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Viewing topic "Has XF a way job-function from Mix in Pattern mode to Performance mode??"

     
Posted on: August 11, 2010 @ 02:02 PM
JLPG
Total Posts:  34
Joined  06-16-2009
status: Regular

Me and other users asked in/directly in the last year a question concerning Motif XS if there was a way job function from Pattern mode to Performance mode.In other words: if you can construct a Performance(with its limits:4 voices&arpeggios;) based on the sounds and arpeggios(created,named &saved;) from the Mix in Pattern Mode.
I mean: if you can record a Performance in Mix Pattern mode...Why not the vice versa function??. Yes, I know that if you want to construct a new Performance 100% based on new arpeggios created,named and saved by user there is ( on XS) a job function 07 called “put track to arpeggio” and so on etc etc.  The answer of Yamaha was that is technically not possible ( OS architecture, etc)to make a way-job DIRECTly from Pattern Mix Mode to Performance Mode.

Now...With a new OS...Is it possible with Motif XF to create Performances DIRECTLY from tracks of Mix Pattern Mode?????? And of course being conscient that there are 3 types of arpeggios (fixed,normal etc) suitable for different kind of sounds (drum,bass etc). My question is not concerning about arpeggios and how they work, I know it.My question is if you can jump with the work in Mix pattern mode to Performance Mode , with the limits of Performance ( 4 arpeggios,4 voices etc).

Perhaps there is no way job from Pattern to Performance in XF...but perhaps there is something similar partially paralel effect with 2 “new” functions described in the official video ( I attatch video-photo):

“CREATE NEW GROOVES WITH REALTIME LOOP REMIX”

and

“SWITCH BETWEEN LOOP-STYLE PATTERN AND LINEAR SONG MODES”

or perhaps they are very different functions that Yamaha will explain in the very near future ( PDF manual, more videos etc)

Thanks sincerely again

José Luis

Image Attachments
real time loop remix Motif XF.PNG
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Posted on: August 11, 2010 @ 02:19 PM
Bad_Mister
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Joined  07-30-2002
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Short answer: NO.

I could explain it again, but let’s jus say the sequencer is a separate mode from PERFORMANCE mode.

  [ Ignore ]  

Posted on: August 11, 2010 @ 02:25 PM
JLPG
Total Posts:  34
Joined  06-16-2009
status: Regular

I understand you perfectly. Yes you answered this question in its moment ( with XS) and “ NO” and the function of sequencer(how it works) is enough. For me this question among others is important.
Amazing that you answer in 2 minutes!!!!! Very helpful for customers!
Thanksagain
José Luis

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Posted on: August 11, 2010 @ 02:29 PM
Bad_Mister
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Good. Can you tell me why you think “going the other way” would be at all useful? Or as you said “Why not the vice versa function??.”

Why?

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Posted on: August 11, 2010 @ 03:45 PM
JLPG
Total Posts:  34
Joined  06-16-2009
status: Regular

Well…
One of the reasons that I bought Motif XS is that you can create your own new styles 100%,like a factory of styles and once you have created it you can play it changing the chords,semi-chords,harmony etc in REAL TIME. I am from the “old school” (piano courses,organ, Electone etc). Nowdays many ways of composing and creating music is to create a bar ( with Motif XS or with Cubase)then copy it many times etc .I create the music ,of course with different tracks, and not only chords in the left hand ( also in right hand) but arpeggios and melodies also with left hand etc. I mean: using different tracks,yes, but creating in real-time and not copy-bars .As you know Motif XS allows you also to play the own individual sound while the same sound is being arpeggiated.Many creative possibilities

With this we arrive to Pattern mode mix. You can create in the track 1 a bassline, in the track 2 drum-line, in the track 3 guitar-line for example, in track 4 music FX ,both of them ARPEGGIATED ( arpeggio created by the user in fixed/normal/etc mode according to their needs etc). Of course you can program pattern mode and assign different tone harmony: track 1 A AM chord for example. Track 1 B DM chord for example… but I prefer the natural feeling creativity of the real time. If I want to change in real time the harmony,chord,semi-chord etc Pattern mode is not enough because it is not conceived for that function. It is necessary firstable to go to JOB function 07 “put track on arpeggio” and name,save and classify it (fixed,normal etc).
If I want to play in real time a theme with my own arpeggios I need to go to Performance mode and begin from zero.Select (another time) each sound,select (another time)each arpeggio,select (another time) each limit note /range...I mean: it is necessary to select another time things that I had just selected (before creating arpeggios) in Pattern mode. It is a bit repetitive task to select (another time) the sound ,arpeggios etc in performance mode. Also you can play in real time selecting the sounds,note limit range,arpeggios etc in Song Mix Mode with more of 4 voices in the same MIDI channel until 16 tracks etc.

