mySoftware [Updates]

Once you create a user profile on Motifator and update with the appropriate information, the updates shown here will be specific to you.

newProducts [YOK]

rssFeeds [Syndicate]


forumforum
 

Old Motifator threads are available in the Archive.

Viewing topic "Translating Motif ES Song files to play on XF format"

     
Posted on: August 15, 2010 @ 08:11 AM
miket156
Total Posts:  148
Joined  06-28-2004
status: Pro

I believe the XF is targeted primarily at ES owners to encourage upgrading to a newer, more capable music system. As an ES8 owner, I need to know what it will take to translate my existing ES Songs to work on the XF.

I have asked this question in another thread and did not receive an answer that gives me a clear understanding of what data will be translated and what will have to be manually done over in order to play on the XF.

All I’ve been told is that “80% of the data will be translated”. That’s pretty vague. From reading posts in the XF Questions thread I understand that ES User Voices can be loaded onto the XF.

Which leaves me with the following questions.

Is enough room provided on the XF for ALL ES User Voices to be loaded and stored while I convert my ES Songs to XF format? I have not changed every User Voice that came with my ES8, however, I have changed quite a few of the factory User Voices and I do use some of the factory User Voices that shipped with the ES. Is there enough room for both ES User Banks or is there less space than 2 User banks take up in the ES on the XF?

Does Note Velocity translate within each ES Song to XF format or does that have to be done manually one song at a time?

Does the Chicken Systems translator software only assign XF voices that are similar to the ES Preset voices that are used in ES songs to XF Voices?

What happens to Preset Voices that were used in a song, edited, but a name was not given to the Voice? Will the translator skip the edited voices and just assign NAMED Presets with a similar Voice from the XF ROM Voices?

Are track PC, CC, Pitch Bend, Expression Pedal, etc. commands that are in ES Song files translated in addition to Voices by the Translator software or does this information have to be put in manually?

I need to get a clear understanding of what it will take to translate all or most of the songs I have done on my ES8 over the six years I’ve owned it before seriously considering upgrading to an XF. I am not in the financial position to just buy and XF7 or 8 without knowing what will happen to my existing data.

I would appreciate a comprehensive answer.

Mike T.

  [ Ignore ]  

Posted on: August 15, 2010 @ 09:49 AM
Jote
Avatar
Total Posts:  1549
Joined  07-28-2002
status: Guru

Mike, since XF is basically XS perhaps you should research the “Translating ES stuff to XS” subject, which must have been covered in substantial depth on this site. Just a thought.

  [ Ignore ]  

Posted on: August 15, 2010 @ 12:49 PM
miket156
Total Posts:  148
Joined  06-28-2004
status: Pro

Jote:

I realize the XF is an upgraded XS. However, it has an additional bank of User Space, and it is supposed to be able to take ES Voice Files, store and load. The memory configuration is different too. Chicken Systems is writing translator software for the XF so that hints at being different enough to warrant software.

I don’t expect anyone from Yamaha to be on line today, but I would like a better answer than what I’ve gotten so far.

I will check out the XS threads in the mean time.

Mike T.

  [ Ignore ]  

Posted on: August 15, 2010 @ 01:01 PM
Jote
Avatar
Total Posts:  1549
Joined  07-28-2002
status: Guru
miket156 - 15 August 2010 12:49 PM

Jote:

I realize the XF is an upgraded XS. However, it has an additional bank of User Space, and it is supposed to be able to take ES Voice Files, store and load.

XS loads ES voice files just fine. It can’t store them though and I don’t think XF can either. As for the additional user bank - no impact (XS also has additional user bank compared to ES).

  [ Ignore ]  

Posted on: August 15, 2010 @ 01:51 PM
DmitryKo
Total Posts:  1483
Joined  07-24-2002
status: Guru
miket156 - 15 August 2010 08:11 AM

All I’ve been told is that “80% of the data will be translated”. That’s pretty vague.

So you’re referencing the PDF article on ES/MOconversion.

Basically, Plug-in voices cannot be loaded into Motif XS/XF because there are no plug-in boards anymore; also, Performances and Masters will sound different because they do not actually contain Voice data but a link to Voice banks; the same for Mix/Sequence/Pattern data which does not use Mix Voices.

Everything else should load hassle-free and the only “manual” editing to be done should be re-assigning correct Voices in the Mix and editing Program Changes in Sequence/Pattern track data, if there are any.

Is enough room provided on the XF for ALL ES User Voices to be loaded and stored while I convert my ES Songs to XF format?
Is there enough room for both ES User Banks or is there less space than 2 User banks take up in the ES on the XF?

