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Viewing topic "And speaking of Arps…."

     
Posted on: August 09, 2010 @ 08:57 AM
Donald-M
Total Posts:  665
Joined  11-08-2007
status: Guru

In the discussions about the new features coming with the new XF series it mentioned 1,000 new arps were also going to be added. 

I’ve mentioned this before, but wanted to mention it again, it sure would be nice if someone could create a whole bunch of new 3/4 and 6/8 meter arps fro the XS.  Yes, I know I can create my own arps, and I have done so, but it is VERY time consuming, and I’d rather spend my time creating music than arps.  I have found the 6,000+ arps on the XS very useful, and with the arp midi out function, it is a snap to edit off a midi track in my DAW.  But the vast majority are all 4/4 and the few that are 3/4 or 6/8 haven’t been as useful as I’d wish. 

So, here’s my request again...please, Yamaha, can we get like 1,000+ new NON-4/4 arps for our XS keyboards?

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Posted on: August 09, 2010 @ 04:53 PM
Bad_Mister
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If you are talking about drum arpeggios, these are by far the easiest to create because they use the conversion type “Fixed Note” (meaning they play exactly what was recorded into the sequencer when creating them). This also means there are literally thousands of drum grooves of all types and genres, all time signatures and feels that you can purchase already. Here’s a start: Drums Loops and More: MIDI samples

Remember any drum MIDI data created in .MID format can be loaded into your Motif-series keyboard. And if you wish to use them in the real time manner as presented by the ARPEGGIATORS, you simply can decide which drum groove you like and convert it to an arpeggio.

This is so easy to do - that it curious you find it tedious or time consuming. It will not be more time consuming than sitting there wondering what to play. Creating arps - is creating music (I find that you differentiate creating arps and creating music ... hmmm!) :)

If you are talking about musical (ie, non-drum) arpeggios. Well, let’s talk about 3/4, what would you have the arpeggio do in terms of comping. Musical arps are not about the chord tense, it is about the number of notes in the chord and when the chord is hit. So creating a musical arp for chordal instruments means you will be dictating to the composer where the rhythmic stress goes. I see that creating these is time consuming because it is really about composing specifically for the song your are writing. Why create an arp...?

I think I understand: you want some of this done for you. 

A chord on the downbeat? what you have the 5/4 chordal arp do Chords on the 2 and 3 so you could play Take Five?

I give you this: most of the arpeggio data that exists currently has a source. This source could be a specific popular song (in some cases) or a particular genre has a very archetypical feel. They are not always exact, although some are, they are only there to inspire. I don’t think you should be surprised that the vast majority of arps are 4/4. The categories are popular music… now I know that is a touchy subject - particularly when what you want is not considered “popular” but I think you know when you like a music that is not in the ‘mainstream’.

An remember any phrase you think will make a good arp (and this does take some keen understanding of how arps are constructed) you can transfer that data to the arp… but if you are writing original compositions and cannot locate an appropriate arp, simply do what you would before there were arpeggiators :-)

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Posted on: August 10, 2010 @ 05:45 AM
Donald-M
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As I put in an earlier post, the Motif’s performances are very helpful in finding and/or establishing a groove for a song.  I don’t always have a firm idea going in what kind of groove I want.  Sometimes I do, but often I don’t.  But one thing I do know is what meter the song is going to be in, because I’ve already written it.  I typically start with either just piano or guitar and write the song, meaning the chord progressions and melody.  Then, I hop to the Motif and begin working out the groove.  The perfs are perfect to get there.  So, for example, in a 4/4 time song, I select a performance that works and then I create a scratch track with that perf in my DAW.  I usually record one track per voice, so have the 4 tracks.  That becomes the road map or guide for the players when they add their tracks.  So the bass player knows the groove, the drummer, etc. This speeds up the work flow nicely.

But if I want to emulate that same process for a song I’ve written in 3/4 or 6/8 meter, which I often do, I can’t use that process, and I find it really slows up the work flow. 

Can I create my own arps?  Of course, and I often do just by playing a riff that way without making it into an arp stored in the Motif. 

Is creating an arp creating music?  Of course...but going through the process of recording that arp in the Motif and editing it to save as an arp, again just slows up the work flow.

