.

As for “workstation” VSTi’s (actually, they should be referred to as VI’s or Virtual Instruments, since VST is not the only format they are in - AU, TDM, and RTAS formats are also common for almost every VI) - there are already several out there, including Steinberg’s Halion Sonic. The Motif is not a VSTi, nor is it designed to be one. Yes, the Korg M3 comes with software which enables you to run it as a VSTi - in theory. In practice, that software is rather fussy, at this time, and doesn’t work with all hosts.

Here’s the question - can you get from “here” (idea) to “there” (finished recording of idea) with things as they are now? The answer is yes, absolutely. You don’t need the Motif to be a full-fledged VSTi with FW compatability for every host and every single operating system. You can produce music easily with the currently available tools, including the XF.

In other words, just because FireWire exists, doesn’t mean you have to use it. Seriously. Your listener has no way of telling what method you used to record your music, and doesn’t care.

DavePolich - 02 September 2010 05:45 PM

Here’s the question - can you get from “here” (idea) to “there” (finished recording of idea) with things as they are now? The answer is yes, absolutely. You don’t need the Motif to be a full-fledged VSTi with FW compatability for every host and every single operating system. You can produce music easily with the currently available tools, including the XF.

I can get some places the way they are now but I can’t get other places the way they are now.

For instance, if I have xspanded 1-3 loaded as normal (which I do), that takes all the ram and load time I can handle.

If I want to use my organ samples (150MB) I have to wipe out some of the xspanded sounds and then I have to choose, oh well, organs or horns, and then load timezzzzzzzzzzzz.

I’m also using SampleTank 2.5 to get from a to b, but I havent found any good horns for sampletank.

So.....I’m getting various places but not everywhere I want to go and am wondering what I need to do to make that happen in a productive and cost effective manner…

As far as analog outs—there are 4 on the motif; if I have dense tracks that I want to record each one on it’s own analog then I’d have to make several passes....

If I have to do 4 passes of a 15 minute song....zzzzzzz....

So it would be nice to have multiple outs (more than 4) and/or faster than real time rendering....(VI)

Funkster

“I can get some places the way they are now but I can’t get other places the way they are now.

For instance, if I have xspanded 1-3 loaded as normal (which I do), that takes all the ram and load time I can handle.

If I want to use my organ samples (150MB) I have to wipe out some of the xspanded sounds and then I have to choose, oh well, organs or horns, and then load timezzzzzzzzzzzz.
If I have to do 4 passes of a 15 minute song....zzzzzzz....”

Uh, that’s why the XF has Flash.

“So it would be nice to have multiple outs (more than 4) and/or faster than real time rendering....(VI)”

That’s why there is the 16 channel Firewire option that you have chosen not to use.

You are making a really case that we understand the work flow that people want and have provided solutions for them, but it’s up to you whether you choose to use them or not.

BTW, we agree that the VST editor for the XS and XF should be useable in VST2 hosts like Sonar or Reaper and have requested that Yamaha utilize the new Steinberg VST 3 SDK we described earlier to update the editors, but we haven’t received any firm answer yet from Japan.

I knew you would say that. ;)

Yes the XF has Flash, but it only has 1 more user area.

So, now I could load up to 4x as many samples as I have now with the XF, but it only has 25% more user storage.

So does it change anything really?

Not really—I’d be able to store the samples I have now, without load times, and it could now hold one more user bank so that the organs fit, but it still doesn’t solve that much the problem. Not enough to buy one.

Maybe if you could overwrite the factory presets that would be interesting.

Would be interesting to see what they say about VST2; is that the first time they’ve heard of this request?

Ultimately I think having ~1000 spaces for “user patches”....since the xspander patches arent really user patches they are just more presets....would really match up with the 2GB limit of the XF than say just 1 more user bank.

I think it’s a step in the right direction though..but I think the small incremental user bank increse hampers it.

Eg you’ll come out with XSPanded 4 soon. So the XSPanded alone will take up all 4 user banks let alone loading other sounds....

I think the XF definitely solves the “stage” problem but I’m not sure that it solves the “studio” problem....eg, that any song (in my daw) could use any sample that my motif could play and it would manage the samples in the motif whether its orchestral or big band or whatever the song of the moment is…

That’s where the VSTis really shine....on demand loading of samples...Maybe none of the hardware synths are going to do taht but, with the firewire or usb, certainly the transfer speed is there..(not too mention ethernet)

I think for stage sure it’s going to help—for the studio—for that $2000-$3000-$4000 depending on hardware...(with optional fw on both sides etc) I could buy a lot of VSTi...so that is what I just have to investigate at this stage I suppose.

