synthlogic - 24 August 2010 12:30 PM

Have you spent a good deal of time with both keyboards?

The M3 is my first choice when composing original tunes. I like the complexity of KARMA coupled with the individual drum tracks. KARMA allows me to create unique randomness with rhythms and textures--tasteful soundscapes--which is amazing when playing live. I also like the evolving pads and motion sounds of the M3. Really haven’t found anything quite like that with my XS.

On the other hand, the XS offers a better library of realistic acoustic sounds, especially drums--better than those from the M3. It’s a great tool for both live and studio use. I spent a lot of time last week composing some new tunes and recording them into the XS sequencer, and was quite happy with the results.

I’m still not sure if I want to lug both keyboards around when playing live… we’ll see.

I have spent time with the XS, but not the M3.  That said, I am familiar w/ Korg workstations and the Korg “sound.”

I plan on using the workstation mainly to compose, so it is rare it will get lugged outside the confines of my little studio.

I agree that Yammy has brilliant acoustic sounds; I think their synth sounds are solid as well (shame the PLG boards are no more tho...). I like their drum kits too (heck, they sounded great on the first Mo). Truly, a great all arounder no doubt.  Kurzweil gives Yammy a run for the money (also spent time with the PC3) in the sonics dept, but their UI and workflow are stuck in the 90s.  Brilliant sounding board though, and their VA engine is lights out.

That said, my sonic pallet tends towards the electro-mechanical and synth side, rounded out by the staples (Pianos, string pads ala string machines, acoustic guitar strums).  I don’t think I have ever used a brass/woodwind/orchestra sound in my life, and “world” sounds rarely make an appearance.  Because of that, I can overlook some of the weaker sound aspects of the Korg because I do think they do a fine job in the synth dept (not to mention the Radias).  I have been reading the M3 manual, and I like some of their workflow choices.  I found the XF manual yesterday and will tackle that in a few.

BTW - this may sound silly in light of all the serious speeds and feeds discussion, but I think the Motif XF looks freakin’ cool. Yeah, I am shallow that way.

shakil - 24 August 2010 11:53 AM

“There is no way I can afford both, so it has to come down to either the Yammy or the Korg. “

You could get used Motif XS and M3-module for the same price as a new Motif XF.

This is a valid point and one I had considered.  However… and this may seem silly to some… I didn’t want to overwhelm myself with too many choices (it is one reason I am giving my DAW a rest for a while).  I wanted pick one instrument and learn it inside and out - both the XF and M3 are deep, yet streamlined.  They seem to reward time investments but don’t allow you to get too terribly lost.

Both boards may be something to consider in the future, but, for the immediate term, I want to jump in hip deep w/ one workstation.

Yamaha_US - 24 August 2010 10:49 AM

If you private message here with your contact info, we would be happy to send you a copy of the “World of Motif XS’ DVD which explains a lot of things in detail so you can study further ad make an informed decision.

Take advantage! I had to PAY $40 for this DVD. Wish I would have known all I had to do was show my interests in a few diff boards (which I was),on a few diff forums, to get FREE shyt. I OBVIOUSLY went with Yam, due to my own personal research and trials. Without free incentives. XS was coldblooded enough to sell itself. Complex enough to need help from DVDs. :)

Without getting technical about it, The M3 got its @SS KICKED and korg knows it, a whole lot of other people are buying the fantom g and motif xs more than they are with the M3, why is that?? well no one really knows the answer to that question...IMHO dude I think the M3 looks ugly straight up! for that alone I would never get one..lol...anyways...I got a source that works alot with korg, and he told me that someone from korg told him that korg is looking to make a comeback and top all other workstations, personally I dont think they’re going to be able too, they’re so out of touch with the consumer, and even at the price they’re selling ther M3 they’re still underperforming.......anyways I think you just can’t go wrong with the motif xf, you should wait till it actually sits in the store and go bang on they keys for a minute and see how u like it.......good luck.