My whole point is really simple: it would be wonderful to have similar options for meters other than 4/4 to speed up work flow and establish grooves.  So I appreciate what you’re saying that most pop music is 4/4 and all that.  But at the same time, there’s a TON of music, even popular music that isn’t 4/4.

I don’t worry about the drum grooves so much because typically I’ll just create a couple of loops part by part in my DAW to give the drummer the feel once I’ve done the song, whether 4/4 or 3/4.

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Posted on: August 10, 2010 @ 06:48 AM
Bad_Mister
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But at the same time, there’s a TON of music, even popular music that isn’t 4/4

No, there isn’t and that is my point… :) he said with a chuckle… no, there isn’t :)

I know, it exists but we would not be having this ‘conversation’ if there were “a TON of music” that wasn’t 4/4 - tonage is the definition of 4/4. I think we agree.

I will, of course, pass on your request. Just FYI there’s a team of people at Yamaha who are responsible for this type of content. In the past I have worked with them on a project or two, they are on top of not only the most popular music but even the esoteric niche corners of the music world. Granted the Arranger Workstations have a wider variety (a virtual United Nations of genre content) than found in the so-called ‘pro workstations’. But this is as it should be…

Funny story - for years there were requests for a “Classical” genre… and for many years there were none… Give it some thought, you can make a classical sounding set of arpeggios but this does not melt down to cover more than one particular composition… Doesn’t really lend itself to be a universal “stle” of arpeggio patterns, if you get my meaning

Not like a “bossa-nova” pattern which can be turned into dozens of songs in that genre. Or a country two-step, can be turned into virtually every country-western song (lol)… Or a sixteenth note back beat can be turned into almost any EW&F;song (lol).

What type of 3/4
A Viennese Waltz?
A “Tennessee Waltz”?

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Posted on: August 10, 2010 @ 09:34 AM
megassus
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arabic waltz

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Posted on: August 10, 2010 @ 09:46 AM
dfahrner
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The new XF/XS Arp Manager should help, since it will make it easier to create and arrange user arpeggios.  And when will this be available?  A few XS owners have been asking for this for quite a while now…

df

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Posted on: August 10, 2010 @ 09:47 AM
msavard
Total Posts:  200
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Interesting link about this sort of thing:
Unusual time signatures

  [ Ignore ]  

Posted on: August 10, 2010 @ 10:20 AM
jc1943
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Bad_Mister - 10 August 2010 06:48 AM

But at the same time, there’s a TON of music, even popular music that isn’t 4/4

No, there isn’t and that is my point… :) he said with a chuckle… no, there isn’t :)

I know, it exists but we would not be having this ‘conversation’ if there were “a TON of music” that wasn’t 4/4 - tonage is the definition of 4/4. I think we agree.

I will, of course, pass on your request. Just FYI there’s a team of people at Yamaha who are responsible for this type of content. In the past I have worked with them on a project or two, they are on top of not only the most popular music but even the esoteric niche corners of the music world. Granted the Arranger Workstations have a wider variety (a virtual United Nations of genre content) than found in the so-called ‘pro workstations’. But this is as it should be…

Funny story - for years there were requests for a “Classical” genre… and for many years there were none… Give it some thought, you can make a classical sounding set of arpeggios but this does not melt down to cover more than one particular composition… Doesn’t really lend itself to be a universal “stle” of arpeggio patterns, if you get my meaning

Not like a “bossa-nova” pattern which can be turned into dozens of songs in that genre. Or a country two-step, can be turned into virtually every country-western song (lol)… Or a sixteenth note back beat can be turned into almost any EW&F;song (lol).

What type of 3/4
A Viennese Waltz?
A “Tennessee Waltz”?

Greetings,

I believe what Donald-M was referring to are drum arps.  It
should be remembered that the vast majority of the people who
frequent this forum are essentially keyboard players, not
drummers.  IMO, the drum arps in the XS are very good with
pretty tight programming.  There may some on Team Yamaha
who may have access to likes of a Dave Weckl or Harvey Mason for
consultation, but we do not. Many of the Drum Libraries in
“The Shop” are genre specific and again the vast majority are
in (insert drum roll here...)4/4 TIME.  Of the
1900 or so drum arps in the XS, only a mere handful are
in an odd-time meter!!  3/4 time is pretty common, 6/8 time,
not so much.  So, would we like your team to program drums
for us, well...yes.  Your guys obviously have the resources
to do a fine job at it and as Donald-M said, it helps to keep it
movin’.