Funkster

You can load 4 banks of 512 User Voices that use the 2GB of Flash samples in seconds and about the same amount of time it takes to load something into Sampletank.
Also every song can have Mix Voices so you can have as many Voices as you have songs.  If you use the VST editor these settings would be stored with the DAW project .

It sounds like your looking for reasons not to buy an XF which is fine , just keep on using and enjoying your XS.

Yamaha_US - 02 September 2010 09:22 PM

You can load 4 banks of 512 User Voices that use the 2GB of Flash samples in seconds and about the same amount of time it takes to load something into Sampletank.
Also every song can have Mix Voices so you can have as many Voices as you have songs.  If you use the VST editor these settings would be stored with the DAW project .

It sounds like your looking for reasons not to buy an XF which is fine , just keep on using and enjoying your XS.

Maybe—at this point I’d settle for a way to type on my PC and have it type into the XS so I dont have to have two keyboards (one for my pc and one plugged into my xs).

I’d be more willing to spring for an XF if it had more features such as easier to access and program arps....To set up a new arp perf I have to go to 5x arps and 4x voices and scroll thru thousands of arps to set up a new perf ...

It would be nice if there was a quick way to initialize and browse arps so it automatically assigned the same stylistic bass and guitar as chosen drum arp..for instance...(nothing worse than listening to a bunch of drum fills while scrolling).

I don’t think I’d upgrade just to get more sounds....I’d upgrade for a lot more features.....for more sounds I think VSTi is the direction I’m heading as far as studio projects…

Otherwise I’d always have to have my Motif glued to my projects and could only work on them where the Motif was located, whereas VSTi I could work on them anywhere..and of course more flexible audio routing on the VSTi which was sort of my original complaint in this thread.

I really think a VSTi that was a motif (sound engine at least and sounds) that DIDNT require the physical Motif would be a VERY nice thing. The virtual motif. Sell it for $700 I’m sure people would pay…

That way I could play the real motif for low latency, and then my projects would just the 100% pure software one and could go anywhere..

I have to imagine some manufacturers are going to start doing pure software versions of their hardware, it’s just a matter of time the way things are headed..
Funkster

Maybe—at this point I’d settle for a way to type on my PC and have it type into the XS so I dont have to have two keyboards (one for my pc and one plugged into my xs).

Use the QWERTY keyboard that is plugged into your PC, you can type and name things from your PC.

Remember the EDITOR is bi-directional and simultaneous...so when you name something in the EDITOR (while you are ONLINE) it is naming it in the hardware.

I’d be more willing to spring for an XF if it had more features such as easier to access and program arps....To set up a new arp perf I have to go to 5x arps and 4x voices and scroll thru thousands of arps to set up a new perf ...

Oh, by the way, there is a new SEARCH function for Waveforms and Arpeggios.

It would be nice if there was a quick way to initialize and browse arps so it automatically assigned the same stylistic bass and guitar as chosen drum arp..for instance...(nothing worse than listening to a bunch of drum fills while scrolling).

Really! As mentioned there is a new SEARCH function - so don’t hate it before you have even tried it (that is just silly). And you will have to listen to the arpeggio - Yamaha is not going to write the entire song for you. I can think of one thing “worse than listening to a bunch of drum fills...” how about writing them yourself. Yikes, again. If they automatically assigned the same stylistic bass and guitar as the chosen drum arp - we make that product, it is called a “Tyros” (an Arranger Workstation) and those are called STYLES. The mixing and matching of the arpeggio patterns is one of the reasons they are listed as they are.

I really think a VSTi that was a motif (sound engine at least and sounds) that DIDNT require the physical Motif would be a VERY nice thing. The virtual motif. Sell it for $700 I’m sure people would pay…

I’m sure it would be ‘cracked’ and available for download in a week (LOL). But you should check out HALionONE (it came free with Cubase AI) - it is not a Motif XF but you can at least say you are using the some of the same waveforms.

I have to imagine some manufacturers are going to start doing pure software versions of their hardware, it’s just a matter of time the way things are headed..

Perhaps not. Someone should do an anonymous poll to see how many illegal versions of softsynths are out there versus those that were purchased. Now don’t take offense, I’m not accusing you or any one in particular. But in really, things may not go that way after all. We’ll just have to wait and see. In the meantime you still have to have an instrument to play.

So is the search function available for XS in an update?