Great discussion. I’m a hobbyist, not a pro. Like you, some time ago I made a decision to compose in a workstation rather than DAW setting. I find it much more inspiring to fire up and compose on a workstation, than to load Sonar, explore soft syths, navigate VST / soft synth technical issues. I realize this is just me, but I the workstation seems more conducive to the creative process. That being said, once I have the basics down, I move things back over to the DAW to fine tune.

I have both a Motif ES8 and an M3. I HAVE spent a lot of time in front of the XS at Guitar Center (thinking about upgrading, but that’s a discussion for another post), so have a sense of workflow / capability on the newer Motifs.

My take:
Sound: Both sound great, but on raw sounds, the Motif just sounds better.

Sequencer: M3 has piano roll editing (Motif SHOULD have this by now) which is nice, but frankly is still a little awkward on a
small screen. Effects routing on the M3 is very flexible but a little complicated. I like the “insert effect on” approach on the Motif.

Buttons / screen / keyboard: Yamahas are SOOO solid. I love the all the physical buttons on the Motif. The M3 buttons and sliders just feel a little flimsy. The M3 touchscreen is cool but not really missed. The M3 keyboard is (my opinion) the best synth action I’ve ever played.

“Auto” composition tools: Karma is tough to beat for sheer inspration. It is very organic and deep. Conversely, the Motif’s arps are conducive to more standard song structures (a little less inspirational). Karma also does cool things on individual sounds (filters and such) that the arps don’t (as far as I know”.

Remote: I really like this on the Motif (and would like it BETTER on the XS/XF with 8 knobs/sliders instead of 4).

Expansion: I have the Radius expansion on the M3 - great sounds and very cool (especially with Karma). No like option (alternate synthesis method) on the Motif.

Sampling: Don’t roll my own, so cannot comment.

Honestly, I think both boards are incredible and and you could be very happy (and make great music) with either. You’ll be best served to spend some time playing around with both and see which fits you best.

Good luck!

Thanks a ton for your posts!  rferickson, your post was a great read, so many thanks on taking the time to write it up.

As I mentioned in my Korg thread, I am simply waiting for the XF to be released at this point. Then I will do a dry run on both boards with my AKGs in tow (I would love to A/B them).  The M3 was much more of an unkown quantity to me… I know the XS much better and have no doubt the XF will add a wealth of great new sounds and raw material for me to program.  The FLASH memory is also slick, as is amount of STORAGE.  Korg lacks in this area. 

Anyway, great thread and your thoughts have all been quite helpful. If I can think of any other questions after I absorb the manual, I will hit you up. And, of course, I love reading everyone’s thoughts in general so continue to post if you want to!

If you live outside of the US you should contact your local Yamaha subsidiary in Spain. 

Although it was produced here in the US, Yamaha provided a number of the DVDs to distributors around the world.

Thank you Athan. I’ll check it out.

Edit - I consolidated these questions with some new questions in a post below! Thanks!  JTR

The sound on M3 is better then XS(in general certainly),especially,for an example,as to E.Piano,I mean imitation of rhodes,wurli...on XS it sounds as a toy,meanwhile as on Ðœ3 it is solid more plausible sound,too concerns and organs...I don’t speak about percussions,synths sounds,which it is much better on M3!!! And what about brass?! In Xpanded versions on Ðœ3 they simply kill sounds of XS!!!
I really am owner M3 and XS!!!
And for objectivity,I would ask this question and at M3 forum!!!)

I have a few final questions/clarifications before I make my decision. I would greatly appreciate your time in sharing what you know.

Motif XF as a Mixer
The Korg M3 allows its INs to work like a mixer.  You can have the internal M3 synth engine playing in sequencer/combi mode and mix that with an incoming signal (from say an external synth or guitar or drum machine) via the M3’s INs.  Can I do this on the Motif XF as well?

I want to run the Virus OUTs in to the XF INs… then sequence the XF AND the Virus via the XF Sequencer whilst monitoring (and/or sampling) both the XF AND Virus playback via the XF.  Is this possible?  I do this with my Elektron MachineDrum and a FutureRetro Revolution R2 and it rocks…

Motif Effects Routing
In pattern/song mode the Motif can have a maximum of 8 parts with x2 insert effects applied at a time; all 16 parts do have EQ, reverb and chorus.