jc

P.S. How about something in a jazz waltz? :)

  [ Ignore ]  

Posted on: August 10, 2010 @ 05:01 PM
Donald-M
Total Posts:  665
Joined  11-08-2007
status: Guru
Bad_Mister - 10 August 2010 06:48 AM

But at the same time, there’s a TON of music, even popular music that isn’t 4/4

No, there isn’t and that is my point… :) he said with a chuckle… no, there isn’t :)

I know, it exists but we would not be having this ‘conversation’ if there were “a TON of music” that wasn’t 4/4 - tonage is the definition of 4/4. I think we agree.

I will, of course, pass on your request. Just FYI there’s a team of people at Yamaha who are responsible for this type of content. In the past I have worked with them on a project or two, they are on top of not only the most popular music but even the esoteric niche corners of the music world. Granted the Arranger Workstations have a wider variety (a virtual United Nations of genre content) than found in the so-called ‘pro workstations’. But this is as it should be…

Funny story - for years there were requests for a “Classical” genre… and for many years there were none… Give it some thought, you can make a classical sounding set of arpeggios but this does not melt down to cover more than one particular composition… Doesn’t really lend itself to be a universal “stle” of arpeggio patterns, if you get my meaning

Not like a “bossa-nova” pattern which can be turned into dozens of songs in that genre. Or a country two-step, can be turned into virtually every country-western song (lol)… Or a sixteenth note back beat can be turned into almost any EW&F;song (lol).

What type of 3/4
A Viennese Waltz?
A “Tennessee Waltz”?

Not all 3/4 music are waltz. Geesh!  Ever got to a musical?  There’s lots of songs in musicals that are 3/4 or 6/8?  Ever heard of the group Celtic Woman?  They have several 3/4 or 6/8 songs. 

Look, I KNOW that most rock and pop is 4/4, but there IS a lot of current music in genres other than pop or rock that is NOT 4/4.  And, I’m pretty sure I’m not the only MOtif user on the planet who composes music in other meters. 

What I’m saying Phil, is as a USER, it would be nice to have these available.  What I really don’t need is to be told that the request is unreasonable, or why I really don’t need it.  That’s nonesense, and frankly, I’m surprised to see you take that route.  You’re always so helpful, and certainly have been to me.  This is NOT an unreasonable request or expectation.

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Posted on: August 10, 2010 @ 05:35 PM
Donald-M
Total Posts:  665
Joined  11-08-2007
status: Guru

Here are some well known songs in meters other than 4/4, just to make the point that it ain’t all waltz.

Phil Collins: Dance into the Light 6/8
Breaking Benjamin: Dance with the Devil (try waltzing to THAT!)
Andrew Lloyd Webber: Memory from “Cats” 6/8
Andrew Llody Webber: Everything’s Alright from “Jesus Christ Superstar 5/4
Queen: A Winter’s Tale (Frequently played in ballrooms around the world!) 6/8
Kelly Clarkson: Breakaway 6/8
Beatles: Norwegian Wood 3/4
Beatles: Oh Darlin 12/8 (or maybe 6/8)
Bob Dylan: Just Like a Woman 6/8
Hoobastank: Running Away 6/8
Celine Dion: Seduces Me 6/8
Queensryche: Out of Mind 6/8
Dave Matthews Band: The Stone 6/8
Rush: YYZ 5/4
Duran Duran: Winter MArches On 3/4

I could go on and on with hundreds more examples from current well known rock/pop artists.  I’m sorry Phil, but you are dead wrong to say that there isn’t much rock music in meters other than 4/4.  Here’s but a small sampling of well known groups and artists ALL writing music in other meters.  I doubt anyone associates Hoobestank with the waltz! 

The Beatles, Elvis, Queen, Duran Duran, Garth Brooks, even Red Hot Chili Peppers ALL have some songs in other meters.  It ain’t just for classical anymore! 

So again, I ask Yamaha to re-consider, and provide 1,000 or so such arps using some of the Motif voices that are currently only in 4/4.  It would inspire all sorts of new POPULAR music!

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Posted on: August 10, 2010 @ 10:25 PM
Yamaha_US
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Thanks for the detailed feedback. We have some projects in the works and these kind of specific references help.

