It’s well known around here that I abhor Yamahas propietary (and high cost) FW solution.

But there is another reason to hate it.

Most laptops no longer come with FW.

Laptops/netbooks are great for musicians and most only support USB.

Yamaha COULD do everything that they do with Firewire over USB 2.0 but the don’t.

Yamaha COULD load akai samples but they dont (afaik).

The VSTi COULD Be compatible with vst 2.x, but it isn’t.

So here, with yamaha to stream across 4+ chans you need:

1) Proprietary FW card for the Motif

2) Macintosh laptop

3) Cubase **—It has been reported that one or two non cubase hosts now support VST3....but nowhere near the majority

If you use anything else, you lose out on functionality and are effectively punished.

I think this is the opposite of an (INDUSTRY standards approach and is just expensive, and annoying, vendor lockin.

I don’t want my synth telling me what computer and daw I have to use.

Is anyone else tired of this and who here supports using more broadly available standards?

Funkster

NOTE --- BY “INDUSTRY STANDARDS” I MEAN BROAD INDUSTRY ADOPTION—LIKE USB and VST2—NOT WHETHER IT IS TECHNICALLY A CLOSED OR OPEN STANDARD BUT MORE IN TERMS IS THE RETAIL MARKETPLACE CLOSED OR OPEN IN TERMS OF CHOICES OF BROADLY AVAILABLE DEVICES AND SOFTWARE FROM MANUFACTURERS

Now that YUS has recogized my edits to the subject there is no need to caps it
F

The XS and XF can be integrated with any DAW system that has a compliant firewire connector or card and is running any multi track recording application besides Protools. You either don’t own the board and are assuming your statements or you havent been asking the right questions to get you system running.

SuperParty: I don’t think you read my post

1) I said that most laptops don’t support firewire; most don’t even come with cardbus adaptors to add one either. Nothing you said in your post negates that

2) It’s true that you *CAN* use FW in any DAW (assuming hardware support), BUT you can ONLY use the Motif as a VSTi in CUBASE.

Nothing in your post seems to negate that.

So the points I was making (lack of FW support on laptops aside from Macs, lack of VST3 support in DAWs except Cubase, lack of Akai import, etc) are all true and have nothing to do with me not owning this or that gear.

Firewire used to be somewhat popular in the DV era, but now that all the camcorders record to flash, they don’t even have FW outputs, so there is no reason to have FW input on the computer. Heck even SONY is dropping FW on their laptops etc.

USB2 is the new FW.

So the motif supports stuff that is either dying (FW) or stillborn (VST3).

Funkster

well i’ll be a little more detailed then:

Firewire issue:

Firewire still boasts the flexibility that USB does not. The ieee1394 protocol allows you to daisy chain to expand hardware running off a single driver. as well, Yamaha had an invested technology with MLAN which uses the firewire protocol. You have to remember that the XS supported both MLAN and AI when it was released. at the tme firewire was the fastest interconnect protocol and still widely used. You cannot daisy chain USB 2.0 and there is still yet to be a 2.0 interface that supports 16x6 bussing for under $279(the price for FW16e). USB is nice but what about the guy that wants to record additional audio sources? Motif XS and MR is a very good solution since they both run off the same drivers. Many other manufacturers are doing this, including MOTU and Presonus. There is a reason for this. If you remove firewire, you remove the expandability.

VST issue:

VST3 support is a Steinberg technology. Other applications not supporting VST3 has nothing to do with Yamaha or Steinberg’s choice. It has to do with the other manufacturers. If, for example, Cakewalk decided to upgrade their VST support to VST3, then you’d be able to use the Editor within application like Sonar. Despite that, the only real difference between the VST editor and the standalone editor is the routing. You can still run the Editor in standalone mode along side any application and still have your audio routing options. The only difference is that you will need an accompanying audio track for you midi track for monitoring purposes. This procedure is almost universal for all other hardware synth not boasting a built in interface. thee way that you run the editor’s within your DAW setup is still left up to user preferences. You’re not actually losing anything by not using Cubase.