I assume I can control the send/receive amount of the reverb and chorus for each part?  The video indicated this, but there was some confusion about it on the Korg Forum.

If I am starting a song from scratch and I find a few voices I like in Voice Mode, will I be able to “import” them in to pattern/song mode whilst keeping their Insert FX intact? I would hate to find a great patch in Voice Mode only to realize that 50% of the sound came from the effects… it seems as if the Motif will eliminate this problem (for the first 8 voices at any rate).

Motif “Chord Memory” Workaround Through Arps?

Yamaha_US - 24 August 2010 10:49 AM

The XF does not have chord memory, but you could accomplish the same thing easily with a User Arp that had the chord type you want in it.  Then when you play a note the arp will play the chord for you.

I see that every voice can have up to 5 arps assigned to it (even in performance and pattern/song mode).  Does this mean I can have the arp simply play as an actual “non-arped” chord?  If so, I assume I could create a series of complicated chord voicings and save them as “non-arped” chords, assigning them to voices?

The Motif XF Sequencer & External Synths

Yamaha_US - 24 August 2010 10:49 AM

If connnected correctly with MIDI, it will control and also recieve all the MIDI messages from an external synth

This is great news, but just so I am clear in my understanding: the XF sequencer WILL capture all of the CC data from the Virus ala knob tweaks/turns and program changes, etc and play them back? Would it also allow for “overdubbing” knob tweaks/turns of an external synth? The answer seems to be “yes!”, but I am just double checking. :)

Many thanks for your help!

Motif XF as a Mixer

The Motif XF mixer features 16 internal PARTS. These are shown on the MIXER screen shot when you press {F1] PART 1-16. You also have to AUDIO input channels, one for analog input (A/D INPUT) and one digital input (FW).

The A/D INPUT can handle any mic/line level signal, mono or stereo. The A/D INPUT PART has its own channel strip and parameters. The A/D Input can use both System and dual Insertion Effects. Additionally the A/D INPUT can be used as a SOURCE for the Motif XF’s Integrated Sampler.

The FW INPUT can handle any and all audio returning from your favorite DAW software, mono or stereo. It has its own channel strip and paramters. The FW Input can use the System effects of the Motif XF. Additionally, the FW INPUT can be used as a SOURCE for the Motif XF’s Integrated Sampler. (There are actually a total of 3 independent pairs of stereo RETURNS from your DAW.
Motif XF Main L/R which go directly to the main analog outputs for monitoring
Motif XF FW L/R described above, return to the internal mixer via its own channel and can be routed to the Integrated Sampler
Motif XF Asgn L/R which go directly to the analog assignable outputs (these can feed a second set of monitors or run a headphone amp rig for additional musicians).

Insert FX

You can activate the the INSERTION EFFECT SWITCH on any 8 PARTS simultaneously. You can select from the 16 Internal PARTS and/or the AD INPUT PART. The INSERTION FX are actually a part of the VOICE programming. A Rotary Speaker and Amp Simulator for an organ sound - are examples of Insertion Effects for a VOICE. Insertion Effects are just as the would be in the real world. The one musician is in control of those effects, they are literally inserted to those devices. they are like the musicians personal effects. They are real time controllable via physical controls (wheels, knobs, pedals, aftertouch, etc). This is different from those effects all Parts share via a SEND/RETURN scenario (called the SYSTEM Effects).

So a VOICE can have its 2 Insertion Effects activated by simply checking the box on the “INS FX SW” in the MIXER view. Any 8 can be selected simultaneously. 

In actual use you will find that, like any recording studio, there are some things you need simultaneously and others you do not. Here’s what I mean: say you are recording a vocal via the A/D INPUT and wish to use the dual INSERTION EFFECT on that input. You can select any two INSERTION EFFECTS and assign them to the A/D PART - record your vocal using a Compressor and Delay, for example. Once you have printed the vocal to the Integrated Sampling Sequencer (as an audio sample) you no longer need to tie up those processors. You are free to re-allocate them to another task.