I don’t quite understand the question. There are 4 USER banks on the Motif XF, and obviously 2 of them will be overwritten when you load ALL file or Voice file from the Motif ES. If you load individual Voice banks, the OS will ask you which USER bank to overwrite.

Does the Chicken Systems translator software only assign XF voices that are similar to the ES Preset voices that are used in ES songs to XF Voices?

ChickenSys Translator does not have anything to do with translating Voice, Sequence etc. files from Motif ES format to Motif XS/XF formats. These tasks are performed onboard of the Motif XS/XF when you load the corresponing files into the machine.

ChickenSys Translator does translate 3rd party sample formats to the Motif XS/XF sample voice format, however you mostly get keybanks, that is raw wave files mapped to key velocities and note ranges. AFAIK it does not really attempt to tranlate any advanced synth parameters or effect procesor settings, so you have to program them all by yourself afterwards.

Does Note Velocity translate within each ES Song to XF format
Are track PC, CC, Pitch Bend, Expression Pedal, etc. commands that are in ES Song files translated in addition to Voices

Of course, why should it be otherwise?

If you are using Mix voices, you don’t have to do anything manualy. If you’re not, Bad Mister has converted all the preset voices of the Motif ES to the Motif XS format, so you can load it as a Mix voice or as a User voice and get your sound back. You can also use Motif XS Editor to load the Voices as outlined in the PDF article.

What happens to Preset Voices that were used in a song, edited, but a name was not given to the Voice?

All Mix voices which are stored as part of the Mix will be converted automatically.

There is a potential caveat with Voice conversion. The OS basically uses a map of internal waveforms and effect processor presets on the Motif ES and their equivalents in the Motif XS/XF. However since waveforms and effects processors are different on the Motif XS/XF, the end result can sound different too.

I used to have the ES but don’t have the Motif XS, so I really can’t comment on the quality of Voice conversion; Motif ES users who upgraded to the Motif XS should have first hand knowledge about the end result.

In my own practice of migrating between different synths by different brands, it would probably be best to find a new preset sound that sounds similar or the same as the old one, rather then expect miracles from Voice conversion, and maybe re-record the principal lead parts - this way you will make full use of new features of the XS architechture which were programmed into new updated Voices. 

It should also be useful to have all your parts on separate audio tracks, this will make the transition much easier. If you can’t record to a multitrack, at least record a stereo mix from the synth.

  [ Ignore ]  

Posted on: August 16, 2010 @ 03:08 PM
miket156
Total Posts:  148
Joined  06-28-2004
status: Pro

So far, Yamaha people have chosen to ignore my request for more specifics about what it will take to move from the ES to the XF. Even though they were targeting ES owners for the upgrade in their initial post before the upgrade was officially announced.

I sent a PM to Phil Clendeninn before I started this thread hoping for a more solid answer, but he chose to ignore me. It could be the way I worded it, stating that I’m going to be 63 in October and I have no intention of re-doing every song I have in ES format in order to get it to play on the XF. But Phil has never ignored me before, and at least a more comprehensive answer, even if I don’t like the reality of that answer, is better than silence. I don’t believe my question was unreasonable and I never said anything negative about Yamaha in this process or on this website for that matter. I just want to know what I can expect.

Silence usually means that Yamaha is not going to commit to saying anything and then have it come back to haunt them later if I run into major headaches. That’s fine, I don’t have to buy an XF.

DmitryKo:

I really appreciate your answer. I don’t have any way of recording to audio, no recorder. I’ve always used the sequencer in my ES8 to do my songs and I never invested in recording equipment. I don’t make a pile of money so I only buy what I need and what I can get a ROI from at some point.

If finding the appropriate voice from the XF to replace the voices I used on the ES and then changing the FX on the XF to play the best effects for those voices is the only thing I would have to do, that probably wouldn’t be an overwhelming task. I was more concerned about track information than voices and FX. Although I do use the Performance mode and Master Mode for practice, I could easily duplicate what I have on my ES8 on the XF manually. I don’t do a lot of fancy setups on my ES8. I do use some WAV sound effects, which I have stored on my PC and they are also saved with my ES8 songs so they load with the Song. Not real complicated. But no “official” response from Yamaha employees doesn’t sit well.

Mike T.

  [ Ignore ]  

Posted on: August 16, 2010 @ 04:43 PM
supportguy
Total Posts:  108
Joined  05-15-2003
status: Moderator

http://www.motifator.com/index.php/support/view/converting_motif_es_and_mo6_mo8_data_to_the_motif_xs

This was posted several years ago.
If you have more questions after digesting the above, let us know.