Akai sample issue:

This is true, but that’s why companies like Chicken Systems, MOTU and NI have software solutions for this problem. You have to understand that for every person here bitching about not being able to load akai samples, there’s a guy on the akai forum bitching about not being able to load Yamaha samples.

If we’re going to debate open standards and open protocols we should consider moving our debate to the Digidesign forums. in the meantime, i have mixes to finish up on my HD system ;)

1) Regarding FW and daisy chaining, you can only daisy chain to yamaha/steinberg devices (propietary). How does that negate my propietary argument?  Most FW interfaces that you claim “support FW” or “chaining” won’t chain the Motif format of FW aside from Steinberg/Yamaha interfaces and Mixers (proprietary). At least that was true last time I checked several months ago. Which would be the XS format of FW. Now they have yet another format I hear. Wake me when there is wide vendor support for that in mixers/interfaces?

I’d take ADAT I/O or pairs of ADAT I/O instead of FW any day and just run the midi over USB.

If you want to have the OPTION of daisy chaining fw—then use the FW OPTION. But the Base USB (which should be USB2.0 and not 1.1 like it is) SHOULD stream multiple chans of audio and it doesn’t.

I think out of the box it should stream audio over USB2 (universal standard hardware) and for options you can have FW and ADAT I/O.

2) VST3 is a steinberg technology and so is VST2.

VST2 has almost universal support. VST3 is only supported by Cubase.

They made it a VST3 (imho) just to force people to use Cubase to use it.

If they had made it a VST2, any Host could use it.

So how is this not being proprietary as well, be it by design or happenstance?

You’re saying “IF” Sonar updates to VST3—but they won’t. Because no 3rd party vendors (other than Steinberg and possibly Waves, who also sells VST2 versions) are releasing VST3s. Because if they did they would only work on Cubase, and so, therefore, since there are so few VST3 in the marketplace and it adds very little for most plugin vendors, most DAWs will probably never support VST3.

VST3 can (and probably will) wind up like SACD or HD-DVD; an interesting format that died because of lack of support and content.

RE not losing anything by not using it as a VSTi, that isn’t correct. You’re losing the ability to load up the state of the machine based on the VST3 state stored as part of the track as the VSTi.

So you have to use it like an old hardware device and deal with mapping PC changes etc....It’s not nearly as integrated as a VST3 and in fact it makes it like a retro hardware synth.....heck I could even use Midi cables yum.

While on that subject—try to use it that way-- you can’t even generate a PATCH LIST to load into a DAW/Midi workstation to even know what PATCH you’re on without using it as a VST3.

If you know a way to dump out an abitrary (user) set of patches, into a text file, or .INS file or any other format, please let me know how! I haven’t found a way to do even this basic task with the Yamaha software or even third party.

3) Chickensys etc—I’ve tried some and results are mixed at best.  Almost every hardware sampler loads AKAI natively. I think Yamaha should settle on a few formats they import from; it doesn’t have to be every format but they should import from a few well known formats.

Funkster

Just a point of order:
You can use the Motif XS Editor VST in any DAW that supports the VST3 protocol, this is not just Cubase any more (it is of course, Cubase, this makes sense as Yamaha owns Steinberg, and Steinberg invented VST protocols in the first place)

PreSonus Studio One can run VST3 compatible VSTi’s and someone here on Motifator reported they have it running in Ableton LIVE. (althought I have not seen that myself)

Agreed, currently only a few DAWs are up to the new protocol (VST3) those DAW that are moving forward will have compatibility with VST3 plugins - if your favorite DAW does not yet support it, perhaps in the future it will.

Most laptops cannot run music software. Most laptops are designed for business (not music). In general, you should buy a laptop that can run music and if you want to use FW connectivity - get one that can use FW… it is just that simple. “Most” - most animals cannot fly… if you want to send your message air mail, pick one that has wings :)

it is often difficult to see the real advantage of new protocol’s specification. But if you can read between the lines you can really see the future that is coming - VST3 protocol certainly opens the doors to future improvements for us all.