In multi-tracking you can reallocate your effect where/when they are needed. With the inclusion of 128MB of SDRAM it will be possible to “commit” certain PARTS to audio, and “print” the audio with the effects. If you require more than 8 PARTS with their Dual Insertion Effects (in actual practice you find that you don’t really need that much processing) but if you do, you can use the Integrated Sampling Sequencer to help you “print” effects and then re-allocate them as required.

I assume I could create a series of complicated chord voicings and save them as “non-arped” chords, assigning them to voices?

Yes. Not really sure what you are envisioning here or if it would work for your purpose. The arpeggiators can be used to play most anything (to trigger a complex chord, is no problem as long as it does not contain more than 16 notes) but remember fundamentally an arpeggio requires that once you select it, you must interact with the keyboard (the keys). Arpeggios are designed to start play when you touch a key on the keyboard.

LOOP can be set to ON or OFF
The TRIGGER MODE can be set to GATE (begin play when you press a key and stop when you let go) or they can be set to TOGGLE (start you when you press a key and continue until you next touch a key). Allowing you to manually turn the “chord” ON and OFF via the keyboard.

- Arpeggios can utilize a FIXED NOTE conversion setting - which plays exactly the chord voicing as you played it, no matter what key is used to trigger the arp.
- Or then can utilize the ORIGINAL NOTE - which will play the chord exactly as you voiced it but will transpose up/down as you change keys on the keyboard.
- Or you can set the arp to do its NORMAL conversion.

The four arpeggiators and the five ARP buttons are very powerful in what they can do. We are not sure what you are really attempting to do with them, or how you envision using them, you may find they are more musical than you might initially think but as we mentioned, you must use the keyboard - as they are designed to be “played” - and must be triggered by a note-on event.

the XF sequencer WILL capture all of the CC data from the Virus ala knob tweaks/turns and program changes, etc and play them back? Would it also allow for “overdubbing” knob tweaks/turns of an external synth?

Unless there is something non-standard about the Virus - the Motif XF has a MIDI sequencer - that should answer all questions about what it can record. It records all MIDI commands (unless you filter them). The sequencer can be set to RECORD TYPE = OVERDUB - if you overdub controllers and mess it up you can simply press UNDO and remove only the most recent overdub. If you need to extract only a specific controller or erase only a specific type of controller data, you can set use the various JOBS to isolate just the data you wish to remove.

You can use the Motif XF keyboard or any MIDI controller device (be it another keyboard controller, a MIDI drum pad controller, a MIDI guitar controller, or whatever)… the XF understands and speaks MIDI. :)

Click thumbnail to see full-size image

Thank you Bad_Mister!!!

Bad_Mister - 29 August 2010 12:23 PM

Motif XF as a Mixer

The Motif XF mixer features 16 internal PARTS (the tone engine of the Motif is 16 PART multi-timbral) These are shown on the MIXER screen shot when you press {F1] PART 1-16. You also have to AUDIO input channels, one for analog input (A/D INPUT) and one digital input (FW).

The A/D INPUT can handle any mic/line level signal, mono or stereo. The A/D INPUT PART has its own channel strip and parameters. The A/D Input can use both System and dual Insertion Effects. Additionally the A/D INPUT can be used as a SOURCE for the Motif XF’s Integrated Sampler.

Excellent… so it does, in fact, work like the korg.  In other words, I am correct in thinking of it as a 16 part internal + 1 part external mixer, allowing me to monitor both the Motif and the Virus @ the same time whilst sequencing everything together. Thanks for clearing that up and thanks for the pictures! Very helpful.

If you require more than 8 PARTS with their Dual Insertion Effects (and in actual practice you find that you don’t really need that much processing) but if you do, you can use the ISS to help you “print” effects and then reallocate them as required.

I totally agree… it is unlikely I will ever need that kind of processing. And you are correct - there is nothing stopping me from printing a MIDI track as audio to the internal Motif ram to free up resources.  While I think Korg’s approach lends itself to more flexibility whilst in song mode, I also know how I work and I much prefer the Yamaha approach for working quickly when moving voices to songs.