However we think you should also check out the Swing feature in the Arps.  Many of your references were in 6/8 or 12/8.  These songs could be written in 4/4 and then swung.

One example we know works is Piano Man by Billy Joel.  This is notated in 6/8, but there are a number of arps styles that will work for this song if you change the Swing parameter to about 66%.

In the XSpand Your World All file, there are a number of arps taken from the Bill Bruford Twiddly Bits library.  These are in odd time signatures like 9/8.  These need to be pre programmed. 

However for 6/8 and 12/8 grooves, it often possible to get the groove you need from the 4/4 arps in the Motif by changing the Swing parameter.

Many people miss how much you can modify the arps with the Swing, Velocity and other Arp parameters.

  [ Ignore ]  

Posted on: August 11, 2010 @ 12:16 AM
Dreamflight
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Yamaha_US - 10 August 2010 10:25 PM

However for 6/8 and 12/8 grooves, it often possible to get the groove you need from the 4/4 arps in the Motif by changing the Swing parameter.

Many people miss how much you can modify the arps with the Swing, Velocity and other Arp parameters.

Now that’s a really good tip :)

Df.

  [ Ignore ]  

Posted on: August 11, 2010 @ 07:23 PM
Donald-M
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Yamaha_US - 10 August 2010 10:25 PM

Thanks for the detailed feedback. We have some projects in the works and these kind of specific references help.

However we think you should also check out the Swing feature in the Arps.  Many of your references were in 6/8 or 12/8.  These songs could be written in 4/4 and then swung.

One example we know works is Piano Man by Billy Joel.  This is notated in 6/8, but there are a number of arps styles that will work for this song if you change the Swing parameter to about 66%.

In the XSpand Your World All file, there are a number of arps taken from the Bill Bruford Twiddly Bits library.  These are in odd time signatures like 9/8.  These need to be pre programmed. 

However for 6/8 and 12/8 grooves, it often possible to get the groove you need from the 4/4 arps in the Motif by changing the Swing parameter.

Many people miss how much you can modify the arps with the Swing, Velocity and other Arp parameters.

That is a good tip, and I have tried that feature from time to time, but it has limitations. 

Someone said i was referring only to drum arps.  That is NOT correct.  I am referring to arps in general whether applied to drums OR to specific voices (ie, one of the arp’d voices like “On My Way to UK") and applying those within performances. 

The point of my past post with the lists of songs is that contrary to received opinion, there are any number of current rock groups writing some of their tunes in meters other than 4/4.  And all I’m requesting here is to have arps created on the same level as those nearly 6,000 that are in 4/4. 

The Motif is a fantastic composing workstation...i’ve said that here numerous times.  I use it that way almost every single day...and certainly every time I’m working in my studio.  The many performances and voices that use the arps, and the many that voices and perfs I’ve created myself that take advantage of those arps, have inspired many of my best ideas for songs.  But when I want to compose in a meter other than 4/4...I don’t have that resource available in the same way or at the same level.  What I’m suggesting is that it is long over-due to address that. I’m not interested in work arounds...I already know how to do that.  And I certainly know how to compose in those meters.  What IS missing are the ideas that the Motif inspires when I want to compose in alternate meters.  I’d LOVE to have that. 

I surely hope that Yamaha doesn’t take the position that they only want their users composing in 4/4 with this powerful workstation.  And its not like the Motif doesn’t already have all the specs and technology to do this.  I just want to know that someone at Yahama is taking this seriously!!!

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Posted on: August 12, 2010 @ 07:43 AM
Yamaha_US
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We think you have some valid points and will work on getting some alternate meter arps created . These may be some promotional items and some third party libraries , it depends on what we can pull together. Please understand that development takes time, but you provided some pretty clear direction on things you would find useful.

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Posted on: August 12, 2010 @ 08:54 AM
Donald-M
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Yamaha_US - 12 August 2010 07:43 AM

We think you have some valid points and will work on getting some alternate meter arps created . These may be some promotional items and some third party libraries , it depends on what we can pull together. Please understand that development takes time, but you provided some pretty clear direction on things you would find useful.

Thank you SO MUCH!!!  I’ll be happy to wait for this!!  I gotta believe that many, many Motif XS and now XF users will find these quite useful.  I really appreciate being heard on this, more than you know.

  [ Ignore ]