Hi everybody

I own an XS8, which I often use also as master keyboard, of course
in MASTER mode, combining internal multitymbral mode (MIXING) with an external TONE GENERATOR (K2600). In this application of course I don’t play the SEQUENCER. It performs very good, but in my opinion (...to tell the truth it is sometimes cited in the forums...) it suffers three limitations:

1. no panel or soft buttons are available to mute the ZONEs: you have to do it in edit mode, which is uncomfortable and with little sense. Apparently the mute buttons only can mute the SEQ TRACKs playing. It would be nice if - by pressing say a key like performance control - the mute buttons were able to mute ZONEs in place of TRACKs.

2. A MIDI message for muting PARTs or ZONEs is missing, but would be very useful. It could be assigned to a FOOT SW or an AS SW. By now, the only thing one can do is using the trick of the ARP ON/OFF message to mute one PART, but again this is not the most appropriate way.

3. In the control set (perf/mixing mode), not all MIDI CC numbers can be assigned to every physical controller; for examples some controllers allow MIDI CC up to 95 or 100, but this is limitative if you are controlling external devices.

Now, my question is:

does the new XF improve these features?

or

is it possible to suggest some improvement to the next XF Operating System in order to remove above limitations?

Anybody can do anything, please?

Thank you

Max

1. no panel or soft buttons are available to mute the ZONEs: you have to do it in edit mode, which is uncomfortable and with little sense. Apparently the mute buttons only can mute the SEQ TRACKs playing. It would be nice if - by pressing say a key like performance control - the mute buttons were able to mute ZONEs in place of TRACKs.

As you may know, updates are planned and are constantly ongoing. This issue is being evaluated and is one reason you should always check in for updates to your Yamaha products. No word on exactly if or when but this particular issue is being studied.

2. A MIDI message for muting PARTs or ZONEs is missing, but would be very useful. It could be assigned to a FOOT SW or an AS SW. By now, the only thing one can do is using the trick of the ARP ON/OFF message to mute one PART, but again this is not the most appropriate way.

You are correct there is no official MIDI message for Mute, be it for PARTS or ZONES and you are correct it would be very useful - just how to figure a workaround is for the engineers to figure out. As to assigning it to a Foot Switch - it cannot be a Channel message because it has to affect the transmit function (not the receive function). We understand what you want - but MUTE in this case is you want to stop the ZONE from transmitting. It is being studied… stay tuned.

3. In the control set (perf/mixing mode), not all MIDI CC numbers can be assigned to every physical controller; for examples some controllers allow MIDI CC up to 95 or 100, but this is limitative if you are controlling external devices

If you are controlling external devices you should be using MASTER mode. If you are in PERFORMANCE or SONG/PATTERN Mixing mode you are controlling the internal Motif’s tone engine. The purpose of MASTER mode is to additionally control external devices. There you can assign the 8 Knobs and Sliders as you require for external devices.

Hope that helps.

Thanks, bad mister, for your quick and detailed answers ... as usual

I must apologize for having been not too clear, even though what you said
about future developments makes me feel better.

1. As for point 1), having panel switches to stop ZONE transmission in MASTER play mode instead of MASTER edit mode is exactly what I mean. OK

2. As for point 2) may be I used the Kurzweil terminology ... sorry. What I mean is a MIDI CC message that tells the motif tone generator to mute the PART either in PERF, PATTERN, SONG (MIXING) mode (I wrote ZONE, but meant PART in MIXING mode). For instance, in the CTRL ASSGN page we could assign message 101 = PART MUTE (the first available) to the foot switch, then in the RCV SWITCH page check the FOOT SW only for the PARTs to be muted. This should work for either PERF and MIXING, right?

3. As for point 3) I really said too little to be understood ... sorry again. The need for additional MIDI CC numbers in the CTRL ASS arises from the fact that in MASTER MODE I am able to control the local motif engine and a remote device at a time, by properly selecting the int/ext CHs on the TRANSMIT page. But how can I assign MIDI CC to the single controllers? I load a PERF/PATTERN/SONG on the MASTER and use its CTRL ASSGN page to assign the required MIDI functions to the controllers available. Then I can decide to which int/ext CHs I want to send such MIDI CC on the RCV SWITCH page for internal sounds and on the TX SWITCH page for external sounds. Of course this implies to work with combined MASTER and PERF/MIXING modes, since the configuration will be stored partly in the MASTER and partly in the PERF/MIXING program. The only limitation so far is that I cannot assign every number to the controllers on the CTRL ASSGN page.

Hope this can clarify.