Arpeggios can utilize a FIXED NOTE setting - which plays exactly the chord voicing as you played it, no matter what key is used to trigger the arp. Or then can utilize the ORIGINAL NOTE - which will play the chord exactly as you voiced it but will transpose up/down as you change keys on the keyboard. Or you can set the arp to do its NORMAL conversion.

the four arpeggios are very powerful in what they can do. We are not sure what you are really attempting to do with them, you may find they are more musical then just trigger a chord from a single key (that’s fairly easy) but as we mentioned you must use the keyboard - as they are designed to be “played”

I really do understand how musical and useful the Motif’s arps are.  In a lot of ways they remind me of the old “Virtual Drummer/guitarist/Bassist” VST line from Steinberg, but in many ways better integrated with one another therefore more musically useful. I just never considered their use as playing fixed chords…

Sometimes I sequence a Nord Lead 3 from a MachineDrum (the NL3 has chord memory).  The MD is a XoX style sequencer, so I send a single note to the NL3 and it triggers a chord. I was simply wondering if I could pull off the same thing w/ the Motif, and it looks like I can no problem.

I know it may seem silly to trigger the XF from a XoX sequencer, but it can be a very fun way to work every now and again… and it’s not lost on me what the 7K worth of arps in tandem w/ a XoX sequencer can do (especially as the MD can resample the Motif on the fly).  Sequencing gear with XoX sequencers is great for when you want to capture live in the studio electronica/techno performances (just take a trip to the Elektron user community to see).  The “Man Machine” potential is huge and the songwriting comes quick.

It records all MIDI commands (unless you filter them). You can use the Motif XF keyboard or any MIDI controller device (be it another keyboard controller, a MIDI drum pad controller, a MIDI guitar controller, or whatever)… the XF understands and speaks MIDI. :)

Haha… cool.

I do apologize for all the questions and I hope my intentions come through (i.e. that my posts don’t read like some guy who didn’t RTFM).  I have spent a lot of time doing my homework on these instruments.  My goal before I part with 3-4K is to understand exactly what I am buying before it comes out of the box.  After all, this is an instrument I will have for literally years, and I want it to be the foundation of my out of the box setup.

Thanks again for all of your help - the Yammy team and user community have all been top flight in helping out a stranger, and I appreciate it.  BTW, that Motif DVD is fantastic… I watched two hours of it yesterday and have an hour to go today!

Bad_Mister - 29 August 2010 12:23 PM

The FW INPUT can handle any and all audio returning from your favorite DAW software, mono or stereo. It has its own channel strip and paramters. The FW Input can use the System effects of the Motif XF. Additionally, the FW INPUT can be used as a SOURCE for the Motif XF’s Integrated Sampler. (There are actually a total of 3 independent pairs of stereo RETURNS from your DAW.
Motif XF Main L/R which go directly to the main analog outputs for monitoring
Motif XF FW L/R described above, return to the internal mixer via its own channel and can be routed to the Integrated Sampler
Motif XF Asgn L/R which go directly to the analog assignable outputs (these can feed a second set of monitors or run a headphone amp rig for additional musicians).

Can I use FW OUTPUT from my Motif ES into FW INPUT of Motif XF? If so, how would it work?

On page 146 of the manual it says:

[SF1] Scene1 – [SF5] Scene5
Pressing these buttons while recording changes the Song
Scene and Arpeggio settings simultaneously.

I want to make sure I am reading that correctly… does that mean that the action of switching between these arps via the [SF1] ARP1 – [SF5] ARP5 buttons is actually captured whilst recording in pattern/sequencer mode?

If so, I am beginning to see yet another layer of depth to these arps…

However, this is disappointing… from page 14:

In Performance Recording, the following knob operations can be recorded.
• When TONE 1 is turned on: CUTOFF, RESONANCE, ATTACK, DECAY and RELEASE
• When TONE 2 is turned on: PAN, REVERB and CHORUS
Other knob operations and the Slider operation cannot be recorded.

So I can’t record the knob movements of the user assignable knobs and/or any slider movements?  Once that performance is in song mode, surly I could overdub these knob movements?