VST3 info

To be against it for no real good reason is a bit difficult to understand. Like those who were against the steam engine or the horseless carriage… what was their reasoning?

We find the post about Yamaha and open standards quite funny.

Point 1

The Audio Midi 831 standard on which all Firewire audio and MIDI implementations are based was developed by Yamaha and taken to the 1394 trade association , the open standards body for Firewire for ratification so all companies could develop Firewire products. 
So all products that use Firewire for audio and MIDI are available because Yamaha supports open standards.

We are always looking at different transports for audio and MIDI.  These include USB and Ethernet.
In fact, Yamaha and Steinberg currently make products that support many different protocols including Firewire, USB and Ethernet. 

Point 2

All VST instrument exist because Steinberg releases an SDK for the open standard VST technology.
Companies choose to support VST2 or VST3. In fact the newest VST3 SDK includes documentation for wrappers for both VST2 and AU so that VST3 applications can work in hosts that only support VST2 or AU.
You can find information about the newest VST 3 SDK on Steinberg’s website. You can fill out an application and get the SDK because it is an open standard. 

Point 3
All ASIO devices on the market exist because Steinberg releases an SDK for ASIO so other companies can develop ASIO compatible devices.  So all ASIO devices on the market exist because Yamaha who owns Steinberg supports open technology standards.

Point 4

Akai sample format was not an open standard, it is a proprietary format thatbmust be reverse engineered to support. This is simply not relevant to a discussion about open standards. 

From a strictly business point of view, perhaps Yamaha and Steinberg should stop supporting open standards, stop enabling competitors with ASIO and VST and take a proprietary approach as Digidesign does.  However we believe that open standards are good for the overall industry.

Sorry, but w think when you really look at what Yamaha does, you can see that we are probably the most important supporter of open technology standards in the MI industry.

When you say “most laptops” cannot run music software—sorry that’s just not true.

Did you tell that to George Duke, who I saw using a laptop on stage (with an ES btw)?

What you’re saying is noone did audio on computers 10 years ago.

They did. I did.

A netbook smokes the performance of the old P100 I used to record on.

I can and do record on a netbook, and I’ll be getting a better notebook later since this works so well.

With a netbook/notebook you can bring your computer to the music.

Heck with this netbook I could easily take it to a gig and record 8 chans of audio, no problemo.

Am I going to get 48 tracks out of it? Probably not. Do I need 48 tracks? Definitely not.

Netbooks, iPads, Notebooks, that’s where all the purchases are today and the CPU power is there especially in a full sized notebook and for many applications, even on a netbook.

Funkster

Yamaha_US - 02 September 2010 06:24 PM

We find the post about Yamaha and open standards quite funny.

Point 1

The Audio Midi 831 standard on which all Firewire audio and MIDI implementations are based was developed by Yamaha and taken to the 1394 trade association , the open standards body for Firewire for ratification so all companies could develop Firewire products. 
So all products that use Firewire for audio and MIDI are available because Yamaha supports open standards.

We are always looking at different transports for audio and MIDI.  These include USB and Ethernet.
In fact, Yamaha and Steinberg currently make products that support many different protocols including Firewire, USB and Ethernet. 

OK well

A) Define “All products that use Firewire for audio and Midi are available...” There don’t seem to be too many that arent made by Yamaha and Steinberg...which are they?

B) So when will you finally offer USB or ADAT as options for streaming audio to and from the MOTIF?

Yamaha_US - 02 September 2010 06:24 PM

Point 4

From a strictly business point of view, perhaps Yamaha and Steinberg should stop supporting open standards, stop enabling competitors with ASIO and VST and take a proprietary approach as Digidesign does.  However we believe that open standards are good for the overall industry.

Sorry, but w think when you really look at what Yamaha does, you can see that we are probably the most important supporter of open technology standards in the MI industry.

Point 2

Happened prior to Yamaha purchasing Steinberg. Cat was out of bag. Does not demonstrate that Yamaha themselves would have done that.

