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Viewing topic "A little perspective on the XS and XF"

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Posted on: August 09, 2010 @ 06:00 PM
Total Posts:  2540
Joined  07-19-2002
status: Moderator

This is a post for the many people who don’t post often here on the site, but do follow the conversations that happen.

We’d like to try to once again put some perspective on the Motif XF.

First, we understand that whenever we come out with a new product, people will post with a wish list of things they would have liked to have seen included.  This is natural.

Also we understand that we will hear from certain people who basically only post here every 4 years or so to complain. When someone suggests that we should rot in hell for coming out with the Motif XF, all we can do is the same thing we have done in the past which is to politely ignore them. We don’t believe in censorship because we trust that the majority of people in the Motifator community here are smart enough to make up their own minds about what is posted and ignore people who appear irrational.

We have provided the specifications and answered questions wherever possible so people could get accurate information.  However in the end, everyone has to see and try the Motif XF themselves before they can make up their own minds. That should be possible in about a month. As always, you should evaluate the product based on the published specification, not on speculation that a new feature might be implemented in the future.

The reality is that Yamaha included in the XF all of the things that were technically possible given the engineering resources that were available.  You can wish all you want for your particular favorite feature, but that will unfortunately not make it reality.

We actually agree with people who say that the Motif XF is not as great a technological leap as the Motif XS was from the ES.  As we mentioned in another post, there are two main technical reasons for this.  The XS and XF both use the same chip set and the same core operating system.  This was not true of previous Motif generations which allowed radically different architectures and technologies to be implemented.

Knowing the fact that the chip sets would be the same, we had to come up with a plan that not only took into account the new Motif XF product, but also created an environment where there could be continued support for the XS because inherently there would be a high degree of compatibility between the two.

If you own a Motif XS, you have two choices.

If it makes sense to you, you can upgrade to the XF and because of the high degree of compatibility this is easier than it was in past generations of Motif.

If you decide not to upgrade (right now) , you can take advantage of the benefits of the compatibility because there will be new voice and sample libraries and new software tools that will become available because the XF is a new product and because part of the plan was to make sure that new tools would be perfectly compatible with the current XS model.

What is a bit curious in some of the posts from current XS users is that if we had come out with a radically different architecture that had no compatibility with the Motif XS as some people are suggesting, it would have done several things.

First, most 3rd party sound and software support would have shifted to the new product.  We don’t think this would have been a very good things for current XS users, but it would be a reality.

Second, it might have greatly reduced the value of a used Motif XS in the marketplace. The Motif XS has maintained it’s value fairly well in the fast paced world of technology.

Third , it would have been impossible to offer some of the new features on the XF to XS users if the two systems had been very different. We still plan on releasing an OS update for the XS even though we will no longer be selling it. This will also help to maintain the re-sale value of the XS.  If we really were the vile, greedy corporate ogres that some people would like to paint us as, we would probably not do this, but just force everyone to buy a new product to get any new features.

We thought that a new product that had a significant degree of compatibility with the XS made the most sense , as much for XS end users as for Yamaha.

The Motif XF will be essentially the same price as the Motf XS out of the box with no expansions.  In a very short time , there will be no more new Motif XS available for sale. So people will only have one choice in purchasing a new Motif - The Motif XF.

As the Motif XS is currently the top selling workstation and the Motif XF adds new features like Flash RAM expansion and double the internal wave ROM , we are confident that it will be at least as successful as the Motif XS.

Because of the level of compatibility, the success of the Motif XF is also a good thing for Motif XS users because the larger the Motif XS/XF community, the more incentive there is for people to develop new sounds and new tools.

Sorry for the long post, but we felt it was time to put some perspective back into the discussions here.

  [ Ignore ]  

Posted on: August 09, 2010 @ 07:49 PM
Total Posts:  1588
Joined  11-19-2006
status: Guru

There is no need for Yamaha to defend it’s actions, most especially to idiots and 13 year olds sitting in their bedrooms with nothing better to do. You did your homework and developed the XF using the resources available. You provide specs and answers to valid questions. Nothing more to say. I would not expect that most of the people here are fools.

  [ Ignore ]  

Posted on: August 09, 2010 @ 09:22 PM
Total Posts:  449
Joined  07-10-2009
status: Enthusiast


You are so professional and sweet. Keep it up!

I too would wish for a RS7000 style sequencer and perhaps a little more sampler features. But I appreciate the fact that you guys are still willing to support the XS - that is a strong point for me - your loyalty to your customers. I feel more like a ‘Motif Family’ rather than a customer!

Anyway, please do consider the grid-step sequencing :)

  [ Ignore ]  

Posted on: August 09, 2010 @ 11:04 PM
Total Posts:  563
Joined  08-15-2007
status: Guru
SpongeBob - 09 August 2010 07:49 PM

There is no need for Yamaha to defend it’s actions.