I still think filling in guitar/bass styles makes sense…

As far as warez I’m all too familair with warez. My plugins were warezed and all it cost me was thousands of dollars.

Bottom line is, some people are paying for softsynths and some people are making money.

BFD seems to be doing pretty well last time I checked, as are most NI products.

To sell softsynths—you have to do one thing. Be in stores. People in stores with their wallet are not at that moment downloading things off the internet.

Yamaha has a huge leg up already in that area—they are already in stores, compared to some internet only shop.

At a certain point, companies are going to have to do softsynths—or cede all the business to NI et al.

I recall that both Yamaha and Roland had softsynth GM modules, so it has happened with yamaha already. Dunno if they still sell it or not.

If you’re that worried about warez they have this thing called a dongle ya know.....Or Steinberg key or whatever.

As far as not hear the drum filles—it’s not silly. Why can’t I just set it so I only hear the mains and not the fills and IA? I think it would make auditionign them faster…

Record them myself? You betcha! That’s what my midi triggers are for...(my neighbors love my drum triggers....)

It’d be also nice to browse for bass arps that do more than play one note at the beginning of a bar or 1 note over and over...I dunno how many of those there are compared to the walking bass types but it seems like a staggering amount..I’ve almost given up on bass arps and am thinking of just buying a bass.

But some of the arps are definitely cool and on a good day it can be highly productive.

Funkster

Funkster, seems to me you have a way of working which makes things more
difficult than they need to be. You must be trying to run everything in a
DAW project without committing anything to audio.

Call up your drumkit, program the parts, record each drumkit piece as a
separate audio track, keep the MIDI if you want to change the sounds later. Do this for all the parts in your arrangement. In fact, I don’t even understand why you want a VSTi version of the Motif. There would be
no difference between a hardware Motif routed into your audio interface,
or a VSTi. It’s the same thing, in different physical locations. It takes exactly the same amount of time to program and record a part on either
hardware or software. To argue that hardware should be software reminds
me of the old rocker argument that “everything needs to be louder than
everything else”.

I worked on a couple of albums with a major artist last year and the
Motif XS was used extensively during that recording, and the whole time
it was just routed analog into the Neve console. We also used Pro Tools
virtual instruments and all those parts were rendered as audio as soon
as they were decided upon. Myself, I’ve never recorded anything digitally,
everything is routed analog, and I’ll go so far to say that I can probably complete a track from idea to finished faster than most people.

The bottom line would be the supposed advantage in sonic quality with
recording audio digitally from a FireWire connection. Even there, I’ll
wager that if you recorded the same part from the Motif, one via analog
outputs into high quality converters and one direct from the FireWire output, and then put those two tracks up in a blind test, most people
could not tell the difference...and furthermore, if you sneaked the
level of the “analog” recorded track up a bit, people would pick that one as having been recorded digitally, because it sounded better (the human ear perceives “louder” as “better” every time).

I guess I just don’t get this obsession with running things with FireWire.
You still haven’t given a compelling reason why it’s preventing you from
recording an album.

I didn’t say it had to be firewire....

Yes I prefer to keep things as midi so that i can change sounds later/etc not commit to everything as audio, is that that hard to understand?

Sure when someone is putting together a song and recording it as audio they might be committing to certin sounds earlier in the process but as I add more tracks to a project, I may want to change out the core sound (drums, bass etc) to ones with more or less cut, etc...versus merely eqing them etc.

My thesis re Firewire is that, fewer and fewer computers are shipping with Firewire, why have Yamaha hang their hat on firewire?

Hang the hat on USB2 is what I’m saying here… Sure, for big studios, recording at 192khz, sure, it’s much easier to just do analog of everything versus dealing digital.

For smaller project studios, having a single cable that does everything (and hooks up to a netbook/notebook) is convenient and cost effective versus a sea of cables and channels.

On the Motif that single cable that does everythign is Firewire. On my guitar box, that single cable that does evyerhing is USB. Guess which I think is more productive and practical?

You know the original Kurzweils used Floppies and SCSIs. Now they use some form of flash drive (probably SD).

Times change. You could say, “oh, I don’t see how that SCSI is keeping you from making music”.... When no computers ship with SCSI anymore (not even Macs).

The times they are a changin’ in regards to FW as well....sad devotion to an ancient interface hasn’t conjured up the data tapes yet! :)

Also I’m an “And” guy not an “Or” guy. I think device or whatever should do this and that. Not this or that. So do FW and USB that’s my take and everyone can roll in the jello.

Funkster