Point 3

Happened prior to Yamaha purchasing Steinberg. Cat was out of bag. Does not demonstrate that Yamaha themselves would have done that.

Why didn’t Yamaha just maket the VSTi a VST2 instead of VST3 since VST2 is more widely supported?

Point 4: I just don’t see the practical effect of the FW and the VST3 is to make it easy or productive to incorporate into a variety of possible musical situations.

Whether intentional or not, I’m saying that you end up having to basically use Yamaha/Steinberg everything to get the full monty out of it.

Trust me, if you guys put adat outs on there I’d take it as a sign of open standards and working cooperatively with what’s in the studio. Please let me know when I can order one for my XS.

Funkster

Funkster - 02 September 2010 06:37 PM

A) Define “All products that use Firewire for audio and Midi are available...” There don’t seem to be too many that arent made by Yamaha and Steinberg...which are they?

There’s A LOT. Yamaha’s efforts to open source the 1394 protocol for audio have supplied all the following companies, plus more, to have working technology in their products for the professional and semi professional recording market.

M-Audio
Digidesign
Tascam
Behringer
MOTU
Focusrite
Presonus
Echo
TC Electronic
Mackie
Apogee
Lexicon
Alesis
RME
Allen & Heath
Roland
LYNX

It’s a pretty interesting history. It’s nice to know where the technology for all those devices come from as well, just for FYI purposes. You can check out a brief history here:

http://www.mlancentral.com/mlan_info/mlan_ppf.php

back to work…

SuperPartyRobot - 02 September 2010 07:19 PM

Funkster - 02 September 2010 06:37 PM

A) Define “All products that use Firewire for audio and Midi are available...” There don’t seem to be too many that arent made by Yamaha and Steinberg...which are they?

There’s A LOT. Yamaha’s efforts to open source the 1394 protocol for audio have supplied all the following companies, plus more, to have working technology in their products for the professional and semi professional recording market.

M-Audio
Digidesign
Tascam
Behringer
MOTU
Focusrite
Presonus
Echo
TC Electronic
Mackie
Apogee
Lexicon
Alesis
RME
Allen & Heath
Roland
LYNX

It’s a pretty interesting history. It’s nice to know where the technology for all those devices come from as well, just for FYI purposes. You can check out a brief history here:

http://www.mlancentral.com/mlan_info/mlan_ppf.php

back to work…

*YAWN*

That’s a lot of people that LICENSED it. I’m talking about shipping devices.

Show me links to CURRENTLY SHIPPING DEVICES that aren’t made by steinberg or yamaha.

In other circles what you are talking about is a “paper airplane”—I’m talking about shipping products not signed documents.

Does it work with this as an example? http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/StudioLive16/

Or does presonus not support the “Yamaberg” FW Protocol over that firewire connection?

My understanding is that just because the mixer has a FW connector doesn’t mean that it supports the Yamaha FW Protocol, whatever variants there are and whatever they call it these days.

If I’m mistaken on that then feel free to show me the non steinberg/yamaha shipping devices that support it.

Funkster

Funkster - 02 September 2010 07:22 PM

*YAWN*

That’s a lot of people that LICENSED it. I’m talking about shipping devices.

Show me links to CURRENTLY SHIPPING DEVICES that aren’t made by steinberg or yamaha.

In other circles what you are talking about is a “paper airplane”—I’m talking about shipping products not signed documents.

Funkster

That’s kind of a strange argument. So because my M-audio won’t daisy chain to my Presonus or because they use different coded drivers that’s Yamaha’s fault?

NO current devices have cross manufacturer compatibility like Yamaha/Steinberg. Do you think Roland will open to a Steinberg driver? Absolutely not.

Do you think Yamaha/Steinberg Engineers have the time and resources to write code for other manufacturer’s products? That’s just silly. Even if they did, the other companies wouldn’t want them to. It means they lose the freedom to code for their products the way they want to. It would defeat the purpose of yamaha and the other contributing companies making the FW audio protocol open to begin with.