Agreed, but I do like the way you are ready to open discussion about the issue. All we need is truthful information about what is possible and what is not and why certain design decisions have been made, then we are ready to cope with our unfulfilled needs.

Althought every one of us may be an idiot every once in a while, it feels good to be treated like an intelligent human being, not just some stupid consumer without reason.

Thanks for taking your time to clear things up.

I have my money ready for XF.

EDIT: I am not selling my XS though…

  [ Ignore ]  

Posted on: August 10, 2010 @ 04:29 AM
Total Posts:  153
Joined  10-30-2007
status: Pro

I am glad that the XF isn’t that different from the XS, just better specs.
It was not in my plans to buy another workstation for a few years (that is why I chose a solid machine) because it is a LOT of work to create all the setups for your songs from scratch.
I used the K2vx for live usage, and loved it. That is why I even considered a K2661 when it was starting to fail me on the stage. A K2661 would let me keep using my existing setups.
But, as the K2vx was not very well built, the K2661 was already old technology (and I don’t mean the engine, I mean memory and connections) and there was no costumer support in the Netherlands at that time,
I chose to switch to Yamaha.
The idea that a new workstation has complete backwards compatibility is appealing. You can switch to newer technology when the time is there, without losing all of your work. That is also a safe idea when something goes wrong with your XS, you aren’t obliged to search ebay and buy ‘old’ technology.
The fact that it has upwards compatibility (even when it’s moderate like with the K2xx series) is even better because we can profit from each others work.
This strategy makes me more satisfied with my choice for the XS.

But, enough talking about marketing… Cheers

  [ Ignore ]  

Posted on: August 10, 2010 @ 06:38 AM
Total Posts:  465
Joined  07-06-2009
status: Enthusiast

I have not had my Motif for long, but I am totally blown away by all it’s features and especially the sounds. It is, however, the existence of this forum, the dedicated patience and clear step by step help of the moderators that has made my Motif the best jewel of a keyboard I have ever owned.

Thanks for all you do for us.


Bill G

  [ Ignore ]  

Posted on: August 10, 2010 @ 06:50 AM
The Funk Master
Total Posts:  3686
Joined  11-26-2007
status: Guru

You know what sad, the FACT that I, was able to tell, from reading the specs on the Motif XF, that my XS could use the voices that are being created for the XS.. that’s a damn shame, that some peope could ot realize this value and importance to us XS users.

If you knew me, you would understand why I ay this. LOL

I love my XS, and knowing that I am in the near future getting FREE stuff, and a new OS, giving me more control, I can’t and won’t stupidly complain.
ALL AT THE SAME TIME, am VERY GLAD that my XS, can be sold towards a new XF.

With ALL the voices, videos, OS updates packaged with my XS6,, heck, if not for store greed, one could almost make a direct swap,, WOW YAMAHA YOU GUYS ROCK.

  [ Ignore ]  

Posted on: August 10, 2010 @ 07:19 AM
Total Posts:  27
Joined  06-12-2010
status: Regular
Yamaha_US - 09 August 2010 06:00 PM

The reality is that Yamaha included in the XF all of the things that were technically possible given the engineering resources that were available.

That statement/justification confuses me. I am not criticising the lack of features, but that statement looks like a way of saying: we couldn’t put more features because we didn’t have funds and also new features means incompatibility.

If the motif is the best workstation I wouldn’t expect to have limitations like that.

  [ Ignore ]  

Posted on: August 10, 2010 @ 07:43 AM
Total Posts:  648
Joined  07-12-2008
status: Guru

Again as always...very professional.  I like the company ethics and know that it is part of what propels you to the top.  Thanks for everything.

May God bless you


  [ Ignore ]  

Posted on: August 10, 2010 @ 07:54 AM
Total Posts:  1483
Joined  07-24-2002
status: Guru
joseche - 10 August 2010 07:19 AM

we couldn’t put more features because we didn’t have funds and also new features means incompatibility.
I wouldn’t expect to have limitations like that.

Look at it this way. Motif XF is probably the last in the line of Motif-series workstations, which include the original Motif (2001), Motif ES (2003), Motif XS (2007), and now Motif XF. As part of the series, features like compatiblity with user data from previous models and largely similar workflow are very important.

Yamaha_US won’t probably comment on any future products and technologies, but 10 years is a very long time for a series of synthesizers (though it’s only indicative of the great success the Motif series had with the target audience, despite all our crying for new features on the So the Motif XF is probably the last in the series, and I won’t be surprised if Yamaha’s engineers are currently busy implementing technology that should be the platform for the next generation workstation, both software and hardware wise. Things like flash memory expansion technology that should benefit all future synthesizers from Yamaha, such as S90XF series and/or S30XF series which should offer essential features of Motif XF in a lighter package… or Spectral Component Modelling (SCM) and virtual FM synthesis are the lightest additions on the CP-1 which should eventually appear in downlevel hardware.