Why should be usefull the vice versa function???? : way JOB function from Pattern mode to Performance Mode.Among other things it would be not necessary to select (another time ) the drum,bass,guitar,music FX.
It couldn´t be necessary(another time) to adjust the limit note range in each part of performace, it wouldn´t be necessary (another time) to select the own created arpeggios for each sound etc etc etc

You can tell me that I can make some kind of 4 part performance in pattern mode with the selected sounds,limit note range,arpeggios etc using the same MIDI channel or the same with song mixing mode. Yes but I prefer to create a perfomance because one time is created with the data-wheel you can change the sound or arpeggio for another one created by you or by Yamaha exploring new ways of creativity. Investing all the time in creatvity and not repeating (re-select sounds another time,re-select arpeggios nother time).

Imagine for a while that there is no OS limit architecture, no limit of sequencer and pattern structure etc. Imagine that you create a 4 track pattern (drum/bass/guitar/musicFX) and you use the job 07 function “put the track on arpeggio”. the arpeggiated track 1 (drumline)of Pattern mode would be element 1 of performance.
the arpeggiated track 2 (bassline)of Pattern mode would be element 2 of performance and so on… It wouldn´t be necessary to search and select the sound for each element of Performance,to search and select each arpeggio, to adjust limite note/range etc. With a click from Pattern you would construct quickly a performance, and then afterthat you could also change with data wheel the sounds,arpeggios etc for creating quickly more new performancesusing Yamaha material(arpeggios) or another own created arpeggios.

Some months ago I readed a PDF manual of Yamaha Tyros 3,concretly afunction called “style-creator”. Acoording to that it seems that is easier to create a style playable in very real time on Tyros than on Motif XS.I never have seen a video of that function…

Perhaps Yamaha in the future merge the OS ,architecture systems etc and creates a “MOTIFYROS” ( motif technology plus tyros technology).

These are the 2 main points of “usefull” vice versa function that I mentioned: quick style creator and creativity.
I have explained it whithout mention that arpeggios and their behaviour are complex, you can program or adjust them with many tools etc etc etc as you know.

  [ Ignore ]  

Posted on: August 11, 2010 @ 04:01 PM
JLPG
Total Posts:  34
Joined  06-16-2009
status: Regular

I made an omission in one of the last paragraphs ( I mark it with bold letters):

“Imagine for a while that there is no OS limit architecture, no limit of sequencer and pattern structure etc. Imagine that you create a 4 track pattern (drum/bass/guitar/musicFX) and you use the job 07 function “put the track on arpeggio”.Imagine afterthat that there is a JOB function called “create directly a performance with selected pattern tracks” .The limit of performance is of course 4 arpeggios.Then the arpeggiated track 1 (drumline)of Pattern mode would be element 1 of performance.
the arpeggiated track 2 (bassline)of Pattern mode would be element 2 of performance and so on…

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Posted on: August 11, 2010 @ 08:20 PM
Bad_Mister
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One of the reasons that I bought Motif XS is that you can create your own new styles 100%,like a factory of styles and once you have created it you can play it changing the chords,semi-chords,harmony etc in REAL TIME. I am from the “old school” (piano courses,organ, Electone etc).

First, the Motif-series does not deal with “STYLES”, so perhaps your expectations from Electone, PSR, Clavinova and Tyros type keyboards is misguided.

I prefer the natural feeling creativity of the real time. If I want to change in real time the harmony,chord,semi-chord etc Pattern mode is not enough because it is not conceived for that function.

This you seem to understand. What you miss is that the Motif-series is putting an entirely different spin on the way to work with arpeggios (not STYLES). The whole purpose is to utilize them in a way that can be transferred to the sequencer… create unique combinations of arpeggio types - not pre-packaged STYLES. There is nothing wrong with the pre-packaging of the STYLES, I’m only pointing out that that is one of the things the Motif-series is purposefully trying to AVOID!!!

You can tell me that I can make some kind of 4 part performance in pattern mode with the selected sounds,limit note range,arpeggios etc using the same MIDI channel or the same with song mixing mode.

No, I will not tell you that, because it is not the same thing… PERFORMANCE DIRECT RECORD is necessary to use if you want to play, trigger as many as four arpeggios and be able to record to the sequencer. This is unique and why you must do it from PERFORMANCE mode.

If you are in PATTERN mode, you can only record to 1 track on 1 MIDI channel at a time. This is an important point to understand. And is why the other way round (vice versa) is not going to work for the design concept of the Motif-series which is music production (not accompaniment). The company that innovated accompaniment knows accompaniment keyboards… the Motif-series is designed more for music production… and that is the subtle but important difference in workflow between STYLE based keyboards (like Electone) and the Motif XS!