And even with ASIO, Steinberg is giving other companies footing to create stable drivers for their own hardware. That seems pretty open.

I really don’t know what your on about.

First you post a list of all these people who supposedly licensed the protocol, and THEN you think that steinberg should write the code for them??

Look—there aren’t any shipping products from the manufacturers listed that support the protocol.

That makes it a closed and proprietary protocol.

So why argue with me and obfuscate the obvious?

Either show me the shipping products that support it that aren’t made by yamaha steinberg, or admit it’s a propietary format by virtue of that fact.

It’s just that simple.

Funkster

Funkster - 02 September 2010 07:41 PM

I really don’t know what your on about.

First you post a list of all these people who supposedly licensed the protocol, and THEN you think that steinberg should write the code for them??

Look—there aren’t any shipping products from the manufacturers listed that support the protocol.

That makes it a closed and proprietary protocol.

So why argue with me and obfuscate the obvious?

Either show me the shipping products that support it that aren’t made by yamaha steinberg, or admit it’s a propietary format by virtue of that fact.

It’s just that simple.

Funkster

Actually what you don’t understand is that the protocol being used in all audio products that currently have firewire connectivity, is the protocol that Yamaha started out with. I’m not talking about MLAN, im talking about firewire being used for audio streaming. The reason why you even see devices with a firewire connector on it is because of the research and efforts set forth by Yamaha and a number of related companies. So the fact is that every manufacturer in the list i posted above is using the 1394 protocol first created by Yamaha, respectively.

In a nutshell, Yamaha told the audio world “Look what we’ve done with 1394, here’s how we did it”. in turn, a number of companies used the open 1394 protocol for firewire to either create their own hardware and relative drivers, or use the existing Yamaha network protocol (MLAN). As time progressed it became more of a norm for companies to use the original open source to create their own drivers tailored to their own hardware.

These are the kind of facts and details that get lost. Every 1394 audio interface currently on the market today was birthed from Yamaha’s (and partner’s) 1394 audio interfacing protocol.

All Firewire devices that are on that list stream audio and MIDI . They all use the core streaming protocol that’s was standardized by the 1394 Trade Association based on Yamaha’s work That does not mean that they use the same driver and it also does not mean that they can connect to each other.  All these devices use proprietary drivers that are peer to peer-one device to one computer. That does not change the fact that Yamaha did the original work on the streaming protocol and gave it to the industry.

The Presonus device you mentioned uses the 831 AM protocol from the 1394 TA for streaming audio and MIDI via Firewire.  So that device uses the work that Yamaha standardized with the 1394 trade association. PreSonus provides a Presonus driver that only allows connection between one device and one computer.

The only protocol that allowed multiple devices from different companies to connect to each other was mLAN which was also an royalty free license and most of it was open standards that were standardized by AES, the MMA and other organizations.  You are confusing mLAN which was a networking protocol with the Firewire streaming protocol.  These are two completely different things. 

The cat was not out of the bag for VST3 or for the latest version of ASIO.  Yamaha and Steinberg could decide to make new technology proprietary any time something new was developed.  However we continue to support and develop new technologies and make them available as open standards.

Yamaha does support ADAT protocol (there are ADAT cards for our digital mixers).
However for the Motif a 16 channel audio and multi port MIDI solution that is a standard ASIO driver makes more sense than just 8 channels of audio over ADAT.

You are right about one thing and that is the fact that Firewire is found on less computers than in the past. As we said before we are always looking a new connectivity options for future products and certainly USB is among those options.

In Regards to SPB:
More obfuscation.

I take it to mean that you havent found a SINGLE Mixer, for instance, made by a manufacturer other than Yamaha Steinberg, that you can stream audio from your Motif too?

That’s the bottom line. Your historical hokum is just that.

Stop blowing air and go post the shipping products that support Motif->Mixer or Motif->Interface over FW that arent made by Yamaha/Steinberg themselves.

If you can’t do that then man up and admit it. Stop blowing smoke hoping that noone notices that you can’t do it.

In other words, put up or shut up

Funkster