So does it make sense to you?
If yes, do you think you can do anything to suggest the XF development team to implement such slight improvements in order to obtain a fully
functional master controller?

Thank you for your patience

Ciao from Italy

max

So does it make sense to you?

No not really. When you activate the MASTER ZONE SWITCH, you are overriding the MIDI transmit function of the associated internal Mode. Every MASTER program is associated with an internal VOICE, PERFORMANCE, SONG/PATTERN MIXING program. When you activate the ZONE SWITCH, you are not transmitting via the keyboard according to that MODE, you are substituting the TRANSMIT parameters as setup in the MASTER program.

For example, if you set UTILITY > [F5] CONTROL > [SF2] MIDI parameter KEYBOARD TRANSMIT CH = 1

This applies to the Motif’s transmit Channel while you are in VOICE and PERFORMANCE modes. When in VOICE and PERFORMANCE (assuming LOCAL CONTROL = ON) you are always transmitting to the currently selected VOICE program or PERFORMANCE program… what you are sending OUT via MIDI is determined by the KEYBOARD TRANSMIT CH parameter.

You can while in VOICE and PERFORMANCE mode instantly change the KEYBOARD TRANSMIT CH by illuminating the [TRACK] button and pressing a numbered button [1]-[16]. The current keyboard Transmit Channel will be indicated on the very top line of the screen while in VOICE and/or PERFORMANCE mode. But no matter what the internal sound will be triggered.

When you go to SONG/PATTERN MIXING mode, the keyboard Transmit Channel parameter is exclusively determined by the Transmit channel of the TRACK that you have selected. You can view the Transmit Channel setting for each track as follows:
From the main SONG or PATTERN screen
Press [[F3] TRACK
View the TxCH column which indicates the current transmit channel for each track… the default is 1=1, 2=2, 3=3 and so on. But you are free to change this as you require.

When you go to MASTER mode and you activate the ZONE SWITCH… this is accomplished by
Press [EDIT]
Press {COMMON EDIT]
Press [F2] OTHER
ZONE SWITCH = ON

This means that the MIDI routing is now determined solely by the transmit channels as set by the ZONES 1-8
Press the numbered buttons [1] - [8]
and then Press[F1] TRANSMIT to see how you are set and whether the ZONE set to transmit Internally or Externally or both or neither.

When the ZONE SWITCH is ON it does not matter that you are selecting a track button, it does not matter the setting set in UTILITY mode, you are set to follow the transmit settings of the current MASTER.

If you do not activate the ZONE SWITCH, then the rules of the associated MODE will apply. It is an either/or situation, by design. It is not something you can have both ways simultaneously… You either want to transmit via the ZONE setup or not.

Hope that makes sense. Trust me, I understood everything you said.

I also think to understand what you say.

I see that the ZONE switch is alternative to the VOICE/PERF/PATTERN/SONG modes in MASTER mode.

But, suppose I want to play in multi-tymbral mode 8 voices on different devices (local XS and remote K26): if I try to use the ‘regular’ zone transmission I can only load local or remote VOICEs with Prog Change, without being able to use SYSTEM FX and I cannot assign the MIDI CC I need to the physical controller, with the exception of knobs and sliders.

In order to achieve this task, I found the only way to use the MASTER mode in a - say - hybrid fashion, using either the ZONE feature (to transmit over all the desired CHs) and a loaded SONG with its MIXING (to get VOICES and FX) and its CTRL ASSGN (to get the controllers send wherever the messages I want). The same holds if I load a PERF, hence transmitting on a single int CH = basic CH. It works! Even though there still are some inconveniences:

a) I have to use a PATTERN or a SONG just to setup a MIXING, wasting a lot of memory. We would need 3 USR banks dedicated to store MIXING without SEQ data

b) I have to constantly work with two programs, namely MASTER and PERF/SONG, and editing the MASTER as for transmission issues or the PERF/SONG for sounds and FX. The control set is part on the MASTER and part on the MIXING

c) While being able to assign my control setup, I loose the internal controls of VOICEs and PERFORMANCEs (but they can be recovered by pressing the buttons near the KNOBs)

I am aware that what I am doing is rather uncomfortable and complicated, but it is the only way out I found so far to achieve a complete control. I am trying to simulate the very flexible SETUP mode implemented on the K2XXX.

Do you think it is inappropriate?

And, beside the suggestions at the beginning of the discussion, do you think it could be considered to add specific dedicated banks for MIXINGs and to add the possibility to assign in MASTER all the controllers and not only KNOBs and FADERs?

Please let me know. I believe these improvements could be really important.