  [ Ignore ]  

Posted on: August 10, 2010 @ 09:05 AM
Total Posts:  97
Joined  02-04-2004
status: Experienced
Yamaha_US - 09 August 2010 06:00 PM

This is a post for the many people who don’t post often here on the site, but do follow the conversations that happen.

The more debate, the more eager I become to purchase the XF.
As long as they spell the XF right - this whole negative thing is very good for putting the positive in action.

A musician - a good one at least - is always looking for new tools and new ways of expanding the musical adventure.

Since the first motif - 10 years ago - it was a great fun and a big lesson watching you on the DVD. You’ve become elementary recognize as the face behind the motif. And since a musician is always sensitive to voices - then also as the motif human individual voice.

A part of the anger has to do something with this community being the product family for some years now. We have shared the motif existence for some time. Like in every good family. There is nothing better than a big fight.

Well my feeling is that the more sounds packs we have to purchase - the better are the options we have for working with the XS (and the XF in the future).
Increasing the XS/XF sounds alternative options seems to be now your main focus.
Putting 30 new packs once in 3 years seems kind of lazy.
This should be a concern of Yamaha - while working with the 3rd parties that put those on the market.
Already done everything I can with the 10 motifator packs I chose to work with.

Always looking for new inspirations.

A new XF DVD will be the next DVD I will chose to watch....

This post has surely helped me becoming closer to the XF now…
wonder when will the XF become closer to me:)… (that is physicaly meaning - in the isreaeli keyboard store).
I will sure need to buy more sound packs while waiting…
The motif creator seems also like a hot option.

  [ Ignore ]  

Posted on: August 10, 2010 @ 09:32 AM
Total Posts:  226
Joined  07-22-2003
status: Enthusiast

People vote in two ways: with their pocket book and with their feet (or hands and ears in this case). Yamaha has no worries. The XF will be the bomb for the majority of players. Yes, I hate to go the through the hassle of selling my XS-8, but isn’t life about dealing with hassles? Can’t wait to get my hands on that black beast.

  [ Ignore ]  

Posted on: August 10, 2010 @ 10:28 AM
Total Posts:  738
Joined  05-04-2008
status: Guru

I think we all should wait for the official responce about this mettre from radurobert , what he will say that will be true :D

  [ Ignore ]  

Posted on: August 10, 2010 @ 11:37 AM
Total Posts:  449
Joined  07-10-2009
status: Enthusiast

Yamaha’s support of XS even after the release of the XF is the main reason why Yamaha has been my main gear. Soundwise, Yamaha has a natural sound while Korg/Roland have a produced sound (its subjective ofcourse), so I need both to complete the sonic setup.

Introduction of some additional (requested) features at a cost will greatly enhance my respect for Yamaha even further:

grid record!
piano roll!
additional synthesis/sampling features

Korg did it with the M3 xpanded. So I don’t see reason for Yamaha not to do it! :)

  [ Ignore ]  

Posted on: August 10, 2010 @ 02:23 PM
Total Posts:  326
Joined  08-06-2008
status: Enthusiast

It’s not the equipment, it’s the user that makes a product as good as it can be. Yamaha has made themselves widely available to help all the users of their products to get the most out of them. They are the kings of communication and knowledge sharing. And that is why I believe Yamaha is simply the best!!

  [ Ignore ]  

Posted on: August 10, 2010 @ 04:25 PM
Total Posts:  75
Joined  12-17-2009
status: Experienced

@ Yamaha_US:  I’m one of those users who doesn’t post much but follows the conversations very closely.  My first Motif was an ES8 that I used at work (Air Force Band) until I saved up to by my own used one.  Then I saved up for for 6 months and sold my ES for the XS.  I’ve invested alot of time, effort, and $$$ money in the Motif and I have to say that I absolutely love it.  I can’t afford to get the XF right now, but I’m cool with it because I haven’t gotten a fraction of the use this unit has to offer! 

I’ve read a lot of negative comments on here and I think it’s really sad.  There’s nothing wrong with asking for features that you would like and/or having an opinion.  But when you start name calling and putting down the efforts that people have made in developing products, I think that’s just ridiculous! 

You guys make great products and the fact that the development of the XF was done with us XS users in mind, is something that I’d dare any other manufacturer to do.  I’m a Yamaha/Steinberg user for life!

I said all this to simple say thanks!  From your great products, and the great support on this site (which I’ve used often) to your continued support for us your customers, you get and ‘A’ from me.


  [ Ignore ]  

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