  [ Ignore ]  

Posted on: August 16, 2010 @ 10:07 PM
miket156
Total Posts:  148
Joined  06-28-2004
status: Pro

The PDF document in the zip file folder is what I was looking for, great, thanks. I will read through the rest of it. From what I’ve read so far it looks like it will answer my questions.

I never really followed the XS Forum all that much because I’ve owned an ES8 for 6 years. So didn’t know these documents and tables existed until now.

Regards,

Mike T.

  [ Ignore ]  

Posted on: August 16, 2010 @ 10:49 PM
DmitryKo
Total Posts:  1483
Joined  07-24-2002
status: Guru
miket156 - 16 August 2010 03:08 PM

So far, Yamaha people have chosen to ignore my request for more specifics about what it will take to move from the ES to the XF.

no “official” response from Yamaha employees doesn’t sit well.

Mike,
Bad_Mister would just point you to this extensive PDF tutorial on Motif ES data conversion, which also contains full banks of present voices converted from the Motif ES to the Motif XS (and XF since they are 100% compatible).

I don’t have any way of recording to audio, no recorder. I’ve always used the sequencer in my ES8 to do my songs and I never invested in recording equipment.

Well, unless you intend to have both the ES and XF side-by-side for a while, I suggest you at least record the stereo mix to your computer.

If finding the appropriate voice from the XF to replace the voices I used on the ES and then changing the FX on the XF to play the best effects for those voices is the only thing I would have to do, that probably wouldn’t be an overwhelming task.

Yes, it actually the same as with any synth “upgrade”, though there’s additional convenience of not having to export/import SMF files.

However I’d like to stress one more time that these new Voices might be programmed with different velocity layers and key mappings or control parameter mappings such as ribbon, aftertouch or assignable knobs, so your parts might not sound exactly the same as the original if you heavily rely on these expression features in your playing. In my practice, the “upgrade” of sounds never quite worked, the end result is never good enough to just rely on sequencer data, so it’s always best to have the audio record for future reference.

  [ Ignore ]  

Posted on: August 17, 2010 @ 02:54 PM
miket156
Total Posts:  148
Joined  06-28-2004
status: Pro

It does look like I would have both the ES and XF side by side. I certainly wouldn’t want to “give away the ES” as it is now two generations old, and I would have the original songs, voices, and all the other data there to compare.

I’m sure the XF is going to have a lot more and a better sounds than my ES8. I played the XS several times at my local Yamaha dealer and I like a lot of the sounds on it, as well as some of the other features. However, I didn’t feel it was quite enough of an upgrade to justify the cost. However, the XF is very appealing. I’ve always had a desire to have a more complete string library to draw from than what came stock on my ES8. I also like being able to buy optional Flash cards and Firewire after I get my hands on the XF. I will be strapped to get the synth to begin with, so any hardware I wouldn’t use from the start may have added additional cost I might not be able to come up with at the get go.

When I went from an Ensoniq TS10 to the ES8, I knew that the upgrade cost and the time it took to get my songs onto the ES8 were well worth the time and effort. It sounded so much better, there was no comparison. The XF may not as monumental an upgrade in terms of sound, but everything else it has is very appealing.

Thanks again for your advice and passing along your experience.

Cheers,

Mike T.

  [ Ignore ]  

Posted on: August 17, 2010 @ 04:36 PM
Bad_Mister
Avatar
Total Posts:  36648
Joined  07-30-2002
status: Moderator

“Supportguy” is also Yamaha and he did just what I would have done - point you to the article I wrote for the MO and Motif ES conversion to XS…

http://www.motifator.com/index.php/support/view/converting_motif_es_and_mo6_mo8_data_to_the_motif_xs

If there are additional issues we will post them in an updated article as we get a bit closer to release. No one is ignoring any posts or questions. Please don’t feel that… perhaps you were just unaware that you already received an answer from someone at Yamaha.

  [ Ignore ]  

Posted on: August 18, 2010 @ 09:14 AM
miket156
Total Posts:  148
Joined  06-28-2004
status: Pro

Well Phil, AFAIK, I didn’t get the information that the Yamaha Support guy posted in this thread when I posed the question in another thread. It was a different article and the response to my questions were vague, IMO. I’m not trying to bad mouth Yamaha, I was just looking for more specific answers as to what I can expect if/when I get an XF and take the time to convert my songs. I realize there is no magic bullet anytime we have to upgrade to a new system.