Thank you

Bye

Massimo

If you are using all 8 ZONES this may not work for you… but you can assign multiple knobs and sliders to an internal VOICE or PERFORMANCE even while the ZONE SWITCH is ON, and the KNOB CONTROL ASSIGN = ZONE

There is no limit to the number of ZONES you can point at a single internal Program. Say, for example, you want to associate the MASTER with an internal VOICE and you are addressing it from ZONE 1. (ZONE SWITCH = ON)

You can assign ZONE 2, 3 and 4 for example to transmit on TRANSMIT CHANNEL = 1, to the INT tone generator. You must, of course, set the NOTE range so that:
Note Limit Low = G8
Note Limit High = C-2
This creates a “no-play” zone - where the ZONE will not trigger notes from the targeted sound, but you can still control them with physical controllers.

By doing this for ZONES 2, 3 and 4 they will no longer trigger notes (if you don’t set the Note Limit region you will get doubling, tripling and quadrupling of each note-on)… you only need one ZONE to trigger the sound.

Now you can assign 4 Knobs and 4 CS to any controller number you need for the individual internal Program… although ZONES 2, 3 and 4 do not trigger notes on the INTERNAL Voice they can certainly still control it with assignable CC.

But as I said if you are controlling and using all 8 ZONES, then this will not work for you.

I will pass along your particular application. Thanks for sharing it.

Still waiting on improvements on XF for midi control.
In particular zone on / off buttons. I just can’t work the way
i’d like to work when i play. A master controller that can’t turn on and off zones is not enjoyable as a master controller.

I’m giving up on my Motif XF7 being my master controller. I wish my salesman would have sold me a XS rack instead. I was looking
to update my sounds BUT have an IDEAL master contoller at the same time. I guess the salesman didn’t know enough about the
motif master controller mode.

If anybody has figured out a way to turn on and off zones even
if i need to be in edit mode , as long as i can press 1 button
to get to the zone and turn on or off. If i’m having to scroll
though and find the zone then turn it on or off. thats too many
button presses and just not quick enough in a performance.

thanks

Some please respond to this so i can stop trying or learn another way. I have a job tonight and i’m working on this now.

if it won’t work for me i’ll have to try another keyboard.

Thanks again

See page 212 of the manual. Assuming you have already called up the master you want:

Press EDIT

Press Part Select 1-8 to choose the Zone

Press F1 to select transmit channel/switch settings

Cursor down to change the int/ext switches

5 button pushes...OK, that’s that’s a drag the first time but if you can stay on that screen further adjustments are faster: just Part Select and cursor.

Bravo Mecio, ho sempre trovato le tue stesse limitazioni nel modo master.

Thanks meatballfulton. Its better than nothing. Do you think they will ever update that zone process of turning on and off quicker? I have to write down what sounds i have in each zone for my master. Although tonight i plan on using that 1 zone and switching different combinations of the 8 parts. mostly layering and bringing in my layered part with a pedal. Your timing your reply was perfect.

As I can see,
many people are having my same troubles with the MASTER mode.
What I cannot understand is why Yamaha does not add such a simple
but very useful feature, like the ON/OFF physical switch to the zones.

In the XF I did not found this feat either.
At present I am driving a K2600R, but if I can do very much - I must
admit - it is just because of the incredible flexibility of the Kurzweil.
May be fbarbin knows what a complex method I had to adopt in order to achieve this (the document I sent you last year).

However, basically, what I do is using different features to activate/deactivate the various PARTS: foot switch linked to the ARP ON/OFF, breath controller, expression pedal, volume fader, knobs. You can always find an acceptable solution, but the kurz’s way is definitely much better.

By the way, barbin, if you are having a hard time in remembering the PARTs you assigned to the various ZONEs, actually there is a very logical criterion that can help you, which again I wrote in my document:

for instance, in most of my setups I use this assignement:

PART1: percussion, drumkit
PART2: bass
PART3: rythmic guitar
PART4: default orchestra
PART5: default synth pad
PART6: keyboard/organ
PART7: strings, winds, vocals sections
PART8: lead instruments, such as elec guit, synth lead, sax, etc…

I keep these assignments even though I am not using all the 8 zones, so I can always remember where my voices are.

I hope you can find it useful

Let’s continue to insist for having our requests satisfied!

Thanks

Massimo

i can’t find your message to me messio. i wish i could b/c you had allot of good info in that reply that i’d probably would understand alot better now.

Also i’d like to says thanks. i know it involved more button presses than i’d like but it worked. Using the motif xf7 in master edit mode and
1 pressing a button for the zones and the next button for on or off.  plus or minus ( yes or NO)

i still believe that this could be easily changed and also the tranpose could be linked to the 2 octave buttons.