Some months ago I readed a PDF manual of Yamaha Tyros 3,concretly afunction called “style-creator”. Acoording to that it seems that is easier to create a style playable in very real time on Tyros than on Motif XS.

LOL, yes because the Tyros 3 actually has STYLES - so I suppose so… easier!?! reading the PDF manual about how to do it and affectively doing it, well, post back when you have done it (lol). The Motif-series does not have a STYLE-CREATOR because that is not its purpose.

You want STYLE-CREATORS get the Tyros 3.

Perhaps Yamaha in the future merge the OS ,architecture systems etc and creates a “MOTIFYROS” ( motif technology plus tyros technology).

No one knows what the future holds, and those that do, aren’t saying. I don’t really see that crossover market being large enough at this time. And what would that CO$T?

“Imagine for a while that there is no OS limit architecture, no limit of sequencer and pattern structure etc. Imagine that you create a 4 track pattern (drum/bass/guitar/musicFX) and you use the job 07 function “put the track on arpeggio”.Imagine afterthat that there is a JOB function called “create directly a performance with selected pattern tracks” .The limit of performance is of course 4 arpeggios.Then the arpeggiated track 1 (drumline)of Pattern mode would be element 1 of performance.
the arpeggiated track 2 (bassline)of Pattern mode would be element 2 of performance and so on…

I cannot follow this - make no sense to me, sorry. Tracks are sequencer locations that hold MIDI data. There is no place in a PERFORMANCE to hold MIDI data - so “Create directly a performance with selected pattern tracks” Makes no sense.

Besides the rules for creating good arpeggio or good styles for that matter are deep and intense. Remember it is more about rhythm and timing than the notes. Arpeggios must be written in one key, one chord quality, because in order to function as musically useful devices the chords must be neutral.

For example, no matter what the result the chord is C major or C major 7… all your chords must be Cmajor7 - because to function as a STYLE, the user wants to play whatever chord THEY want to play… the users calls up an arpeggio and plays Fminor7....
the “chord intelligence” engine ‘knows’ to raise the entire chord a 4th, and to flat the 3rd, flat the 7th.

If you are playing normally into tracks, it will make (most likely) a very poor arpeggio, and an even poorer Style. Because the NOTE TRANSPOSITION TABLE rules are very, very strict. Trust me.

I say it everytime: making STYLES or making good musically useful arpeggios is not only about being a great player, it is more about conceptualizing how the data will be used by someone else (not just you) when they feed chord changes into it> If you arpeggio or Style already has chord changes it becomes instantly NOT USEFUL!!!!

the focus of the Motif-series is not a STYLE-Creator, it is focused on YOU making your own music. Hope that helps.

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Posted on: August 12, 2010 @ 07:47 AM
JLPG
Total Posts:  34
Joined  06-16-2009
status: Regular

Thanks for your comments. I understand it.Believe me. In fact MOtif XS ( or XF I supose)with the function job called 07 “put track on arpeggio” has indirectly a kind of a “performance-creator”.My question always has been centered on a faster way for creating own performances based on arpeggios created by the user.
I´m Sorry for compare the style-creator function of Tyros.

Each time more I understand better why Yamaha has 2 line of keyboards (motif/tyros) .I understand also that some people wants Tyros with 88 keys ,yes,the CVP clavinova series,but perhaps in a “stage” format (like motif xs8 or cp1)
In any case,in audition terms, some performances seem(in audition terms)styles and some styles of tyros ( fantasy styles,hip hop,electronic )seems (in audition terms,not in OS internal engineering structure ) performances of motif.

Time will say if both systems get merged into new one, including more things ( example:touch screen with Tenori successor as fun function of a future workstation etc etc who knows?).But time or future is NOW, and now I am very proud of have a Motif XS : yes,it has awaked some “slept” aspects that i didn´t know that I was able to do with music. It has corrected me too many things on recording, on creating rythms,arpeggios...on arranging, on mix . I compare the work on Motif XS as an “artisan” task or as a 4x4 vehicle driving with stones etc. Working on Motif XS gives you humbly,modesty.The name WORKstation it says all by itself.
I think the most difficult thing for making a workstation among many things is not a single voice that sounds good (or even spectacular)but how it sounds with another different voices recorded in song mix mode, I mean,the balance “equilibrium” forming an unity without saturation etc. It is not an adulation,it is my feel.

Don´t thing that I play as pseudo-organist with slept left hand or that all my music is closed into a performance mode ( or an automatic style). I understand what you mean with “poor” results.

Well.From now, my “conceptual OS” doubts are solved so my doubts will be about how it works and not how it could work.

Best regards
José Luis

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