Personally, I think the XF is a significant upgrade for ES owners, and at a price that is certainly very competitive considering the capabilities of the XF.

Cheers,

Mike T.

  [ Ignore ]  

Posted on: August 18, 2010 @ 10:36 AM
DmitryKo
Total Posts:  1483
Joined  07-24-2002
status: Guru
miket156 - 18 August 2010 09:14 AM

Well Phil, AFAIK, I didn’t get the information that the Yamaha Support guy posted in this thread when I posed the question in another thread.

Mike, I’ve given you the link to the article right on the first line of my reply ;)
miket156 - 17 August 2010 02:54 PM

I certainly wouldn’t want to “give away the ES” as it is now two generations old, and I would have the original songs, voices, and all the other data there to compare.
I also like being able to buy optional Flash cards and Firewire after I get my hands on the XF. I will be strapped to get the synth to begin with, so any hardware I wouldn’t use from the start may have added additional cost I might not be able to come up with at the get go.

Well, that’s a good plan, and I guess when you’re done with the transition, you can safely sell the ES8 and put that money into buying the options or additional sounds, if you wish.

When I went from an Ensoniq TS10 to the ES8, I knew that the upgrade cost and the time it took to get my songs onto the ES8 were well worth the time and effort. It sounded so much better, there was no comparison.

Yes, considering that you’ve exchanged a machine with 16 Mbytes of sound ROM to a machine with 175 Mbytes of ROM, that comes as no surprise.

However, here’s my story I was referring above. I had a pseudo-baroque piece sequenced on an Alesis QS6/NanoSynth, a 4 MByte machine, which I was unable to properly convert to the ES. The piece heavily relied on acoustic strings, harpsichord, and some flutes. Each individual voice was definitely better on the ES, but they were just too different from the original and never sounded as good in the mix. I’ve gone through every strings patch on the ES, I’ve tried to scale the velocities back and forth, I’ve tried to alter ADSR envelopes, all to no avail - the new mix just didn’t sound as good as the original. I don’t know why, maybe it is because of the characteristic vibrato sampled in many string voices on the ES, which was not present in the Alesis machine.

In the end, I’ve just left this piece behind, since I was no longer with the band.  If and when I get myself an XS7, I might try to give it another try though :)

  [ Ignore ]  

Posted on: August 18, 2010 @ 03:15 PM
miket156
Total Posts:  148
Joined  06-28-2004
status: Pro

Dmitryko:

I overlooked that link. I thought it was the same link that I was given on other thread. i didn’t real what the link said close enough. Chalk that up to looking for Yamaha to give me a straight answer.

Yep, the Ensoniq was a toy compared to the ES8.

Off hand, I’d say I am not as concerned with the quality of the sounds on the XF as I am with the time it will take to convert my songs. My setup is not all that complicated. When I bought my ES8 I really didn’t have any money to buy other things to install in the expansions slots, connect other sound modules, or anything else. I was also determined to make the ES8 a stand alone keyboard so I didn’t waste any time or money that I didn’t have to invest in a computer system, software, etc. to use in conjunction with the ES8.

I did my songs over again, and it was time consuming to arrive at the 200 plus songs I have now. There are other songs that ended up as throw aways, but I could spend weeks just reviewing the 200 songs I have now so i don’t forget the arrangements. I do have to practice just playing music to keep my chops up in addition to all the time I spend recording, fixing mistakes, and mixing songs to try to capture the essence of a song.

Cheers,

Mike T.

  [ Ignore ]  

Posted on: August 18, 2010 @ 06:00 PM
DmitryKo
Total Posts:  1483
Joined  07-24-2002
status: Guru
miket156 - 18 August 2010 03:15 PM

I did my songs over again, and it was time consuming to arrive at the 200 plus songs I have now. There are other songs that ended up as throw aways

So, did I understand it right that you basically have recreated everything from scratch and didn’t even use SMF to import your songs from TS-10?

I’d say I am not as concerned with the quality of the sounds on the XF as I am with the time it will take to convert my songs.

The XF is not as different to the ES as machines from any other brand would be, so it should be considerably less work, especially if you will be able to find the exact equivalents of your Voices.

I’d believe “bread and butter” sounds are essentially the same in the Motif series, as well as older S80/08/30 (which are 48 MB machines I believe)… I still have a bunch S-series demos from the old YamahaSynth site, encoded in an outdated proprietary format (which thankfully VLC Media Player is able to decode), and they certainly sound quite alike to the Motif, despite obviosly inferior sound quality.

Still, some musical parts just don’t translate well to a different machine…

  [ Ignore ]